Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

Started Sep 4, 2013 | Discussions
silyn Regular Member • Posts: 382
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

Joe Ogiba wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ01B5y0Vsk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS2yM9kaqag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8iT3CdFc7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BRhb1wkhPY

Any samples for PXW-Z100?

Edit: FDR-AX1 is similar to the PXW-Z100 but is only capable of QFHD (3840 x 2160) recording with the XAVC S format. The FDR-AX1 uses 4:2:0, Long GOP and MP4 file format.

PXW-Z100 - 4K (4096 x 2160, 50p or 60p, 4:2:2, Intra-frame, 10-bit recording in MXF file format) is possible at a high-bit rate of 500Mbps or 600Mbps.

Joe Ogiba
OP Joe Ogiba Veteran Member • Posts: 4,627
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

No I have not seen any PXW-Z100 sample videos yet but they should show up on Vimeo soon.

http://www.dvinfo.net/news/sony-launches-professional-pxw-z100-4k-xdcam-camcorder.html

"I've been lucky enough to play with the new PXW Z100, very exciting times for videographers - as is tradition in these circumstances, check out the 'Unboxing' video of the PXW-Z100 prototype ahead of the full 'first look' that will be uploaded to the Sony website during IBC:"

https://vimeo.com/72998677

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lancespring Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

silyn wrote:

Edit: FDR-AX1 is similar to the PXW-Z100 but is only capable of QFHD (3840 x 2160) recording with the XAVC S format. The FDR-AX1 uses 4:2:0, Long GOP and MP4 file format.

PXW-Z100 - 4K (4096 x 2160, 50p or 60p, 4:2:2, Intra-frame, 10-bit recording in MXF file format) is possible at a high-bit rate of 500Mbps or 600Mbps.

Even if they were the same price ( the PXW-Z100 costs $2,000 more ), I would still prefer the FDR-AX1 for its much more efficient XAVC-S format.

It looks like it is an extremely efficient format. It shoots QFHD/60p at 150Mpbs and QFHD/30p at 100Mbps. It even has an excellent 1080/60p option at 50Mpbs.

That is going to provide much more manageable file sizes for editing, and much longer and reasonable recording times. For example, shooting QFHD/30p at 100Mbps, one can fit 75 min on a single 64 GB XQD card. With the dual relay recording feature and two cards in the FDR-AX1, that would give you a full hour and a half of recording.

With the much higher data rates of the PXW-Z100, one is only going to get 15 minutes on a 64 GB XQD card shooting at 500 Mbps, and only 12.5 minutes shooting at 600 Mbps. Plus all the extra strain such huge data rates put on a system during editing and rendering, as we have already seen recently with high bit rate raw videos formats.

With the FDR-AX1, one could shoot at the very manageable QFHD/30p at 100Mbps, and then export that to 1080/30p for online viewing and get simply stunning results, as these sample videos illustrate.  Likewise one could produce simply gorgeous Blu-Ray discs using the FDR-AX1 as well.

I think that Sony has really hit the sweet spot with the FDR-AX1.  It looks fairly compact for all the features it has, but at over 6 lbs in weight, it is going to quite heavy to handhold.

The feature set of this camcorder is simply awesome:

Manual control rings for focus, iris, and zoom

20x optical zoom lens

Big 3.5 inch 1.23 megapixel LCD

3 built-in ND filters

XLR microphone jacks with stereo PCM audio recording

Professional aids like Zebra patterns, Focus Peaking, and Focus Magnification

Fantastic 12 hour battery

Plus Sony is throwing in the latest Vegas 12 Edit professional video editing software.

.

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lancespring Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

Very exciting indeed. Thanks for sharing all of those videos earlier.  In this unboxing video on Vimeo, the videographer has good things to say about the build quality and controls on the PXW Z100. And from comparing it to the FDR-AX1, the bodies and the controls look absolutely identical in design and quality.

These both look like they are real quality camcorders.

I may have to sell my Canon and Panasonic, and get the FDR-AX1.

.

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Three PM New Member • Posts: 16
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

Very impressive it seems.

virtualkyr
virtualkyr Contributing Member • Posts: 864
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

I wish the AX1 had FMU capability. That would be sweet.

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jkoch2
jkoch2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,198
Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

lancespring wrote:

Plus Sony is throwing in the latest Vegas 12 Edit professional video editing software.

But what about these essentials:

  • A Vaio laptop, or a Xeon^2  workstation for less than $5k, that might enable Vegas 12 to preview in near 4k resolution and render at a speed that won't require ages.
  • A <$4k >70" screen that is large enough to perceive 4k at a 15' sitting distance.
  • Real 4k Blu-ray (not upscaled).
  • Affordable bandwith to stream 4k video that is not so compressed that it looks no better than phone camera video.
  • Clients who would pay the incremental costs of production for the sake of 4k content.
  • Viewers who aren't put off more by the problems of focus or image shake, which UHD video may aggravate,  than they are pleased by additional resolution they can't see or notice.

???

Two years ago, JVC introduced a 4k camera priced around $5k.  There was some chatter, initially, but not a lot of follow-up.  I suspect that the barriers to 4k usage owe to important factors besides the existence of an affordable camera.

But I also wonder whether advantages of 4k come across at all in scenes that are either apt to be dim (ceremonies, indoor sports, etc.) or ultra-high contrast (sunsets, bright skies over water, or backlit scenes in general).

lancespring Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974
Re: Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

You seem to have missed the main point of my post. I'm primarily excited about the new efficient XAVC-S format. That is the new and revolutionary thing that is in this announcement. Its bitrates are low enough that a good $1,500 consumer PC will be able to edit the format just fine. That was the whole point of Sony creating the XAVC-S format, so that one would not need to buy an expensive workstation to edit 4k content. Sony has made this point very clear in their announcements.

Your criticism would be valid for. the more expensive pro model, the PXW-Z100 which records in the 500-600Mbps XAVC format, but not at all for the FDR-AX1.

My goodness, the lowest bitrate option for the BlackMagic Cineman camera is 220Mbps. And it is only slightly greater than 1080 resolution. With the FDR-AX1 offering these 4k options at only 100Mbps and 150Mbps, file sizes are going to be significantly smaller and more manageable than the BlackMagic cameras.

My plan would be to shoot in the 100Mbps XAVC-S/30p, and then render to 1080/30p. Judging from these videos, the results should look stunning. If I'm shooting scenes where there is significant action and movement, then I would record in XAVC-S/60p

So, you see, I really do not view the FDR-AX1 as just a 4k camcorder. I view it more as being a transitional camcorder that will bridge between 1080 and 4k.

jkoch2 wrote:

But I also wonder whether advantages of 4k come across at all in scenes that are either apt to be dim (ceremonies, indoor sports, etc.) or ultra-high contrast (sunsets, bright skies over water, or backlit scenes in general).

That is speculation at this point.   I generally hold off on buying anything new until there are some detailed reviews out, and a fair amount of sample footage.  Information like that should become available in the coming weeks.   But the footage released so far, including that one night scene, look awfully good to me.

.

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Noirist Regular Member • Posts: 429
Re: Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

XAVC-S is just a wrapper. On the FDR-AX1, it uses the same old h.264 4:2:0 codec as every other consumer camcorder, albeit at higher bit rates. The FDR-AX1 can record 1920x1080 4:2:0 60fps in h.264 at 50 Mbps (vs 28 Mbps for AVCHD 2.0 and 35 Mbps for the JVC HMQ10 and the Canon HF G30). It can record 3840x2160 4:2:0 60fps in h.264 at 150 Mbps (vs 144 Mbps for the HMQ10).

What is revolutionary about that?

lancespring Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974
Re: Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

Well, the JVC HMQ10 has pretty much been a failure on the market. Its design has many significant shortcomings, primarily the fact that it splits the image up into 4 quadrants and records each one to a separate card. And its battery only lasts for an hour and a half.

And the lens on it is so mediocre in specs. 1 1/2 stops slower than the competition, at only f/2.8, with only a 10x zoom, compared to 20x on the Sony.

And there have been lots of complaints about its low light performance, which is why I think many people are expecting these new Sonys to have the same limitation. We will have to wait and see if that turns out to be true or not.

My goodness, here the JVC HMQ10 is a 4k camera, and JVC did not even put SDXC card support into the camera. One is limited to only using SDHC cards with the camera. That alone was a stupid oversight on their part.

And the JVC has terrible wide angle support. Its widest angle is only 42.5mm in 35mm equivalent, compared to 31mm on these new Sonys. I can live with 31mm. But 42.5mm? That is a joke.

And the level and quality of controls on the JVC are abysmal compared to these Sonys.

So yes, I think that the Sony FDR-AX1 is revolutionary, as the JVC really flopped badly on the market. I certainly never considered it, with all of these pitfalls and truly substandard specs it has.

.

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silyn Regular Member • Posts: 382
Re: Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

lancespring wrote:

Well, the JVC HMQ10 has pretty much been a failure on the market.

......

So yes, I think that the Sony FDR-AX1 is revolutionary, as the JVC really flopped badly on the market.

I am following very closely all the developments related to 4K, and I am a person willing to find something revolutionary in Sony FDR-AX1, but, alas, I do not see it. It seems more and more like a feeble attempt to expand its offering of new technologies (and very impressive ones) to the consumer market.

In one of your previous messages, you made a point talking about FDR-AX1 XAVC-S "format", quote "It looks like it is an extremely efficient format." In response to Noirist, who argued that there is nothing revolutionary about XAVC-S, I expected to see your arguments defending your previous position - you do a lot of research and it's always interesting and educational to read insights from you about various aspects of digital video.

However, in your latest post the argument is in essence that Sony FDR-AX1 is good because JVC HMQ10 was a failure. But that may not necessarily make FDR-AX1 better or "revolutionary."

lancespring Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974
Re: Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

silyn wrote:

I am following very closely all the developments related to 4K, and I am a person willing to find something revolutionary in Sony FDR-AX1, but, alas, I do not see it. It seems more and more like a feeble attempt to expand its offering of new technologies (and very impressive ones) to the consumer market.

So you say that these new professional technologies are very impressive and are now being brought to the consumer market. That still seems revolutionary to me, as far as consumers are concerned. If this technology in professional cameras was previously so expensive that only pros could afford to own them, then the revolution never reached those of us with more modest financial means.

In one of your previous messages, you made a point talking about FDR-AX1 XAVC-S "format", quote "It looks like it is an extremely efficient format." In response to Noirist, who argued that there is nothing revolutionary about XAVC-S, I expected to see your arguments defending your previous position - you do a lot of research and it's always interesting and educational to read insights from you about various aspects of digital video.

However, in your latest post the argument is in essence that Sony FDR-AX1 is good because JVC HMQ10 was a failure. But that may not necessarily make FDR-AX1 better or "revolutionary."

Look, I admit that JVC beat Sony by a long time in first bringing this technology to market in a sub $5000 camcorder. Beat them by nearly two years, in fact. However, the JVC HMQ10 is junk compared to this new Sony, in my opinion. The JVC has definitely not taken off in popularity, due to all of the many numerous issues and problems that I outlined.

So should we instead consider the JVC to be a revolutionary product, when it has actually flopped on the market? Doing that would seem rather weird to me. To me, for a product to be considered to be a "breakthrough", it should also be a successful product that is widely embraced. So would it not be better to apply these terms to the Sony FDR-AX1, if it should prove to be a hit??

I guess that my response to you is that I don't consider the JVC to count, due to its lack of success.

It is clear that this new Sony addresses the numerous problems that the JVC suffers from. It definitely looks to be a more robust product overall, with many more professional features. The only question that remains in my mind is whether it will exhibit low light issues, like the JVC has. If so, that will no doubt limit its appeal. However, the Sony is using a sensor that is two years newer in design. And we have seen quite a bit of improvement in small sensors these past two years. The only obvious issue that I see with this new Sony is its weight. At 6.1 lbs without any external microphone or light attached, it will be a real challenge to shoot handheld. At least it would be for me. My Panasonic weighs 5.3 lbs, and I personally find it difficult to shoot handheld.

While I think that the Sony FDR-AX1 looks great on paper, I still plan to wait for some actual reviews of the camcorder, before considering buying it. And I want to see many more sample videos made by it too. Just because a product looks great on paper, does not necessarily mean that it will be the cat's meow.

However, the comments that have been posted so far by pros that have handled a protoype have all been very favorable. We will just have to wait for more people to get their hands on this camcorder, and people actually start publishing footage made by it.

.

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silyn Regular Member • Posts: 382
Re: Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

lancespring wrote:

silyn wrote:

I am following very closely all the developments related to 4K, and I am a person willing to find something revolutionary in Sony FDR-AX1, but, alas, I do not see it. It seems more and more like a feeble attempt to expand its offering of new technologies (and very impressive ones) to the consumer market.

So you say that these new professional technologies are very impressive and are now being brought to the consumer market. That still seems revolutionary to me, as far as consumers are concerned. If this technology in professional cameras was previously so expensive that only pros could afford to own them, then the revolution never reached those of us with more modest financial means.

You missed the word "attempt" in my post. Attempt to do something revolutionary does not automatically translates into a revolution.

In one of your previous messages, you made a point talking about FDR-AX1 XAVC-S "format", quote "It looks like it is an extremely efficient format." In response to Noirist, who argued that there is nothing revolutionary about XAVC-S, I expected to see your arguments defending your previous position - you do a lot of research and it's always interesting and educational to read insights from you about various aspects of digital video.

However, in your latest post the argument is in essence that Sony FDR-AX1 is good because JVC HMQ10 was a failure. But that may not necessarily make FDR-AX1 better or "revolutionary."

Look, I admit that JVC beat Sony by a long time in first bringing this technology to market in a sub $5000 camcorder. Beat them by nearly two years, in fact. However, the JVC HMQ10 is junk compared to this new Sony, in my opinion. The JVC has definitely not taken off in popularity, due to all of the many numerous issues and problems that I outlined.

My view on that JVC cam is that it was also attempt to do something significant. Disastrous attempt. It seems Sony's attempt will be much better. But does it amount to a revolution? Well, someone on this forum said every new camera is a game changer. OK. Just define "game changer."

So should we instead consider the JVC to be a revolutionary product, when it has actually flopped on the market? Doing that would seem rather weird to me. To me, for a product to be considered to be a "breakthrough", it should also be a successful product that is widely embraced. So would it not be better to apply these terms to the Sony FDR-AX1, if it should prove to be a hit??

I guess that my response to you is that I don't consider the JVC to count, due to its lack of success.

As I said above attempt to do something revolutionary does not automatically translates into a revolution.

It is clear that this new Sony addresses the numerous problems that the JVC suffers from. It definitely looks to be a more robust product overall, with many more professional features. The only question that remains in my mind is whether it will exhibit low light issues, like the JVC has. If so, that will no doubt limit its appeal. However, the Sony is using a sensor that is two years newer in design. And we have seen quite a bit of improvement in small sensors these past two years. The only obvious issue that I see with this new Sony is its weight. At 6.1 lbs without any external microphone or light attached, it will be a real challenge to shoot handheld. At least it would be for me. My Panasonic weighs 5.3 lbs, and I personally find it difficult to shoot handheld.

While I think that the Sony FDR-AX1 looks great on paper, I still plan to wait for some actual reviews of the camcorder, before considering buying it. And I want to see many more sample videos made by it too. Just because a product looks great on paper, does not necessarily mean that it will be the cat's meow.

However, the comments that have been posted so far by pros that have handled a protoype have all been very favorable. We will just have to wait for more people to get their hands on this camcorder, and people actually start publishing footage made by it.

I am more on a practical side of the issue. The only revolutionary thing I see about the two new Sony camcorders is their price tag. Some say it's high. Perhaps, but from 5 digits we are now in 4-digit territory - and opposite to BM attempts, it's not a bare-bone device. The fact that they squeezed 4K out of their sensor? Not impressed. Any of the major players can do it now.

Practically, at this moment in time, 4K means for me better editing possibilities that's it. When I am ready for my first full feature, that may change. But if you think about the weight of this device - you mentioned it yourself - what a disappointment. People often ask me if I happy with XA25 - very happy. And it's IQ has nothing to do with this. I'm not a PP. But the size and weight (less than 2lb - about 1.8 lb) combined with IQ, that's what makes all the difference. I can do (and I do) things I could never done before.

Toking It Regular Member • Posts: 129
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

Awesome.

Joe Ogiba
OP Joe Ogiba Veteran Member • Posts: 4,627
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

Here is a 2560x1600 screenshot off my 30" monitor off one of the 4K youtube Sony videos.

click original size for 2560x1600 screenshot image

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lancespring Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974
Re: Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

The size and weight of this Sony camcorder will probably kill it for event work for many people. With that much weight, I think that it would be better for it to be shoulder mounted. The FDR-AX1 looks almost identical in size and body design to Sony's popular HXRNX5U, which is quite a good camcorder. In fact, the MSRP's for the two camcorders are almost identical as well as many of the features. The slight increase in weight it has is probably just due to the huge battery they are including with it, in order to give it good battery life.

I know a couple of local businesses that use the HXRNX5U and just love it. One films a half hour local TV magazine show using it, and another uses the HXRNX5U to produce commercials and training videos for local businesses.

As far as mobility goes, I have to agree that the Canon XA20 - XA25 have a huge edge. Although at only 2.2 lbs, Canon's XF100/105 is another good choice for those who want to shoot handheld.

And that brings up another point: It has been 3 years since the Canon XF100/105 were announced. When will Canon replace them, and what sort of features might the replacements offer? I sort of expect that Canon will announce replacements before the end of this year.

.

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Skier R New Member • Posts: 2
Re: Missing from FDR-AX1 or other 4k offers

I have a NX5U and consider the FDR-AX1 a good upgrade for two reasons. Higher data rate for normal 1920x1080 and 60P recording. As a bonus I get 4K from which to crop a 1920x1080 image in editing. I have no interest in 4K as a finished project for a long time.  As to cost I have paid almost the same price for this class of Sony camera since I bought the VX3 Hi8 camera a long time ago.  It is about what I paid for the FX1 and the NX5U and the time between introductions is also about the same for Sony. I will get one when available and will be a good addition to the NX5U and may well just replace the NX5U.

JamSki
JamSki New Member • Posts: 5
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

I just got this camera a few weeks ago. Here's my quick review:

http://www.orlowskidesigns.com/2013/10/working-in-4k-ultrahd-with-the-sony-fdr-ax1/

One thing I see as a potential problem is each time I format the QXD card, the camera seems to reset the filename counter to C0001.MP4.  That will be a problem archiving and finding footage as there will be multiple files with the same name.

Or, am I missing some option here?  Each filename should be unique, regardless of how many times the QXD card is used.  Sort of like P2 file structures.

Right?

Skier R New Member • Posts: 2
Re: Sample Video for Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX1 and first looks

This is also something I have noticed that is not as good as using AVCHD files from my NX5U . I always use the Sony transfer software which nicely changes the file name to the date and time taken. However with the FDR-AX1 and using the PlayMemories software the files are not renamed just put into directories of the date taken.

When cards are formatted they always start again at 0 and is the same with SD cards on the AVCHD system.  I am letting my dealer know of things that I would like changed for the next firmwware release in the hopes that some will get changed.

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