Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...

Started Aug 28, 2013 | Discussions
peevee1 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,247
Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
2

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

daddyo Forum Pro • Posts: 12,423
C-AF is not the only important thing...
15

Focus tracking may be the most important thing for you, and it is important, but there are other important features -- including 4/3 lens focus speed and accuracy, along with better EVF, WiFi, the new battery grip, and the higher flash synch speed.

Remember that Olympus is attempting to lure more professional shooters and 4/3 lens owners  into the Oly m4/3 camp with the E-M1, and the features (among others) I mentioned are likely to be just as important -- if not more so. Not to mention the 12-40mm and other fast lenses they are planning to release.

God Bless,

Greg

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Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,087
More complex than that ...
11

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

That would be great, but it's not the only thing that matters.

If the rumor sites are to be believed, then the E-M1 looks like a big deal for Oly. If the legacy glass does in fact focus as quickly as mFT, then in one fell swoop Oly has added a whole range of glass to their camera lineup. They can make a strong case for offering a modern, forward looking system meeting a wide range of customer needs that includes working pros.

Being widely perceived as a viable system for wedding, PJ, commercial, and event photographers would be a big win for Oly. They don't need to replace D4's on the side lines of NFL games to have a hit on their hands.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 9,549
Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
3

Tracking speed has never been important to me with my E5 because it has always been not so great at tracking, so I don't rely on it. I won't be bummed if the EM1 is about the same for tracking. What I want is snappy, precise S-AF.

I suspect the EM1 might prove to be good at tracking when more of the "Pro" level m43 zooms come along, like the 12-40 and any future big brothers.

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John Krumm
Juneau, AK

David Kieltyka
David Kieltyka Veteran Member • Posts: 4,816
Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
2

-Dave-

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 11,660
Re: More complex than that ...

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

That would be great, but it's not the only thing that matters.

If the rumor sites are to be believed, then the E-M1 looks like a big deal for Oly. If the legacy glass does in fact focus as quickly as mFT, then in one fell swoop Oly has added a whole range of glass to their camera lineup. They can make a strong case for offering a modern, forward looking system meeting a wide range of customer needs that includes working pros.

Being widely perceived as a viable system for wedding, PJ, commercial, and event photographers would be a big win for Oly. They don't need to replace D4's on the side lines of NFL games to have a hit on their hands.

Jeff, I can't agree.

All other mixed AF cameras, - Nikon 1 and recent Canon, do not combine PDAF and CDAD. They use either one at the time. I think that older 43 lenses would not work with CDAF.

But I agree that situation could be more complex than that

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Jon Stock Senior Member • Posts: 1,608
Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

This also depends on the AF motor inside the 90-250mm, 7-14mm, and the 35-100. None focus as fast as the 14-35mm f2 SWD.

http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/dslr/lenses/14-35_20swd/

"Olympus's exclusive SWD-driven ultra-fast AF system, a mechanically interlocked manual focusing mechanism"

The 12-50mm SWD and 50-200mm SWD will also benefit fully from camera body AF upgrades.  The 12-60mm and 50-200mm have always been a very sweet setup in terms of performance, size and cost. They will be a good pair of lenses for m4/3 users who are willing to carry such "large" lenses.

The SHG lenses will continue to be rare exotics.

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Dennis Forum Pro • Posts: 17,528
Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...

If this new EM1 is intended to be the replacement for high end 4/3 bodies (via adapter) then I think Sony users ought to watch it carefully, because it's possible that in the future, Sony may move away from cameras with native A mount to only cameras with native E mount and adapters.

For Oly, I would tend to think they need AF performance that exceeds what 4/3 users had before with the last DSLR ... competing with pro DSLRs from Canikon probably isn't their goal right now.

I know that years ago, when I tried the original Oly Pen, AF with whichever m43 lens I tried via adapter was dog slow, and AF with Sony's SSM Alpha lenses via the LA-EA1 adapter (the one that uses the cameras own AF, instead of the LA-EA2 which includes the SLT PDAF focusing) is also very slow, so I think a lot of people in both camps (for that matter, even Nikon & Canon camps, knowing that mirrorless is probably coming to the DSLR mounts sooner or later) are eagerly awaiting some kind of proof of concept.  Even with no stake in the 43 system, I hope it's not just adequate, but really good.

- Dennis

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Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,087
Re: More complex than that ...

s_grins wrote:

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

That would be great, but it's not the only thing that matters.

If the rumor sites are to be believed, then the E-M1 looks like a big deal for Oly. If the legacy glass does in fact focus as quickly as mFT, then in one fell swoop Oly has added a whole range of glass to their camera lineup. They can make a strong case for offering a modern, forward looking system meeting a wide range of customer needs that includes working pros.

Being widely perceived as a viable system for wedding, PJ, commercial, and event photographers would be a big win for Oly. They don't need to replace D4's on the side lines of NFL games to have a hit on their hands.

Jeff, I can't agree.

All other mixed AF cameras, - Nikon 1 and recent Canon, do not combine PDAF and CDAD. They use either one at the time. I think that older 43 lenses would not work with CDAF.

Perhaps I'm reading the rumors wrong, but isn't the idea of the E-M1 to include PDAF in addition to CDAF?  If so, it seems plausible that the older 43 lenses would be focused PDAF style, or perhaps with some new hybrid algorithm.  Just hitting E-5 speed would seem like a big win for Oly for a lot of applications.

Am I reading your note wrong?

But I agree that situation could be more complex than that

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 11,660
Re: More complex than that ...
1

Jeff wrote:

s_grins wrote:

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

That would be great, but it's not the only thing that matters.

If the rumor sites are to be believed, then the E-M1 looks like a big deal for Oly. If the legacy glass does in fact focus as quickly as mFT, then in one fell swoop Oly has added a whole range of glass to their camera lineup. They can make a strong case for offering a modern, forward looking system meeting a wide range of customer needs that includes working pros.

Being widely perceived as a viable system for wedding, PJ, commercial, and event photographers would be a big win for Oly. They don't need to replace D4's on the side lines of NFL games to have a hit on their hands.

Jeff, I can't agree.

All other mixed AF cameras, - Nikon 1 and recent Canon, do not combine PDAF and CDAD. They use either one at the time. I think that older 43 lenses would not work with CDAF.

Perhaps I'm reading the rumors wrong, but isn't the idea of the E-M1 to include PDAF in addition to CDAF? If so, it seems plausible that the older 43 lenses would be focused PDAF style, or perhaps with some new hybrid algorithm. Just hitting E-5 speed would seem like a big win for Oly for a lot of applications.

Am I reading your note wrong?

But I agree that situation could be more complex than that

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You're reading rumors right. You're reading my note wrong.

The only point of my reply was that there is a huge chance that older M43 lenses could use only PDAF. I believe that PDAF can't be combined with CDAF. You (or camera automatics) will select what AF to use. Speed of PDAF still remains to be confirmed, because this PDAF is different from traditional

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Hen3ry
Hen3ry Forum Pro • Posts: 18,218
Nah! Built in flash is the key! Or maybe its nice looks. :)

And being small and compact.

It sure looks the business, you have to admit.

Cheers, geoff

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Ejvaccaro Forum Member • Posts: 68
Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
2

If the rumor reports are true then the E-M1 focuses as fast with most 4/3 lenses as it does with m4/3 lenses and somewhat better then the E-5.  If this holds true in testing, then they got the on chip PDAF right.  CDAF with the new 12-40 is rumored to be very fast as well.

There has been nothing that I have come across posted about C-AF capabilities.  We are going to have to wait & see on this one.  However, the if E-M1 can successfully manage tracking countinuous autofocus at high frame rates and has the IQ and dynamic range found in the E-P5 then Olympus has a real winner on its hands that may prove to be more signficant than the E-M5.

For me, I already own an E-M5.  I am really looking forward to the 12-40 f/2.8 lens as I have been hoping for an alternative to the CA issues of the Panasonc 12-35mm.

Whatever the outcome, these are exciting times for m43 and 4/3 owners as well

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Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,087
Re: More complex than that ...

s_grins wrote:

Jeff wrote:

s_grins wrote:

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

That would be great, but it's not the only thing that matters.

If the rumor sites are to be believed, then the E-M1 looks like a big deal for Oly. If the legacy glass does in fact focus as quickly as mFT, then in one fell swoop Oly has added a whole range of glass to their camera lineup. They can make a strong case for offering a modern, forward looking system meeting a wide range of customer needs that includes working pros.

Being widely perceived as a viable system for wedding, PJ, commercial, and event photographers would be a big win for Oly. They don't need to replace D4's on the side lines of NFL games to have a hit on their hands.

Jeff, I can't agree.

All other mixed AF cameras, - Nikon 1 and recent Canon, do not combine PDAF and CDAD. They use either one at the time. I think that older 43 lenses would not work with CDAF.

Perhaps I'm reading the rumors wrong, but isn't the idea of the E-M1 to include PDAF in addition to CDAF? If so, it seems plausible that the older 43 lenses would be focused PDAF style, or perhaps with some new hybrid algorithm. Just hitting E-5 speed would seem like a big win for Oly for a lot of applications.

Am I reading your note wrong?

But I agree that situation could be more complex than that

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You're reading rumors right. You're reading my note wrong.

The only point of my reply was that there is a huge chance that older M43 lenses could use only PDAF. I believe that PDAF can't be combined with CDAF. You (or camera automatics) will select what AF to use. Speed of PDAF still remains to be confirmed, because this PDAF is different from traditional

Fair enough.  I'm thinking that it wouldn't take too much engineering for the camera body to determine what lens has been mounted, then choose an appropriate focus algorithm.  But we'll know soon enough.

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SHood Veteran Member • Posts: 4,919
Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
1

Jon Stock wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

This also depends on the AF motor inside the 90-250mm, 7-14mm, and the 35-100. None focus as fast as the 14-35mm f2 SWD.

http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/dslr/lenses/14-35_20swd/

"Olympus's exclusive SWD-driven ultra-fast AF system, a mechanically interlocked manual focusing mechanism"

The 12-50mm SWD and 50-200mm SWD will also benefit fully from camera body AF upgrades.  The 12-60mm and 50-200mm have always been a very sweet setup in terms of performance, size and cost. They will be a good pair of lenses for m4/3 users who are willing to carry such "large" lenses.

The SHG lenses will continue to be rare exotics.

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Jon

Totally agree.  The 90-250 would not be the best lens to test AF speed.  No way could it track at 9fps regardless of body.  It is unfortunate that Olympus stopped making 43 lenses before a long prime with SWD could be developed.  A 300mm F4 SWD would be a big seller with the E-M1.  Primes are also usually better at tracking than Zooms in most cases.

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nzmacro
nzmacro Forum Pro • Posts: 14,485
That's great to know thanks

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

In that case I'll just grab a Canon 1Dx

So for you personally that's what it means. The only time I use 10 FPS is on a perched or static bird (pre focused, etc), never on a BIF and never for sports, always a slow burst on those. A little different to what you thought huh

You need to stop second guessing if you don't know the subjects and what it takes. Macro would be single frame only and I'm fairly sure at a rough guess, it would handle macro just fine.

I wish some wouldn't guess what suits other people, we are all different in case you didn't know.

All the best.

Danny.

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OP peevee1 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,247
Re: C-AF is not the only important thing...
1

daddyo wrote:

Focus tracking may be the most important thing for you,

I am talking about me, only about E-M1 sales. I will not buy it in any case.

and it is important, but there are other important features -- including 4/3 lens focus speed and accuracy,

Accuracy is good enough now. Speed is most important for shooting moving subjects, and without tracking is useless anyway.

along with better EVF,

Competitors have it much cheaper than $1,500. NEX-6. Want to sell a camera for $1,500 - make it fast and low-latency, a few extra details over E-M5 do not matter anyway. How would you use those extra-small details for your composition?

WiFi,

EyeFi. $200 cameras, not $1,500. Useless anyway.

the new battery grip,

New is bad, meaning you cannot reuse the old one, adding another few hundred to the price.

and the higher flash synch speed.

1/320 vs 1/250 does not matter and would not make or break A SINGLE SALE. Anyway, cheaper competitor have it (GX7, E-P5).

Remember that Olympus is attempting to lure more professional shooters

For $1,500, professional shooters can buy 6D, and if E-M5 cannot do something 6D can, they will buy 6D (or cheaper 7D, 70D, D7100, $500 k-30...)

and 4/3 lens owners into the Oly m4/3 camp with the E-M1, and the features (among others) I mentioned are likely to be just as important -- if not more so.

Not a single one worth more than a couple of $, altogether maybe $10. Not a single one not available from competition for MUCH cheaper, so no sale.

Not to mention the 12-40mm and other fast lenses they are planning to release.

Let's not change the subject, I am talking about E-M1.

OP peevee1 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,247
Re: More complex than that ...
1

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

That would be great, but it's not the only thing that matters.

If the rumor sites are to be believed, then the E-M1 looks like a big deal for Oly. If the legacy glass does in fact focus as quickly as mFT, then in one fell swoop Oly has added a whole range of glass to their camera lineup.

All that glass can be used on existing m43. If cannot, like for sports/birds etc, then the fast subject tracking with that glass is required. And I am sorry, people would only buy $6,000 Olympus lens only if it can replace $13,000 Canon lens or $7,000 Nikon lens with teleconvertor, and if Olympus cannot do fast tracking, it cannot replace Canon/Nikon because they can.

They can make a strong case for offering a modern, forward looking system meeting a wide range of customer needs that includes working pros.

But only if they have fast tracking C-AF, because no S-AF, even as fast as Oly E-M5 with 12-50, can RELIABLY shoot moving targets.

Being widely perceived as a viable system for wedding, PJ, commercial, and event photographers would be a big win for Oly.

E-M5 is NOW viable for many of those. As well as, say, $500 Pentax k-30. They want $1,500, they have to aim higher than that. Very simple.

They don't need to replace D4's on the side lines of NFL games to have a hit on their hands.

They would do great to better 7D/D7100 on the side lines of children games. But not at $1,500.

OP peevee1 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,247
Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
1

jkrumm wrote:

Tracking speed has never been important to me with my E5 because it has always been not so great at tracking, so I don't rely on it.

And that is why most people who were willing to pay that kind of money bought 7D or D300s instead.

I won't be bummed if the EM1 is about the same for tracking. What I want is snappy, precise S-AF.

You have it with almost all m43 lenses now. Competitors have it with their lenses on any camera, even for $400. Number of 4/3 owners is low enough that neither Oly no Pany could keep 4/3 system going, and E-M1 is not even replacement for all of them, so for success it needs to lure new users, who cannot buy a better camera cheaper.

I suspect the EM1 might prove to be good at tracking when more of the "Pro" level m43 zooms come along, like the 12-40 and any future big brothers.

Will see. It will live or die on this one feature, if they indeed price it at $1,500 or higher. Because everything else is available on cheaper cameras.

OP peevee1 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,247
Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT

David Kieltyka wrote:

-Dave-

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

Pete Berry Senior Member • Posts: 2,946
You obviously aren't aware of....
5

...the extraordinary Oly 4/3 lenses this opens up to be used with a state-of-the-art m4/3 sensor.

Who else has fixed f/2.0 zooms covering 28-70, and 70-100mm, that are of unparalled quality?  A hand-holdable 300mm/2.0 equivalent amont the world's few almost perfect lenses? A 600mm/2.8 that doesn't need wheels? Or the more mundane, but still quite excellent 24-120mm/2.8-4.0, or the 100-400mm/2.8-3.5 that's an excellent 800mm/7.1 with the EC-20 2X extender?

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