Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

Started Aug 6, 2013 | Discussions
s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,305
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding
1

Anders W wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

It's not an either or situation. It's both and. This particular lens gives rise to banding when used with the newest MFT sensor (E-M5, E-PL5, E-PM2, E-P5, GH3). The problem has been tested and analyzed very carefully (see the links in the OP and a lot of threads before that). It has also been officially recognized by both Olympus and Panasonic.

I follow the discussions and testings related to banding with Lumix 1.7/20 for a long time, and I did find any evidence that this lens is responsible. The only "guilt" of the lens is that majority of low light/high ISO/PP shots are taken with it.

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YuriS Regular Member • Posts: 337
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding
1

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

Hi! I discussed the issue once at DpReview so there are my opinions:

There is a lens issue - induction impact of huge spring assembled into the lens. Please see it here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/29/dissected-panasonics-lumix-g-14mm-and-20mm-prime-lenses/

Why - Just facts:

1. It is related ONLY to Pana 20mm f1.7. No other lens have it.

2. It appears only at high ISO, then sensitivity of sensor is very high. Electro sensitivity means not only sensitivity to light, but sensitivity to other  electromagnetic waves, so the spring may work like a inductor / antenna.

3. As everybody know it cannot be solved by firmware update – means problem not in programming but in physical impact.

Of course I cannot prove it, I need to disassemble my Pana 20mm f1.7 – never do it! But maybe somebody who has enough experience will try to figure it out.

Original tread: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50606731

Pictures: http://natalispalette.jimdo.com/photo/panasonic-lumix-g-20-mm-f-1-7-asph-lens/

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agray88 Regular Member • Posts: 309
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding
2

s_grins wrote:

Anders W wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

It's not an either or situation. It's both and. This particular lens gives rise to banding when used with the newest MFT sensor (E-M5, E-PL5, E-PM2, E-P5, GH3). The problem has been tested and analyzed very carefully (see the links in the OP and a lot of threads before that). It has also been officially recognized by both Olympus and Panasonic.

I follow the discussions and testings related to banding with Lumix 1.7/20 for a long time, and I did find any evidence that this lens is responsible. The only "guilt" of the lens is that majority of low light/high ISO/PP shots are taken with it.

Wouldn't the lack of banding with so many other lenses using the new generation MFt sensors at high ISO point to a lens fault? Seems logical to me.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding
2

s_grins wrote:

Anders W wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

It's not an either or situation. It's both and. This particular lens gives rise to banding when used with the newest MFT sensor (E-M5, E-PL5, E-PM2, E-P5, GH3). The problem has been tested and analyzed very carefully (see the links in the OP and a lot of threads before that). It has also been officially recognized by both Olympus and Panasonic.

I follow the discussions and testings related to banding with Lumix 1.7/20 for a long time, and I did find any evidence that this lens is responsible. The only "guilt" of the lens is that majority of low light/high ISO/PP shots are taken with it.

If you were right, why would Oly and Pany both say that this is a problem specifically with the 20/1.7 (not other lenses) and why would other lenses not show similar banding when shot under the same conditions (as for the most part they don't)?

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,305
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

agray88 wrote:

s_grins wrote:

Anders W wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

It's not an either or situation. It's both and. This particular lens gives rise to banding when used with the newest MFT sensor (E-M5, E-PL5, E-PM2, E-P5, GH3). The problem has been tested and analyzed very carefully (see the links in the OP and a lot of threads before that). It has also been officially recognized by both Olympus and Panasonic.

I follow the discussions and testings related to banding with Lumix 1.7/20 for a long time, and I did find any evidence that this lens is responsible. The only "guilt" of the lens is that majority of low light/high ISO/PP shots are taken with it.

Wouldn't the lack of banding with so many other lenses using the new generation MFt sensors at high ISO point to a lens fault? Seems logical to me.

This is exactly my point. I can't do this test by myself because I use panasonic cameras with Panasonic sensors, and I can't produce any banding with any lenses.

One exception: when I pull out detail from the shadows of well underexposed shots, sometimes I have bandins, especially at brighter areas, but it is not about lens, it is about my mistakes.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

YuriS wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

Hi! I discussed the issue once at DpReview so there are my opinions:

There is a lens issue - induction impact of huge spring assembled into the lens. Please see it here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/29/dissected-panasonics-lumix-g-14mm-and-20mm-prime-lenses/

Why - Just facts:

1. It is related ONLY to Pana 20mm f1.7. No other lens have it.

2. It appears only at high ISO, then sensitivity of sensor is very high. Electro sensitivity means not only sensitivity to light, but sensitivity to other electromagnetic waves, so the spring may work like a inductor / antenna.

3. As everybody know it cannot be solved by firmware update – means problem not in programming but in physical impact.

Of course I cannot prove it, I need to disassemble my Pana 20mm f1.7 – never do it! But maybe somebody who has enough experience will try to figure it out.

Original tread: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50606731

Pictures: http://natalispalette.jimdo.com/photo/panasonic-lumix-g-20-mm-f-1-7-asph-lens/

It's a lens-and-sensor issue. A certain sensor (the newest MFT sensor) and a certain lens (the 20/1.7) together results in banding. Use another lens or another sensor and the problem disappears (or is much less common/prominent).

I am not sure the spring is involved though. I am not afraid to open up my 20 and temporarily remove the spring (I have already done that for other reasons) so I might eventually get around to testing whether it makes any difference with regard to banding if the spring is there or not. But no promises.

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,305
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

YuriS wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

Hi! I discussed the issue once at DpReview so there are my opinions:

There is a lens issue - induction impact of huge spring assembled into the lens. Please see it here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/29/dissected-panasonics-lumix-g-14mm-and-20mm-prime-lenses/

Why - Just facts:

1. It is related ONLY to Pana 20mm f1.7. No other lens have it.

2. It appears only at high ISO, then sensitivity of sensor is very high. Electro sensitivity means not only sensitivity to light, but sensitivity to other electromagnetic waves, so the spring may work like a inductor / antenna.

3. As everybody know it cannot be solved by firmware update – means problem not in programming but in physical impact.

Of course I cannot prove it, I need to disassemble my Pana 20mm f1.7 – never do it! But maybe somebody who has enough experience will try to figure it out.

Original tread: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50606731

Pictures: http://natalispalette.jimdo.com/photo/panasonic-lumix-g-20-mm-f-1-7-asph-lens/

Good to meet you again:

Your link to the dissected lens proves just opposite. What you call a spring is a real spring, not a coil. Induction impact is a product of your poor imagination.

You have provided me excellent excuse for my ignorance

Thanks a lot.

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Etruscello Regular Member • Posts: 133
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - AF Video Hunting

Does the greater AF speed of the new 20mm f1.7 show itself during video capture?  My old version has the annoying habit of hunting during video.  Tom

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markintosh13
markintosh13 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,370
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

doesn't the Panasonic GH3 manual acknowledge the possibility of stripes appearing when using the 20mm and high ISO?

s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,305
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

markintosh13 wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

doesn't the Panasonic GH3 manual acknowledge the possibility of stripes appearing when using the 20mm and high ISO?

I have GH2. And I do not care... if Panasonic acknowledged this, it sounds more like a disclaimer (just in case someone tries to sue the company).

I've seen it with many Panasonic products. Manual for Panasonic microwave states that Panasonic is not responsible for fire caused by drying wet shoes inside MW.

Again, if banding appears only at high ISO, it is not the lens, it is a sensor. If it could be a lens, you should see banding at any ISO.

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,305
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

Anders W wrote:

YuriS wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

Hi! I discussed the issue once at DpReview so there are my opinions:

There is a lens issue - induction impact of huge spring assembled into the lens. Please see it here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/29/dissected-panasonics-lumix-g-14mm-and-20mm-prime-lenses/

Why - Just facts:

1. It is related ONLY to Pana 20mm f1.7. No other lens have it.

2. It appears only at high ISO, then sensitivity of sensor is very high. Electro sensitivity means not only sensitivity to light, but sensitivity to other electromagnetic waves, so the spring may work like a inductor / antenna.

3. As everybody know it cannot be solved by firmware update – means problem not in programming but in physical impact.

Of course I cannot prove it, I need to disassemble my Pana 20mm f1.7 – never do it! But maybe somebody who has enough experience will try to figure it out.

Original tread: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50606731

Pictures: http://natalispalette.jimdo.com/photo/panasonic-lumix-g-20-mm-f-1-7-asph-lens/

It's a lens-and-sensor issue. A certain sensor (the newest MFT sensor) and a certain lens (the 20/1.7) together results in banding. Use another lens or another sensor and the problem disappears (or is much less common/prominent).

I am not sure the spring is involved though. I am not afraid to open up my 20 and temporarily remove the spring (I have already done that for other reasons) so I might eventually get around to testing whether it makes any difference with regard to banding if the spring is there or not. But no promises.

Anders, try instead another lens under identical conditions.

Spring inside the lens is a pure mechanical  with the purpose to eliminate flex between moving parts

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,305
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - AF Video Hunting

Etruscello wrote:

Does the greater AF speed of the new 20mm f1.7 show itself during video capture? My old version has the annoying habit of hunting during video. Tom

Sorry, I do not know. Maybe or maybe not.

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YuriS Regular Member • Posts: 337
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding
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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

s_grins wrote:

markintosh13 wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

doesn't the Panasonic GH3 manual acknowledge the possibility of stripes appearing when using the 20mm and high ISO?

I have GH2. And I do not care... if Panasonic acknowledged this, it sounds more like a disclaimer (just in case someone tries to sue the company).

They do acknowledge it in the manual and the reason is not that this is something they could be sued for (or avoid being sued for by mentioning it in the manual).

I've seen it with many Panasonic products. Manual for Panasonic microwave states that Panasonic is not responsible for fire caused by drying wet shoes inside MW.

Again, if banding appears only at high ISO, it is not the lens, it is a sensor. If it could be a lens, you should see banding at any ISO.

If you see it with this particular lens and this particular sensor, not with other lenses on the same sensor and not with the same lens on another sensor, it is the lens and the sensor.

As to ISO, you can see it with the camera set to any ISO. It's just a matter of how hard you push the shot in PP.

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agachart Regular Member • Posts: 279
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

tsi wrote:

agachart wrote:

Auto Focus is faster(2x-3x) than old version and still fast on low light target

I cannot confirm this.

Auto Focus speed is almost the same in my case.

do you have 20mm f1.7?

http://www.autofourthirds.com/forums/index.php?topic=15700.0

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

s_grins wrote:

Anders W wrote:

YuriS wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

Hi! I discussed the issue once at DpReview so there are my opinions:

There is a lens issue - induction impact of huge spring assembled into the lens. Please see it here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/29/dissected-panasonics-lumix-g-14mm-and-20mm-prime-lenses/

Why - Just facts:

1. It is related ONLY to Pana 20mm f1.7. No other lens have it.

2. It appears only at high ISO, then sensitivity of sensor is very high. Electro sensitivity means not only sensitivity to light, but sensitivity to other electromagnetic waves, so the spring may work like a inductor / antenna.

3. As everybody know it cannot be solved by firmware update – means problem not in programming but in physical impact.

Of course I cannot prove it, I need to disassemble my Pana 20mm f1.7 – never do it! But maybe somebody who has enough experience will try to figure it out.

Original tread: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50606731

Pictures: http://natalispalette.jimdo.com/photo/panasonic-lumix-g-20-mm-f-1-7-asph-lens/

It's a lens-and-sensor issue. A certain sensor (the newest MFT sensor) and a certain lens (the 20/1.7) together results in banding. Use another lens or another sensor and the problem disappears (or is much less common/prominent).

I am not sure the spring is involved though. I am not afraid to open up my 20 and temporarily remove the spring (I have already done that for other reasons) so I might eventually get around to testing whether it makes any difference with regard to banding if the spring is there or not. But no promises.

Anders, try instead another lens under identical conditions.

I have already done that. It is clear through lots of tests, by me as well as others, that other lenses shot under the same conditions are far less prone to generate badning.

Spring inside the lens is a pure mechanical with the purpose to eliminate flex between moving parts

Yes, that's no doubt the reason why the spring is there. The question is whether it has any harmful side effects of the kind suggested by Yuri. As already indicated, I find that unlikely, but not so unlikely that I wouldn't it consider it worth testing.

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,305
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

Anders W wrote:

s_grins wrote:

markintosh13 wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

doesn't the Panasonic GH3 manual acknowledge the possibility of stripes appearing when using the 20mm and high ISO?

I have GH2. And I do not care... if Panasonic acknowledged this, it sounds more like a disclaimer (just in case someone tries to sue the company).

They do acknowledge it in the manual and the reason is not that this is something they could be sued for (or avoid being sued for by mentioning it in the manual).

I've seen it with many Panasonic products. Manual for Panasonic microwave states that Panasonic is not responsible for fire caused by drying wet shoes inside MW.

Again, if banding appears only at high ISO, it is not the lens, it is a sensor. If it could be a lens, you should see banding at any ISO.

If you see it with this particular lens and this particular sensor, not with other lenses on the same sensor and not with the same lens on another sensor, it is the lens and the sensor.

As to ISO, you can see it with the camera set to any ISO. It's just a matter of how hard you push the shot in PP.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51942744

When I push hard PP, I have this banding with 14-45

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - AF Video Hunting

Etruscello wrote:

Does the greater AF speed of the new 20mm f1.7 show itself during video capture? My old version has the annoying habit of hunting during video. Tom

The new version has exactly the same AF mechanism as the old and is likely to work equally poorly for video. For ordinary AF-S usage with stills, it has no problem with AF speed. But if you use it with video in AF-C, it doesn't work well because the lens is not designed for AF-C in the first place. On my G1, the body won't even allow the lens to enter AF-C mode.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

s_grins wrote:

Anders W wrote:

s_grins wrote:

markintosh13 wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

doesn't the Panasonic GH3 manual acknowledge the possibility of stripes appearing when using the 20mm and high ISO?

I have GH2. And I do not care... if Panasonic acknowledged this, it sounds more like a disclaimer (just in case someone tries to sue the company).

They do acknowledge it in the manual and the reason is not that this is something they could be sued for (or avoid being sued for by mentioning it in the manual).

I've seen it with many Panasonic products. Manual for Panasonic microwave states that Panasonic is not responsible for fire caused by drying wet shoes inside MW.

Again, if banding appears only at high ISO, it is not the lens, it is a sensor. If it could be a lens, you should see banding at any ISO.

If you see it with this particular lens and this particular sensor, not with other lenses on the same sensor and not with the same lens on another sensor, it is the lens and the sensor.

As to ISO, you can see it with the camera set to any ISO. It's just a matter of how hard you push the shot in PP.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51942744

When I push hard PP, I have this banding with 14-45

Any camera with any lens will produce banding if you push hard enough. That's not the point. The point is that the 20 is more prone to banding than other lenses when used with the particular sensor at issue here (not other sensors).

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,305
Re: Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding

Anders W wrote:

s_grins wrote:

Anders W wrote:

s_grins wrote:

markintosh13 wrote:

s_grins wrote:

I do not think this is the lens to blame. I think this is a sensor problem. Can you, please repeat you findings with different lens under identical conditions (especially ISO 6400)?

doesn't the Panasonic GH3 manual acknowledge the possibility of stripes appearing when using the 20mm and high ISO?

I have GH2. And I do not care... if Panasonic acknowledged this, it sounds more like a disclaimer (just in case someone tries to sue the company).

They do acknowledge it in the manual and the reason is not that this is something they could be sued for (or avoid being sued for by mentioning it in the manual).

I've seen it with many Panasonic products. Manual for Panasonic microwave states that Panasonic is not responsible for fire caused by drying wet shoes inside MW.

Again, if banding appears only at high ISO, it is not the lens, it is a sensor. If it could be a lens, you should see banding at any ISO.

If you see it with this particular lens and this particular sensor, not with other lenses on the same sensor and not with the same lens on another sensor, it is the lens and the sensor.

As to ISO, you can see it with the camera set to any ISO. It's just a matter of how hard you push the shot in PP.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51942744

When I push hard PP, I have this banding with 14-45

Any camera with any lens will produce banding if you push hard enough. That's not the point. The point is that the 20 is more prone to banding than other lenses when used with the particular sensor at issue here (not other sensors).

"More prone" - I try to explain this with simple suggestion that we use 1.7/20 more than any other lens for low light. If you remember, all this banding issue started to float around before other fast lenses came to life, so 1.7/20 was the only one...

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