Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?

Started Jul 31, 2013 | Discussions
Jonathan Brady
Jonathan Brady Veteran Member • Posts: 6,457
Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?
1

Are you one of the people that are shouting from the rooftops that Canon is abandoning the "M ship" in the US because they haven't released the 11-22 in the US? Are you convinced that the M is the last iteration of the line to hit US soil?

You MUST be right because camera companies NEVER release a product in one country later than another... http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/better-late-than-never-sony-a58-announced-in-japan/  And I mean EVER.

It's only theories out there right now.  Don't create a fact in your head out of something that is completely unknown.

We won't know if Canon is going to abandon the US market in regards to the M for many more months.

Here's my theory (and no, I'm not calling it a fact as many others have done with their theories)

The M was off to a VERY rocky start in the US.  Canon issued a firmware update to fix one of the major two problems with the camera.  Then, they dropped the price to fix the other major problem (lack of demand due to price).  This created a VERY LARGE and VERY ENTHUSIASTIC (and very educated, IMO) market of future M owners, should another product be in the pipeline.

They decided to hold off announcing and making available the 11-22.  This will result in people being told "no, there are no plans to release this lens" when they ask any Canon employee (executives would know if it is actually coming but won't tell you, everyone else won't actually know and will be reading from a script).  So, the official and unofficial word is "no".  Until it's announced.

When a follow up M-line camera becomes available in the US, the 11-22 will be announced alongside of it to create a synergistic buzz about top of the line AF in the camera and image quality from the lens.

I just doubt that Canon would put all of their eggs in the "M" basket in the US when the "M" was so flawed at the beginning.  It makes sense that they'd at least want to see what they're capable of capturing with a much better and more competitive camera.  ESPECIALLY with all of the buzz they've created lately.

So... that's what makes sense to me anyway...

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Tim McClanahan
Tim McClanahan Regular Member • Posts: 170
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?

Hopefully the announcement on August 21st will address the M platform. I'd love for them to announce some new EF-M lenses, though I've already got all three Canon EF-M lenses. A (small) version of their 55-250 would be appreciated, or a small version of their 18-135 (or both), plus some more fast pancake primes.

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Setter Dog Veteran Member • Posts: 5,617
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?

Tim McClanahan wrote:

A (small) version of their 55-250 would be appreciated

I'll drink to that!!

Jack

tomtom50 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,244
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?

Hey, it's a narrative. unlikely, but not impossible.

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Joe Talks Photo Gear
Joe Talks Photo Gear Regular Member • Posts: 183
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?

Jonathan Brady wrote:

Are you one of the people that are shouting from the rooftops that Canon is abandoning the "M ship" in the US because they haven't released the 11-22 in the US? Are you convinced that the M is the last iteration of the line to hit US soil?

You MUST be right because camera companies NEVER release a product in one country later than another... http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/better-late-than-never-sony-a58-announced-in-japan/ And I mean EVER.

It's only theories out there right now. Don't create a fact in your head out of something that is completely unknown.

We won't know if Canon is going to abandon the US market in regards to the M for many more months.

Here's my theory (and no, I'm not calling it a fact as many others have done with their theories)

The M was off to a VERY rocky start in the US. Canon issued a firmware update to fix one of the major two problems with the camera. Then, they dropped the price to fix the other major problem (lack of demand due to price). This created a VERY LARGE and VERY ENTHUSIASTIC (and very educated, IMO) market of future M owners, should another product be in the pipeline.

They decided to hold off announcing and making available the 11-22. This will result in people being told "no, there are no plans to release this lens" when they ask any Canon employee (executives would know if it is actually coming but won't tell you, everyone else won't actually know and will be reading from a script). So, the official and unofficial word is "no". Until it's announced.

When a follow up M-line camera becomes available in the US, the 11-22 will be announced alongside of it to create a synergistic buzz about top of the line AF in the camera and image quality from the lens.

I just doubt that Canon would put all of their eggs in the "M" basket in the US when the "M" was so flawed at the beginning. It makes sense that they'd at least want to see what they're capable of capturing with a much better and more competitive camera. ESPECIALLY with all of the buzz they've created lately.

So... that's what makes sense to me anyway...

I am going to start a petition pleading with Canon to announce their intentions regarding the M so we can focus more on what is vs what might be.

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Joe D.

sjprg
sjprg Senior Member • Posts: 1,884
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?

Que Se Ra Se Ra

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Paul

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rrccad Forum Pro • Posts: 11,114
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?

tomtom50 wrote:

Hey, it's a narrative. unlikely, but not impossible.

far more likely then your theory that the canon opened up thousands of EOS-M boxes and updated firmwares.

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rrccad Forum Pro • Posts: 11,114
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?
1

PS .. you forgot the D5200.  wasn't released in the united states until Feb 2013. was released everywhere else in November 2012.

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rrccad Forum Pro • Posts: 11,114
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?

Tim McClanahan wrote:

Hopefully the announcement on August 21st will address the M platform. I'd love for them to announce some new EF-M lenses, though I've already got all three Canon EF-M lenses. A (small) version of their 55-250 would be appreciated, or a small version of their 18-135 (or both), plus some more fast pancake primes.

I'm thinking that's project1709

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Jefenator
Jefenator Senior Member • Posts: 2,841
Re: Insisting that Canon is abandoning M?
1

Well, it's their call. Depending on what else comes out, I might possibly be enticed to invest more in the EOS-M and EOS systems... or just run this little 22mm kit into the ground.

I was a longtime Canon user and am now an avid mirrorless guy, so part of me kind of hopes that Canon gets it together. They seem like the hare in the race to develop a dominant mirrorless system, and you know how that story goes. (I see the tortoises steadily advancing toward the podium...)

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EvokeEmotion Contributing Member • Posts: 998
There may be hope after all
3

Warranty card for EF-M 11-22mm UWA lens reads USA & Canada only.

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MisterPootieCat
MisterPootieCat Veteran Member • Posts: 3,123
Just sitting on the sidelines, waiting for the curtain to go up (or down).

There's certainly no shortage of theories about the future of the M platform, some more plausible than others.

The recent free fall in the price of the EOS M has certainly made owner's out of a boatload of us and most of us have been surprised to find out it's a really decent camera. But at current prices (which have finally gotten the product out the warehouse) I'm guessing Canon is going to be thinking long and hard about the EOS M replacement. There's simply no way that Canon is making any money on this camera at these stupid cheap prices. Keep in mind the vendors are almost certainly getting the camera for less than what they sell it for. It may only be ten or twenty dollars but it cuts a little deeper and means even more of a loss for Canon.

We would expect any future M to address the flaws in the current model, but all of this comes at a price. How much more is the public willing to spend? And the general consensus is the MILC market just isn't doing well. What would Canon have to do to generate sales BUT make a profit in this segment? They were late getting into the MILC market and lost ground is doubly hard to recover from.

For me, if the M dies tomorrow I'll be okay with that. I'm enjoying mine a lot more than I thought I would but wouldn't spend more than $600 on an upgrade, and then only if it came with a lens.

I think the SL1/100D is going to be much more successful IMO. And I can see the 100D/18-55 kit dropping to $600 around Christmas, kneecapping the M successor even further.

But then there's the possibility that Canon might keep the M platform alive and accept the idea it will always be sold at a loss, not likely IMO.

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Lawrencew Veteran Member • Posts: 4,861
Re: Don't Panic Yet
1

Even in the UK where the 11-22mm is supposed to be available, I can only see one major retailer that claims to have stock whereas everyone else still says that is available for pre-order.  Amazon don't even list it yet.
I don't think that the lack of availability in the USA is anything to do with Canon deciding not to sell it there. More that they simply do not have the stocks yet to meet any demand and are waiting until they have built the stock up before they do so.

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xlotus Regular Member • Posts: 465
Canon is not losing money on EOS M.
1

I disagree that Canon is losing money on EOS M. Canon sells a heck a lot of P&S cameras, between $300 and as low as below $100. These cameras have the same DIGIC 5 processor and 3" LCD. Some even with touch screen. The main difference is the sensor size. Canon simply can't be selling all these P&S cameras at a loss. It just does not make any business sense.

Beside, every mirrorless camera manufacturers have models that are on sale for $200-$400 range. It just does not make any business sense at all that they are all selling at a loss.

As long as EOS M is available for $350, it is selling far more than the SL1. Right now, based on Amazon rank, many more people buy T3i, T5i, and even T3 than SL1. I agree that if Canon lowers SL1 price that it will sell better. I would consider to have one for its small size, but not until the price drops to below $600 with the 18-55 STM IS.

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Roy2001 Regular Member • Posts: 211
Re: Canon is not losing money on EOS M.
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I think Canon wants to release 11-22mm with new EOS-M II.

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EvokeEmotion Contributing Member • Posts: 998
Re: Canon is not losing money on EOS M.

I think Canon wants to release 11-22mm with new EOS-M II.

Why then does Canon single out USA to do that. Why did they start selling the new lens in Canada already?

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EvokeEmotion Contributing Member • Posts: 998
Re: Canon is not losing money on EOS M.

My understanding is that sensor is very expensive to make. Possibly the most expensive component of a camera. And that cost rises exponentially as the sensor size gets larger. That's why FF cameras were so expensive just a few years ago.

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Marco Nero
Marco Nero Veteran Member • Posts: 5,650
The EOS-M and its future.
2

Jonathan Brady wrote:

Are you one of the people that are shouting from the rooftops that Canon is abandoning the "M ship" in the US because they haven't released the 11-22 in the US? Are you convinced that the M is the last iteration of the line to hit US soil?

The EOS-M is proving wildly successful for Canon. I bought mine after reading the press release and placed my order even prior to commercial release. I paid about $1000 for the body plus the mounting ring for EF lenses. And even though priced dropped for this camera to absurdly low levels, the whole act was at first inevitable... though later it was intentional - but it was staged as a last ditch effort to get people to recognize this camera, lest Canon be laughed at by the rest of the market and indeed the world. It is also part of a much broader campaign for the Canon Mirrorless Cameras. But there's no doubt they were upset to find that everyone though their new product was rubbish. It wasn't. And it wasn't a bad camera... just a little slow in the AF department. If the image quality of integration of lenses was substandard, nothing at all could resurrect this camera.

Canon make a LOT of money from the lucrative lens market. They would give away a DSLR if they had to, just to get you to invest in their lenses. But their lenses are good and their lens range is exceptionally broad. No one lens can do everything either so many people will buy more than one. The profit margin for Canon is almost entirely in the lenses they make.

Whilst Sony is posting record losses that suggest they are barely staving off bankruptcy (see related posts on DPreview by other members who have pulled up the sales financials for Sony for 2012), their investment in the Mirrorless market was to blame for their largest losses. They have deliberately undercut themselves by offering "competitive" pricing to burn sales from the other manufacturing giants, including Canon. The only reason people think the EOS-M was too expensive in the beginning is because stupid people from other manufacturers were dropping their prices to attract the sales and market penetration they so desperately craved.

Canon had a hot potato in their lap: a mirrorless camera of their own...

Here's what appears to have happened:

  • Canon patent new Dual-Layered sensor (designed originally for the EOS-M) to reduce "hunting" during Auto Focus. This patent was lodged (if I remember correctly) before the release of the EOS-M in 2012.
  • Canon rush the release the EOS-M ahead of intended worldwide schedule.
  • EOS-M is aimed solely at women in Japan. Known locally as a ladies camera.
  • EOS-M Pro-Version suspended whilst Patented Dual-Layer sensor developed.
  • Canon fumbled the release of the EOS-M and produce few test bodies for reviewers.
  • Reviewers forced to "book" a rental in person at Canon - not sent a pre-release model.
  • Canon claim slow AF cannot be enhanced with a firmware "Fix"
  • They only allow a handful of functional 'demo' cameras to circulate.
  • The EOS-M has a sluggish AF method which is immediately panned by reviewers.
  • Bad reviews (re: sluggish AF) decimate sales of the EOS-M
  • Low public profile due to low sales due to poor reviews
  • EOS-M Pro-version re-commences after of Dual-Layered chip is given DSLR proving ground.
  • EOS-M has no market penetration for reasons mentioned above. Canon are worried?
  • They announce worldwide slashing of RRP for the EOS-M.
  • EOS-M sales are now more competitive and units of sales increase.
  • Prices slashed to just above costs. Sales soar.
  • Competing brands (eg Sony, Samsung) lose massive ground.
  • Canon announce Firmware 2.0
  • Positive reviews surface.
  • DSLR owners adopt the EOS-M
  • First camera buyers adopt the EOS-M
  • Owners of other brands adopt the EOS-M
  • Forums now saturated with both students and serious photographers seeking the EOS-M
  • Future EOS-M models to include Dual Sensor APS-C sensor.
  • The Pro model said to appeal to those with an interest in Full Frame... (possible lens inverter)
  • Future EOS-M lenses (EF-M Lenses) to possibly include an EF-M 50mm Prime (see relevant patents)
  • Canon adopt the Apple method of 'reducing stock availability to create a sense of demand'.
  • Canon announce that some lenses will not be sold to the US market for same reasons.
    Canon will no doubt return to the US market. Japanese and Asian-Pacific sales alone will not be enough to keep the EOS-M generating cash and interest in the Canon brand.

So what can be made of the recent events surrounding the EOS-M? For one thing, EOS-M is certainly not going to be abandoned. Canon are shrewed business people and that's why they didn't go the way of Konica/Minolta or Kodak with the tanking World Economy. They don't put all their eggs in one basket which allows them to experiment with models that test the market (eg Pro1/G1X/EOS-M) but they also stick with what they believe is a reliable formula for success.

The EOS-M is a VERY nice camera. The Firmware update made a lot of difference. It was never aimed at the sporting market because that's what DSLRs do so very well. The EF-M lenses are exceptionally good and they can be produced inexpensively and reliably.

I'd say that the EOS-M is (fortunately) here to stay and that well see more lenses and more great EOS-M bodies before the year is out. Christmas being an ideal launch platform for potential September announcements. I'd also expect the US market to be offered more products in future. The problem with the US market is that Americans are considered "cheap" compared to the Asian markets when it comes to brands and what people will pay for them. This is why even though Apple products are made in Asia and China, Americans pay significantly less for the same products sold elsewhere in the world. This is why Sony have had to drop their pricing to compete in the American market and this is why profit margins are low. By restricting future lens releases in the United States, Canon won't be forced to sell at such a low profit margin. The number of Americans buying the EOS-M only after the price plummeted twice is the perfect example of this. Canon tested the water, found that their new camera and lenses were considered too expensive by American standards, and now choose to limit their sales and thereby reduce future losses.

By getting deep market penetration with the EOS-M, a camera they were probably considering dumping due to poor reception, Canon have paved the way for a more expensive and refined mirrorless camera though two new models are said to be slated for release. One will be a successor to the EOS-M and the other will be aimed at the more serious photographer.

I'm fairly sure that Canon will release the 11-22mm lens in the US market some time later in the year.

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frameman Contributing Member • Posts: 925
Re: The EOS-M and its future.

I have to agree with Macro Nero. Canon would not go to the trouble of creating a new mount and all that goes with it to make it redundant a short time later. I have written before that the M 4/3 system seem to have a major patent holding in the focusing system, but now Canon have their own dual pixel focusing. This was obviously not solely intended for Dslrs and video. Secondly :- a system without an evf or ovf will not suit many who grew up with film cameras, or why would other makers have the add on facility. Canon are maybe late to the party but they are not stupid, and from that I would suggest that the EOS-M will not die but surely evolve/morph into something very acceptable or even great, if for no other reason than the larger sensor size by comparison to others. Given the technology that I suspect will come from the dual pixel sensors, and the rumoured triple layer sensor testing I would hazzard a guess that the G1X could well get a boost of the technology. Still this is all supposition, and there might be only 5 people within Canon that have any idea of the future of Canon's photographic division, and they are payed too much to have a loose tounge. I am looking forward to some good stuff from Canon, bring it on I say.

rjjr Forum Pro • Posts: 14,460
I couldn't care less...
4

if Canon did abandon the M series.

Heck, I still use my Canon F1s, AE1s, and Canonet they abandoned decades ago.

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