7D - 70D - 7D2

Started Jul 21, 2013 | Discussions
bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 63,849
Re: Arggghhh!!!
1

Jerry-astro wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

I have as much right to my rambling nonsense as you have to yours. Speculating that there may not be a 7DII as as valid as speculating that there might be, or are you suggesting that all views counter to your own should be silenced?

No, Bob, you most definitely have every right to be dead wrong as many times as you want here, even in the same thread.

Glad you see it that way. Of course you have the advantage over me that those saying that there will be no 7DII can be proven wrong if Canon releases one, while those that say there will, but don't specify when, can never be proven wrong. Still, we'll see.

-- hide signature --

Bob

Jerry-astro
Jerry-astro Forum Pro • Posts: 14,927
Destructive? Please.

skanter wrote:

+++1. This obsession with new technology is destructive, and has nothing to do with photography.

[rant mode on]

I know this is a "gear forum", but almost all of the cameras posters own on this forum are overkill for their photographic skills and talents, yet they continually want more, more, more. Good photography comes from your eye and brain, not from the latest cool technology or expensive lenses.

[rant mode off]

Sam, to be blunt, if it really bugs you THAT much, this might not be the forum for you.  The focus of many, if not most discussions here is technology and the speculation that surrounds it.  It's less so about photography per se.  This hasn't changed in the 10+ years I've been participating.  Overkill or not, people are intensely interested in the technology contained within their cameras and speculating about which direction Canon will head.  Yes, it gets intense at times (as it is in this thread), but it's best to simply overlook it and move on.  You can rant until you're blue in the face, but it won't change a thing... guaranteed (other than perhaps making you feel a bit better).

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 63,849
Re: Arggghhh!!!
1

howardroark wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

I have as much right to my rambling nonsense as you have to yours. Speculating that there may not be a 7DII as as valid as speculating that there might be, or are you suggesting that all views counter to your own should be silenced?

No, Bob, you most definitely have every right to be dead wrong as many times as you want here, even in the same thread.

Every forum has to have its contrarian. If there wasn't someone to be wrong while insisting that they're right, most threads would probably be really boring.

You have no evidence to say whether I'm wrong or right. You might wish me to be wrong, but until (and if) there is a 7DII you simply cannot prove that I am wrong.

I think it's human nature to question the arguments others make, but believing an argument simply because it is contrary to what someone else says and in the face of any logic or reason makes for the endless arguments those people hunger for.

I have presented more 'logic and reason' supporting my view than anyone of the other persuasion has. All they have said is 'there must be a 7DII because I want one', which isn't exactly logical or reasonable.

-- hide signature --

Bob

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,853
I rest my case!

howardroark wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

I have as much right to my rambling nonsense as you have to yours. Speculating that there may not be a 7DII as as valid as speculating that there might be, or are you suggesting that all views counter to your own should be silenced?

No, Bob, you most definitely have every right to be dead wrong as many times as you want here, even in the same thread.

Every forum has to have its contrarian.  If there wasn't someone to be wrong while insisting that they're right, most threads would probably be really boring.  I think it's human nature to question the arguments others make, but believing an argument simply because it is contrary to what someone else says and in the face of any logic or reason makes for the endless arguments those people hunger for.

I have no idea what he said, but there always has to be a never ending argument because that's what some people are here to do.  Even when you don't talk to someone they have to get their last word in.  Ignore shouldn't gray out the name, it should vanish it.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 63,849
Re: I rest my case!
2

howardroark wrote:

howardroark wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

I have as much right to my rambling nonsense as you have to yours. Speculating that there may not be a 7DII as as valid as speculating that there might be, or are you suggesting that all views counter to your own should be silenced?

No, Bob, you most definitely have every right to be dead wrong as many times as you want here, even in the same thread.

Every forum has to have its contrarian. If there wasn't someone to be wrong while insisting that they're right, most threads would probably be really boring. I think it's human nature to question the arguments others make, but believing an argument simply because it is contrary to what someone else says and in the face of any logic or reason makes for the endless arguments those people hunger for.

I have no idea what he said, but there always has to be a never ending argument because that's what some people are here to do...

Even if it means replying to their own post.

-- hide signature --

Bob

MarshallG
MarshallG Veteran Member • Posts: 7,288
Re: Ironic subject line: I wish this thread would die.

There are a whole bunch of Product Managers who are eager for this thread to go on and on and on...

Personally, I'd like to upgrade once every five years. Everything else is just "signal to noise." I'd like my next camera to be the 5D Mark V or VI.

 MarshallG's gear list:MarshallG's gear list
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skanter
skanter Forum Pro • Posts: 22,652
Re: Destructive? Please.
1

Jerry-astro wrote:

skanter wrote:

+++1. This obsession with new technology is destructive, and has nothing to do with photography.

[rant mode on]

I know this is a "gear forum", but almost all of the cameras posters own on this forum are overkill for their photographic skills and talents, yet they continually want more, more, more. Good photography comes from your eye and brain, not from the latest cool technology or expensive lenses.

[rant mode off]

Sam, to be blunt, if it really bugs you THAT much, this might not be the forum for you. The focus of many, if not most discussions here is technology and the speculation that surrounds it. It's less so about photography per se. This hasn't changed in the 10+ years I've been participating. Overkill or not, people are intensely interested in the technology contained within their cameras and speculating about which direction Canon will head. Yes, it gets intense at times (as it is in this thread), but it's best to simply overlook it and move on. You can rant until you're blue in the face, but it won't change a thing... guaranteed (other than perhaps making you feel a bit better).

Jerry, it's the obsession with new technology that bugs me, not the discussion of it. The technology is a tool. If one is interested in the technology out of context with its purpose, it becomes ridiculous. People are bored, and want new toys. I enjoy new technology as much as anyone, but try to understand its context and keep a perspective on things.

If my rants bug you, then perhaps this is not the forum for you. It's a free form of expression.

-- hide signature --

Sam K., NYC

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Karl Gnter Wnsch Forum Pro • Posts: 11,408
Re: 7D - 70D - 7D2

Bobn2 wrote:

the only question that I raise is whether the current Canon product configuration leaves room for a linear successor.

It does - just because the 6D costs the same it doesn't close the position in the lineup. Car companies produce SUV and limousines and convertible 2 seater cars at the price point and yet there is a valid market for every model - it's the same with the 70D, 7D (eventually 7DII) and 6D. There is enough meat on the bone for a 7DII to differentiate from the 70D and against the 6D the differences will be even greater.

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regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

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Canon EOS 7D Mark II
(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,853
Re: 7D - 70D - 7D2
2

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

the only question that I raise is whether the current Canon product configuration leaves room for a linear successor.

It does - just because the 6D costs the same it doesn't close the position in the lineup. Car companies produce SUV and limousines and convertible 2 seater cars at the price point and yet there is a valid market for every model - it's the same with the 70D, 7D (eventually 7DII) and 6D. There is enough meat on the bone for a 7DII to differentiate from the 70D and against the 6D the differences will be even greater.

Karl,

Haven't you figured out that your wrong yet?  Why are you wrong?  Because you're arguing with someone who is right.  Make your point and move on with your life.  You're wrong.  You just are.  You can't be right.  It's not possible.

Jerry-astro
Jerry-astro Forum Pro • Posts: 14,927
Re: Destructive? Please.

skanter wrote:

Jerry, it's the obsession with new technology that bugs me, not the discussion of it. The technology is a tool. If one is interested in the technology out of context with its purpose, it becomes ridiculous. People are bored, and want new toys. I enjoy new technology as much as anyone, but try to understand its context and keep a perspective on things.

If my rants bug you, then perhaps this is not the forum for you. It's a free form of expression.

If your ranting bugged me that much, I wouldn't bother responding. I suppose I'm more willing to take the obsession a bit more in stride and accept it as a part of a largely technology driven forum.  I find it common in many technology forums.  It's my humble opinion that you're overreacting to it, that's all.  But again... that's just one opinion, and as you state, you're quite entitled to rant to your heart's content.  I'll leave to to it.

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elfroggio
MOD elfroggio Veteran Member • Posts: 3,008
Re: Ironic subject line: I wish this thread would die.
4

skanter wrote:

[rant mode on]

I know this is a "gear forum", but almost all of the cameras posters own on this forum are overkill for their photographic skills and talents, yet they continually want more, more, more. Good photography comes from your eye and brain, not from the latest cool technology or expensive lenses.

[rant mode off]

Yes and no. I'm "an old fart" with the emphasis on old. There are days where 2000 years old, my back is killing me, my hip hurts... I used to have lightning quick reflex and in my younger days I didn't have a motor drive for my Pentax and I would still get "the moment" now 8 frames per second help me and often saves the day.

I've been wearing glasses for the 50 years, literally. I use progressive lenses (BTW these are Nikon lenses). Earlier this year, the AF died on one of my lens. I had to focus manually. It took me from 10 seconds to 30 seconds to focus "properly". AF allows me to stay in business.

It's still me connecting with the subject, it's still me making the contact, it's still me making the decisions and it's still me pressing the shutter. But technology helps me a lot.

-- hide signature --

Thanks
http://www.sritch.com
Street Photography: The Dogs of Vancouver, BC

jonrobertp Forum Pro • Posts: 12,880
Re: Ironic subject line: I wish this thread would die.
2

Well then there are some like me...I like the latest in my price/weight range...yeah, gotta restrain myself ...it can become idolatrous...but I'm sure others have their issues to deal with too.   lol

Camera gear...tis fun.  Non fattening.  Doesn't kill ppl on the streets.   Is modestly priced .  And keeps ppl like most of us interested in stuff...and also in what we can now do with the new gear...like shoot in lower light.   nuff said...

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 63,849
Re: 7D - 70D - 7D2
1

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

the only question that I raise is whether the current Canon product configuration leaves room for a linear successor.

It does - just because the 6D costs the same it doesn't close the position in the lineup.

Whether there is 'room' depends on whether there are enough available sales for two cameras or three at that price point, enough to make enough profit over the lifetime of the model to repay the R&D costs. That depends on the size of the overall market at that price level and the relative share. Sometimes having more than one model can expand the market, but it needs to do so enough to generate more additional revenue than it costs. You are betting that Canon's calculation is that the 6D will generate sufficient additional revenue over and above the 7D to have justified its position. I'm betting that Canon decided that FF at that price point would expand the market, but not enough to justify two cameras, i.e it takes some of the 7D sales, not necessarily all of them. What is important to Canon is that more sales overall accrue. Both are possible. I think mine is more likely, you think yours is more likely.

Car companies produce SUV and limousines and convertible 2 seater cars at the price point and yet there is a valid market for every model - it's the same with the 70D, 7D (eventually 7DII) and 6D. There is enough meat on the bone for a 7DII to differentiate from the 70D and against the 6D the differences will be even greater.

It is a very different marketplace. Firstly, the motor market is much bigger, both in unit numbers and in unit value. Secondly, SUV's and limousines and convertibles are all basically the same product - they share the same R&D. The motor manufacturers develop generic platforms and ring the changes on them, even sharing basic platforms between brands (which might not even belong to the same company). Thus the same R&D costs are shared between many different models, and the required sales per model are reduced proportionately. Put it another way, by selling different variants of basically the same thing, the motor manufacturers expand the market more than the cost of the different variants. Camera companies only do that to a very limited extent in the DSLR market - what they tend to do more is reuse old platforms for new models, so the 5D's up to the Mk II were based on the EOS-30. The problem is for a new 7d is there really is no existing platform for it to be based on, unless it is a very minor enhancement to the 7d (and uses the same platform). With the 6D taking sales in the $2k sector, I find it difficult to believe that Canon could make a profit on it, and if it doesn't make a profit, it won't do it. One possibility would be to release a 7D MkII which is really a 70D with all the required 'pro' trappings. It probably costs nothing to open up the VF a % or two, add a joystick and make a magnesium case. Such a 7D Mk II would be feasible, because what it would be doing was selling more 70D's with an even higher profit margin, similar to what Canon used to do with the 1Ds line. So, that's the way I see it. I'm sorry that it upsets you so that someone sees it differently to you, but that is the way that it is.

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 63,849
Re: 7D - 70D - 7D2
2

howardroark wrote:

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

the only question that I raise is whether the current Canon product configuration leaves room for a linear successor.

It does - just because the 6D costs the same it doesn't close the position in the lineup. Car companies produce SUV and limousines and convertible 2 seater cars at the price point and yet there is a valid market for every model - it's the same with the 70D, 7D (eventually 7DII) and 6D. There is enough meat on the bone for a 7DII to differentiate from the 70D and against the 6D the differences will be even greater.

Karl,

Haven't you figured out that your wrong yet? Why are you wrong? Because you're arguing with someone who is right. Make your point and move on with your life. You're wrong. You just are. You can't be right. It's not possible.

Strangely, in this dialogue the only person who keeps telling the other he's wrong is Karl. I've never insisted that I'm right, because I might not be - it's only speculation, but the same is true of what he's saying and what you're saying.

I find it very strange that you get so worked up just because someone has different opinions to you.

-- hide signature --

Bob

Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,625
Re: 7D - 70D - 7D2

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

the only question that I raise is whether the current Canon product configuration leaves room for a linear successor.

It does - just because the 6D costs the same it doesn't close the position in the lineup. Car companies produce SUV and limousines and convertible 2 seater cars at the price point and yet there is a valid market for every model - it's the same with the 70D, 7D (eventually 7DII) and 6D. There is enough meat on the bone for a 7DII to differentiate from the 70D and against the 6D the differences will be even greater.

what a subject to discuss

what do you think Karl, does Canon have something in there sleeves regarding sensors?

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Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 26,592
Re: Arggghhh!!!

Bobn2 wrote:

howardroark wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

I have as much right to my rambling nonsense as you have to yours. Speculating that there may not be a 7DII as as valid as speculating that there might be, or are you suggesting that all views counter to your own should be silenced?

No, Bob, you most definitely have every right to be dead wrong as many times as you want here, even in the same thread.

Every forum has to have its contrarian. If there wasn't someone to be wrong while insisting that they're right, most threads would probably be really boring.

You have no evidence to say whether I'm wrong or right. You might wish me to be wrong, but until (and if) there is a 7DII you simply cannot prove that I am wrong.

I think it's human nature to question the arguments others make, but believing an argument simply because it is contrary to what someone else says and in the face of any logic or reason makes for the endless arguments those people hunger for.

I have presented more 'logic and reason' supporting my view than anyone of the other persuasion has.

In your own opinion, of course.  Your 'logic' seems illogical to those of us that disagree with you.

All they have said is 'there must be a 7DII because I want one', which isn't exactly logical or reasonable.

Nobody has said that.

jonrobertp Forum Pro • Posts: 12,880
Re: 7D - 70D - 7D2
1

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

jonrobertp wrote:

The 7DII or the 8D will likely have the same problems that the 7D has. Too heavy.

I think you need to check what the differences in weight are - you fret about 100grams...

If that's it...then it's 4 oz....the size of a small steak...and gravity is on the increase. 

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 63,849
Logic
1

Mark B. wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

howardroark wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

I have as much right to my rambling nonsense as you have to yours. Speculating that there may not be a 7DII as as valid as speculating that there might be, or are you suggesting that all views counter to your own should be silenced?

No, Bob, you most definitely have every right to be dead wrong as many times as you want here, even in the same thread.

Every forum has to have its contrarian. If there wasn't someone to be wrong while insisting that they're right, most threads would probably be really boring.

You have no evidence to say whether I'm wrong or right. You might wish me to be wrong, but until (and if) there is a 7DII you simply cannot prove that I am wrong.

I think it's human nature to question the arguments others make, but believing an argument simply because it is contrary to what someone else says and in the face of any logic or reason makes for the endless arguments those people hunger for.

I have presented more 'logic and reason' supporting my view than anyone of the other persuasion has.

In your own opinion, of course. Your 'logic' seems illogical to those of us that disagree with you.

Of course, but then there has been no 'logic' at all offered by the other side. Just 'I want one'.

All they have said is 'there must be a 7DII because I want one', which isn't exactly logical or reasonable.

Nobody has said that.

No?

I for one would never consider ever buying a full frame DSLR if there is a fast alternative

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Bob

x-vision
x-vision Senior Member • Posts: 1,231
Re: 7D - 70D - 7D2
2

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

the only question that I raise is whether the current Canon product configuration leaves room for a linear successor.

It does - just because the 6D costs the same it doesn't close the position in the lineup.

I'm definitely with Bob on this one.

Just take a look at the 1D/5D/6D forum and you will see that many people are now 'upgrading' from the 7D to the 6D.

This is exactly what Bob is talking about: the 6D taking sales from the 7D, despite the dramatically incompatible specs.

As per your theory, no one should be doing this 'upgrade', right?
And yet, this is exactly what many people are doing.

So, the 6D is indeed closing the 7D position in the lineup ... for now, though.
As I said in a previous post, i do believe that the 6DII will move up in specs and price,
thus making room in the lineup for the 7DII.

x-vision
x-vision Senior Member • Posts: 1,231
Re: 7D - 70D - 7D2

Bobn2 wrote:

The proposition is that DSLR will become more of a specialist product, concentrating on a higher price, lower volume market where full frame is the norm - SLR systems will increasingly concentrate of full frame. The APS-C will concentrate on EVF cameras, with the associated short register lens systems.

This definitely won't happen in the next five years. Just my opinion  .

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