RX100M2 Petition for Minimum shutter speed, should I bother?

Started Jul 19, 2013 | Questions
tesilab
tesilab Senior Member • Posts: 2,741
Re: RX100M2 Petition for Minimum shutter speed, should I bother?

Like you, I think auto-ISO in manual mode is phenomenal. It's the only way I shoot my RX1, and that feature contributed to my purchase decision.

Like you and everyone else, I think the ability to set a minimum shutter speed ought to be available.

Unlike you, however, I knew the operational details of the camera before purchase, from reading reviews, and I have never been surprised in any material way.

Sony is not a company to issue firmware updates to keep its customers happy. If they didn't make such compelling hardware, I'd rather give my money to Fuji.

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BertIverson Veteran Member • Posts: 3,691
Re: Minimum AutoISO 160?

digitalphotographer wrote:

BertIverson wrote:

digitalphotographer wrote:

... One that I cannot live with is its stubbornness to not let me set the minimum shutter speed so I can get the Aperture I want while ISO floats. ...

I have to totally agree with you on this issue (minimum shutter speed in A mode).
I know you did not want a work around (S mode) but here is how I cope with this RX100 deficiency.

I shoot A mode with auto ISO.
I assigned ISO to the EAST side of the Control Wheel. (moved flash to Fn)
When shutter speed is too slow (indoor shots), I click EAST and turn up ISO.

The is the best workaround I've read so far. But without a dedicated button for ISO or exp compensation,

Well the East/Right wheel button is ISO dedicated and South/Middle  wheel button is dedicated EV compensation.

do you use the wheel for changing ISO?

Yes and for changing EV too

In any case this method is too slow for street shooting where light constantly changes for me.

Sounds like a different camera with auto ISO in M mode would suit you better.

Or I set the lower limit of the Auto ISO range to force the ISO above 125.

M2 lowest AutoISO is at 160, maybe it's different from M1?

The new M2 has a new BSI sensor so base ISO went up to 160 I guess.

Bert

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OP digitalphotographer Contributing Member • Posts: 658
keep now, sell later?

cd23murray wrote:

In fact there is no direct comparison for the RX100 or the RX1 right now.

You are right. I hope Olympus and Panasonic will offer competing products soon.

The RX100 (1 and 2) aren't perfect cameras and I think your suggestion would be a good one, but I get the feeling you don't want to like Sony or the camera (which is fine).

On the contrary, in the original post, I said I already fell in love with the M2

Either way they aren't going to add the features you want any time soon, even with a petition.

This is what worries me, because I predict the next Olympus or Panasonic large-sensor compact will "for sure" have this feature. Oh well, I guess I could sell the M2 later by taking a hit as "rental fees" for a few months.

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OP digitalphotographer Contributing Member • Posts: 658
Re: Minimum AutoISO 160?

BertIverson wrote:

The is the best workaround I've read so far. But without a dedicated button for ISO or exp compensation,

Well the East/Right wheel button is ISO dedicated and South/Middle wheel button is dedicated EV compensation.

Sorry what I meant is a dedicated "dial" to change setting, I wish the zoom in and out dial could be used for changing after the ISO button or EV button is toggled to on.

do you use the wheel for changing ISO?

Yes and for changing EV too

In any case this method is too slow for street shooting where light constantly changes for me.

Sounds like a different camera with auto ISO in M mode would suit you better.

Yes that camera would be RX1, which I can't afford

M2 lowest AutoISO is at 160, maybe it's different from M1?

The new M2 has a new BSI sensor so base ISO went up to 160 I guess.

Cool.

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OP digitalphotographer Contributing Member • Posts: 658
surprise

tesilab wrote:

Unlike you, however, I knew the operational details of the camera before purchase, from reading reviews, and I have never been surprised in any material way.

1. If only Sony posted M2 manual online.

2. It's my bad for assuming an "innovation-leader" like Sony would have included minimum ISO feature which has been around for some time. Lesson learned.

btw, Imaging Resource said "Where many would simply have shipped much the same design with a slight boost in sensor resolution and perhaps a few new firmware features, Sony has made some pretty comprehensive changes, all the while retaining the most important features." Perhaps it's not so "comprehensive" afterall

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newellj Senior Member • Posts: 1,048
Re: biggest complaint for M2 too?

digitalphotographer wrote:

Windschatten wrote:

I absolutely agree with you. This is my biggest complaint about the Sony RX100 and it's a bit disappointing that it hasn't been fixed until today. Making photos from people in lowish light is very hard to do without using the S mode because the shutter 1/30 is too low. Also the argument that we should just give back the camera is silly, the rx100 is a very good camera but it could be so much better with only a small, programmable software fix.

I wonder why I haven't heard much about this "biggest complaint" in any of the reviews except on MingThein.com

I hope more users can voice their disappointment so Sony would not feel complacent to have this "best compact camera of the year"!

Because (1) reviewers don't take real photos and (2) reviewers can't bite the hand that feeds them, which means everyone is above average...really.

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newellj Senior Member • Posts: 1,048
Re: RX100M2 Petition for Minimum shutter speed, should I bother?

My take on this general issue ever since I bought a brand new Leica R5 at introduction (lotsa years ago) was to shoot in P and shift the program.  Yeah, I know, real photographers shoot full M and wannabes shoot A and complete idiots shoot P.  ehhhh, not.    Shooting in P gives me a floor of sorts on shutter speed and I can keep track of the choices the camera is making and shift aperture/shutter speed to suit my judgment about what I want and what I can get out of an exposure.

In this regard, I do agree that the RX100 seems to be optimistic about minimum shutter speeds, but in its favor the minimalist display is both informative and not too obtrusive, and shifting the program is dead-easy.

Worth a try if you otherwise like the camera?

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Ron AKA Veteran Member • Posts: 4,875
Re: Works for static situations but ..
1

digitalphotographer wrote:

Ron AKA wrote:

I wonder if using S Mode and setting the Control Ring for ISO would work for you. Just turn the ring until you get the aperture you want for the selected shutter speed.

But for street shooting, where the lighting conditions drastically changes from one frame to another, while I move in and out of shadows, this is too slow.

Sounds like you should just use the Green Icon and have the camera do it all.

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therobbot Forum Member • Posts: 93
Re: surprise

Did you mean minimal ISO or shutter speed? Because minimum ISO functionality is there.

Sony might be an innovation leader in hardware but their firmware is really awful. I hate the RX100 firmware because there are so many points where it's just not well thought through and even though it would be an easy fix they don't care to change it.

Tobias

Len_Gee
Len_Gee Veteran Member • Posts: 9,686
Re: RX100M2 Petition for Minimum shutter speed, should I bother?

Petition pointless.

Like others have said, the RX100II is not for you.

Good luck with your continued quest.

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OP digitalphotographer Contributing Member • Posts: 658
Re: surprise

therobbot wrote:

Did you mean minimal ISO or shutter speed? Because minimum ISO functionality is there.

Yes I meant minimum shutter speed. I was typing too fast when replying to each post.

Sony might be an innovation leader in hardware but their firmware is really awful. I hate the RX100 firmware because there are so many points where it's just not well thought through and even though it would be an easy fix they don't care to change it.

Actually I just read ib MingThein.com's blog about RX100, comments section, one of the product managers from Sony admitted RX100 was designed 3 years ago, so I assume the original team has since moved on or promoted (since they won best compact camera of the year) so they won't be doing something as "lowly" as adding an "easy fix" which is beneath their pay grade. Besides, they have no time to spare trying to rush RX200 out the gate because next year when other companies come out with features that photographers are asking for, their first-mover advantage in large-sensor compact will be wiped out. (this was part was my own conjecture :-D)

Like I said earlier, whatever the reasons are, it just seems ignorant and arrogant.

Tobias

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OP digitalphotographer Contributing Member • Posts: 658
thx

No text.

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OP digitalphotographer Contributing Member • Posts: 658
absolutely worth a try.

newellj wrote:

Yeah, I know, real photographers shoot full M and wannabes shoot A and complete idiots shoot P. ehhhh, not.

What does it make me when I constantly switch from M to A or P depending on different situations?

Shooting in P gives me a floor of sorts on shutter speed and I can keep track of the choices the camera is making and shift aperture/shutter speed to suit my judgment about what I want and what I can get out of an exposure.

Workable for sure, but not acceptable. But since there is no other choice/competitor (as in large-sensor compact) currently, I'm just stuck with it for now.

Worth a try if you otherwise like the camera?

Definitely trying

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Marti58
MOD Marti58 Forum Pro • Posts: 23,646
seven years ago
1

i joined DPR, been in the Sony forum since, Firmware fixes/requests has been made all the years with every new model for various reasons.

the team has nothing to do with it, its a policy/strategy.

in the past i've been called negative for mentioning it, many of us have been hoping for many years in a row that Sony would listen to the suggestions for FW updates.

as far as i can recall only two or three cameras in the cybershot line had a upgrade/fix in that period.

its a pitty and i think Sony should/could do better in that regard.

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elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 13,674
Re: RX100M2 Petition for Minimum shutter speed, should I bother?

newellj wrote:

My take on this general issue ever since I bought a brand new Leica R5 at introduction (lotsa years ago) was to shoot in P and shift the program. Yeah, I know, real photographers shoot full M and wannabes shoot A and complete idiots shoot P. ehhhh, not. Shooting in P gives me a floor of sorts on shutter speed and I can keep track of the choices the camera is making and shift aperture/shutter speed to suit my judgment about what I want and what I can get out of an exposure.

In this regard, I do agree that the RX100 seems to be optimistic about minimum shutter speeds, but in its favor the minimalist display is both informative and not too obtrusive, and shifting the program is dead-easy.

Worth a try if you otherwise like the camera?

I am interested, but I don't quite understand P shift. Will you give me some understanding and how to use it please?

Thanks

Elliott

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therobbot Forum Member • Posts: 93
Re: surprise
1

It's not a team thing. I've been in firmware / software development. In a good customer-oriented company there is a team called something like "sustaining development". The r&d team hand over the firmware / software to them and they are the ones who do the fixes. However there doesn't seem to be any pressure on Sony to fix anything. I really don't understand, why reviewers don't push harder. The bad firmware design should have led to reviews that said "this camera would be worth a gold award but because of the firmware we don't give it". THIS might have called Sony out to do something about it. Without it, why should they bother? (Maybe they should since I surely will switch to another company once they have closed the technology gap. Any I hope many others will as well)

oklaphotog Senior Member • Posts: 1,093
Re: surprise

digitalphotographer wrote:

therobbot wrote:

Did you mean minimal ISO or shutter speed? Because minimum ISO functionality is there.

Yes I meant minimum shutter speed. I was typing too fast when replying to each post.

Sony might be an innovation leader in hardware but their firmware is really awful. I hate the RX100 firmware because there are so many points where it's just not well thought through and even though it would be an easy fix they don't care to change it.

Actually I just read ib MingThein.com's blog about RX100, comments section, one of the product managers from Sony admitted RX100 was designed 3 years ago, so I assume the original team has since moved on or promoted (since they won best compact camera of the year) so they won't be doing something as "lowly" as adding an "easy fix" which is beneath their pay grade. Besides, they have no time to spare trying to rush RX200 out the gate because next year when other companies come out with features that photographers are asking for, their first-mover advantage in large-sensor compact will be wiped out. (this was part was my own conjecture :-D)

Like I said earlier, whatever the reasons are, it just seems ignorant and arrogant.

Or maybe they didn't feel the need to include it since hardly anyone uses the feature which is far from arrogant. It is a point and shoot after all.

oklaphotog Senior Member • Posts: 1,093
Re: Works for static situations but ..

digitalphotographer wrote:

Ron AKA wrote:

I wonder if using S Mode and setting the Control Ring for ISO would work for you. Just turn the ring until you get the aperture you want for the selected shutter speed.

But for street shooting, where the lighting conditions drastically changes from one frame to another, while I move in and out of shadows, this is too slow.

Makes you wonder what all those great street shooters and photojournalists in days of old did (and do now) without auto ISO.

You know you could set the iso based off of the shadows for minimum required shutter speed, leave it there and shoot in aperture priority. Or you could learn to deliberately drag the shutter a little bit to get some movement in the images giving them some life.

Craig Gillette Veteran Member • Posts: 9,544
Re: seven years ago

I don't recall many firmware releases for any of the companies for problems or upgrades.  The 7D (KM) got an upgrade IIRC, to cover some features added to the 5D.

I can see why companies are hesitant to throw new money into (free) post delivery upgrades versus new products.  I also recall that the process which would seem to be fairly straight forward, wasn't.  Translating the technical instructions into multiple languages, download problems, memory card problems, etc., seemed to result in a not small number of problems with failed upgrades and damage to the cameras.

newellj Senior Member • Posts: 1,048
Re: RX100M2 Petition for Minimum shutter speed, should I bother?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

newellj wrote:

My take on this general issue ever since I bought a brand new Leica R5 at introduction (lotsa years ago) was to shoot in P and shift the program. Yeah, I know, real photographers shoot full M and wannabes shoot A and complete idiots shoot P. ehhhh, not. Shooting in P gives me a floor of sorts on shutter speed and I can keep track of the choices the camera is making and shift aperture/shutter speed to suit my judgment about what I want and what I can get out of an exposure.

In this regard, I do agree that the RX100 seems to be optimistic about minimum shutter speeds, but in its favor the minimalist display is both informative and not too obtrusive, and shifting the program is dead-easy.

Worth a try if you otherwise like the camera?

I am interested, but I don't quite understand P shift. Will you give me some understanding and how to use it please?

Thanks

Elliott

With the mode set to P, if you rotate the rear wheel you can "shift" the program-set values to increase the shutter speed/open the aperture (or slow the shutter speed/close the aperture).  I usually have my display set to show the exposure data on the bottom of the frame, and you can see the aperture and shutter speed combination change.  The camera's metered EV remains the same.  Freebie: if you've toggled AEL, this display will show an * on the right hand side of the info bar on the bottom of the LCD.

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