As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....

Started Jul 12, 2013 | Discussions
Ben Herrmann
Ben Herrmann Forum Pro • Posts: 18,632
As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....
9

Hello sports fans...

I've been on these forums since 2002 and have shot with quite a few cameras since that time.  I'm currently quite immersed in the micro 4/3 world - shooting with the likes of the Olympus OMD E-M5, E-PL5, E-P3 and Panasonic GF1, GX1, GF5, G5.  And then I picked up the Fuji X-E1 - again, a wonderful addition to the field.  I've never been a fanboy of any one brand, and I've long since discovered that each brand have some wonderful photographic instruments.

But I've got to admit that I enjoy surprises - especially when my previous speculations or assumptions have led me down the wrong road.  You see, I recently picked up an EOS-M (with latest firmware update) with the 18-55 and 22 and I've got to tell you that I was taken aback at the gorgeous IQ that this camera is capable of achieving.  Previously, I laughed at its release - like many folks did, just shaking my head in amazement when it was announced by Canon.  However, talk about a 180 on my behalf.   Ergonomically, I realize that everything is subjective, but I find the camera to be a delight to hold and shoot.  I can't wait to get my paws on the 11-22 that Canon released for the M - but it's not yet available in the US (dam, I wish that would change).

Granted, Canon came really late to the table with this release, but I firmly believe if they continue this line that they'll be on to something big.  Heck, I was impressed with the Fuji X-E1 being as small as it is and having an APS-sized sensor.  Well, the EOS-M, size-wise, puts all that to shame and those 18 MP's are downright gorgeous.

As for the 18-55, it's a shame that it's referred to (or considered) as a kit lens.  It's build quality all the way around is something more like what you'd expect out of a high-end lens and I find the glass to be quite sharp for a zoom.  Just like the Fuji 18-55 (for their X series of cams), this Canon 18-55 is way too good to be labeled as a kit lens.

So although I'm not new to Canon - having shot with a variety of Canon DSLR's some 7-8 years ago - and having kept up with their enthusiast models to this date - this EOS-M has me rethinking my previous attitude about the EOS-M being released too little, too late.  I am downright impressed with this EOS-M and there is no other way to express it.

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Have a great one....
Bernd (Ben) W. Herrmann
North Carolina, USA
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DaveInPA Regular Member • Posts: 352
Re: As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....

Thanks for the input, Ben!

How does the IQ compare to the OMD E-M5?  I have the OMD but also ordered the EOS-M to have something more pocketable.

Dave

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007peter
007peter Forum Pro • Posts: 11,196
agree, as M43 + NEX owner

I just got mine B&H $300 special 45min ago.  Still trying out the camera, but I'm really impressed by the new STRAP with Quick Release.  This thing is fantastic, it no longer required convoluted twisting and untwisting to tight and untight the strap.  I can just clip and release.  I love it.

More feature to raved about as I learned about my new toy over this weekends.

AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,589
Just got mine too Ben --->
5

I Just got mine too Ben - the biggest shock was the 22mm prime - it`s every bit as good as the Panny 20mm fopr sharpness , but even better edge to edge and faster to focus with less CA ! .. this lens comfortably beats the Fujj X100`s built in lens by quite a margin for edges and of course doesn`t suffer the irritating Focus shift which drove me away from the X100 ........

I had the NEX series for a long time (since the 5 came out til a year after the 7 landed) and there`s no lens for NEX with a 35 or wider FOV which even touches the Canon 22 , the Sigma 19mm (the closest) is disappointing at the edges and suffers CA .

Like the 40mm F2.8 Pancake on Full frame , the 22mm M lens is quite a Shocker for the money it costs both in optics and build, canon need to make more lenses like this - I wish they`d made a compact 10mm F4 prime of this quality  instead of that 11-22 zoom and they need to add a 35 F1.8 (copy the Nikon one and convert it to Mirrorless) and a 60mm F1.8 with IS (to give us the 85mm) ..

the one lens which is really missing is a cheap 55-200 F4-5.6 IS , all rest have one, even Fuji now ..

As for the M itself, the build reminds me more of the 1 series DSLRs than the S90 level I expected - the IQ was always a given thing - I used a 550D in RAW for 3 years as a Leisure , event , press and backup body , the M of course is identical as it has the same sensor - maybe not up to the latest Nikon or Fuji APS-C at highest ISOs but with that really weak AA filter and lovely colour, superb up to ISO3200, far more detail than a D7000 (which i`ve had and replaced with the 7100 as a secondary work cam) and more than what I`ve ever seen from the X-Pro1  .

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AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,589
Re: As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....
1

You`ll need to shoot RAW and use a decent converter like Capture one but it`ll beat the OMD for detail, DR and high ISOs by quite a margin.

the JPG engine sadly is typical canon APS-C - loaded with unnecessary detail killing NR at base ISO (amazingly it`s actually quite rational at high ISOs when turned to LOWest) .. if you`re a Staunch JPG only shooter who runs from RAW files as fast as possible them from what I`ve seen the OMD will beat it easily and be the better bet, at lower ISOs anyway  . I really wish that Canon and Sony would STOP loading their low ISO JPGs with NR , the Canon site 70D samples are even worse than the M or 550/600/650D for it .

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Peter Bendheim
Peter Bendheim Senior Member • Posts: 2,190
Re: As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....

Personally I think it's way better than the OM-D image quality wise unless you have really expensive MF3 lenses, my OM-D is now no longer in my ownership.

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Picturenaut
Picturenaut Regular Member • Posts: 330
Re: Just got mine too Ben --->

the one lens which is really missing is a cheap 55-200 F4-5.6 IS , all rest have one, even Fuji now

How about Canon's  EF-S 55-250 F4-5.6 IS? It is no STM, but should work. It is really not the sharpest lens in particular close to the long end (I had one) but light and the price-performance-ratio is very good.

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vinrouge0 Regular Member • Posts: 277
The 100D and 'M' have converted me back to Canon

As a long term [35 years] Canon user, I seem to have spent the last 4 years or so spending more time thinking about and changing the gear I was using rather than taking photographs. As an intermittent Nikon user over the years, I bought a D5100 but did not like the overall green cast and the orange skin tones. Ok, easy to post process, but why should you have to [my D700 was better in this respect]. I wanted less weight so I sold the Nikons and bought an Olympus EM5 which I was initially happy with even though I did not enjoy holding it and the ergonomics in general. The images also seemed to have a courser, digital look to them than I was used to and despite what some say, noise is an issue. I spent almost a year with the Fuji XE-1 and loved it in many ways but was seduced by the 100D and when the updated firmware was released, by the 'M' as well.

I am now happy that I have a highly portable [I travel a lot and my ageing bones were beginning to struggle] outfit that gives me images with great colour from the outset and that respond well to post processing from RAW. I do not even miss the so called 'Oly' or 'Fuji' colours and I am happier with the output from the Canons than I was with either the the EM5 or the XE-1 following post processing. The one caveat to that is the more limited dynamic range given that that I do much of my photography in the high contrast light of Spain where I now spend about 40% of my time. I will be glad if DR is improved in the 70D and whichever of the 2 rumoured next generation 'M's' have the same sensor.

Focussing on the 'M' is no longer an issue and after the the XE-1, it is almost revolutionary! The adapter allows me to use my EF and EF-S lenses on the 'M' with no compromise on performance. The 90EX acts as a flash commander and allows me to use my 430EX off camera in wireless mode. All in all, this really is developing into a very flexible and desirable system!

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AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,589
Re: Just got mine too Ben --->

How about Canon's  EF-S 55-250 F4-5.6 IS? It is no STM, but should work. It is really not the sharpest lens in particular close to the long end (I had one) but light and the price-performance-ratio is very good.

1:- it`s OK for those of us who got the EOS adapter but for the 18-55 kit owners (and USA 22mm kit owners) , it becomes £100 more than the shelf price .

2:- t`s not the best thing on earth, it`s both challenged optically and IS wise - not as good optically as the full frame 55-200-USM-II it failed to replace due to not being full frame..

3:- even if it was optically good enough to warrant buying the £100 adapter for and if the IS was better than it is, it`s still got the old slow AF system which isn`t fast even on a 7D and is a lot larger than a 55-200 STM would be .

So IMO a viable stopgap for those who own it (as is any other EOS fit lens in that range, especially the Tamron 70-300VC ), maybe even worth Adapter owners buying a used one - but not worth Buying new AND shelling out on adapter for, it`s just not that good. a used Tamron 70-300VC would be a vastly better option if going down that route.

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007peter
007peter Forum Pro • Posts: 11,196
M43 need to sells Panasonic 20mm F/1.7 + GX1 for $299 to compete

AdamT wrote:

I Just got mine too Ben - the biggest shock was the 22mm prime - it`s every bit as good as the Panny 20mm fopr sharpness , but even better edge to edge and faster to focus with less CA ! .. this lens comfortably beats the Fujj X100`s built in lens by quite a margin for edges and of course doesn`t suffer the irritating Focus shift which drove me away from the X100 ........

I really like Panasonic 20mm f/1.7, but I wasn't willing to pay its nearly $400 USD retail price.  Had Panasonic release a GX1 + 20mm f/1.7 for $299 ~ $400, I would have been all over it.

But its too late now, Canon beat M43 by releasing a Fast F/2 Sharp Prime for such a low price.  As much as I like M43, I think I'll be locked into canon eos-m world soon.

I wish Panny + Olympus would wake up and start releasing its m43 camera with a sharp affordable pancake lens for $299 to compete.

papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....
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AdamT wrote:

You`ll need to shoot RAW and use a decent converter like Capture one but it`ll beat the OMD for detail, DR and high ISOs by quite a margin.

Hmmm, I don't think so. DXOmark score the OMD higher and it's a stop better at base ISO on dynamic range. This pretty much matches my experience of both these cameras. The OMD has better highlight recovery for sure in it's raw files. These two are very close but the OMD sensor is better, no doubt in my mind and I do own and use the EOS-M. Canon need to improve the dynamic range on their sensors though they are good for other things, such as detail and colour IMHO.

the JPG engine sadly is typical canon APS-C - loaded with unnecessary detail killing NR at base ISO (amazingly it`s actually quite rational at high ISOs when turned to LOWest) .. if you`re a Staunch JPG only shooter who runs from RAW files as fast as possible them from what I`ve seen the OMD will beat it easily and be the better bet, at lower ISOs anyway . I really wish that Canon and Sony would STOP loading their low ISO JPGs with NR , the Canon site 70D samples are even worse than the M or 550/600/650D for it .

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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Me too.....
2

Hi Ben,

I recently said as much on the m4/3's forum here, and to be fair, didn't get attacked too much for saying it. I no longer have the OMD because I moved to Canon FF and the EOS-M makes more sense to me now. The OMD is the better performer overall IMHO, but like yourself, I was pleasantly surprised at how well thought out the EOS-M is. I love the simplicity of the touch screen and I find it a very pleasant camera to use. The two lenses I have are both of very good quality and I'm pretty picky on that. I also have the adaptor and my EF primes work great on it after the firmware upgrade, I don't find them too bulky either. Nice work Canon, keep it up.

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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....
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Peter Bendheim wrote:

Personally I think it's way better than the OM-D image quality wise unless you have really expensive MF3 lenses, my OM-D is now no longer in my ownership.

I too sold my OMD but I'd have to disagree on that comment. DXOmark doesn't support it either, certainly not in terms of dynamic range, where the OMD is clearly better where it matters. However, the EOS-M certainly has very nice image quality and I prefer the colour from it, resolution wise I doubt you could pick these two apart from a decent sized print and a reasonable lens and you can't really go wrong with either IMHO.

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ntsan Contributing Member • Posts: 803
Re: As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....
1

I bought the EOS M because it is cheaper than get a 17mm F1.8, and probably get 11-22mm from elsewhere since it will not be released in USA.

M43 is still my main with the GH3 for my video side production, I too sold EM-5 but only to give way to the GH3 for much better video capability. With EOS-M it will be my portable camera for snaps to replace the Pen that I had used for many years.

One major bummer is still the AF for EOS M, even after the AF boost I still wish it could be faster, compare to the M43 machine which you get AF lock n loaded once u press the shutter.

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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: As an avid m4/3 (and other ILC) user, let me chime in here....

ntsan wrote:

I bought the EOS M because it is cheaper than get a 17mm F1.8

True enough.

I think with price drop it probably take more from NEX user, if the market share in Japan is any indication (after the EOS-M release in Japan the Sony NEX and Panasonic M43 share take a dive, Olympus still remain #1 for market share)

And even the AF boost I still wish it could be faster, compare to the M43 machine which you get AF lock n loaded once u press the shutter.

True, however, it auto focuses my EF lenses much faster than any m4/3's camera will autofocus 4/3's Zuiko lenses with an adaptor, that was a smart move by Canon. I expect this speed to increase and it means lenses like my 35mm F2 and 50mm F1.4 work very nicely on the EOS-M and give me a different fov than on my 5D2, so they serve two purposes, that works well for me.

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AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,589
Re: M43 need to sells Panasonic 20mm F/1.7 + GX1 for $299 to compete
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I wish Panny + Olympus would wake up and start releasing its m43 camera with a sharp affordable pancake lens for $299 to compete.

I wish they`d Ditch the 4/3 sensor and go APS-C !!  . they can sure make glass but the sensors suck in comparison to each generation of APS-C

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Picturenaut
Picturenaut Regular Member • Posts: 330
Re: Just got mine too Ben --->

AdamT wrote:

How about Canon's EF-S 55-250 F4-5.6 IS? It is no STM, but should work. It is really not the sharpest lens in particular close to the long end (I had one) but light and the price-performance-ratio is very good.

1:- it`s OK for those of us who got the EOS adapter but for the 18-55 kit owners (and USA 22mm kit owners) , it becomes £100 more than the shelf price .

2:- t`s not the best thing on earth, it`s both challenged optically and IS wise - not as good optically as the full frame 55-200-USM-II it failed to replace due to not being full frame..

3:- even if it was optically good enough to warrant buying the £100 adapter for and if the IS was better than it is, it`s still got the old slow AF system which isn`t fast even on a 7D and is a lot larger than a 55-200 STM would be .

So IMO a viable stopgap for those who own it (as is any other EOS fit lens in that range, especially the Tamron 70-300VC ), maybe even worth Adapter owners buying a used one - but not worth Buying new AND shelling out on adapter for, it`s just not that good. a used Tamron 70-300VC would be a vastly better option if going down that route.

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Well, the 55-250 is no match for really good glass. I have both the EF 70-200/4 L IS USM and the EF 70-200/2.8 L IS USM II, and they play in a completely different league but are expensive and the 2.8 is heavy. But you can make with the 55-250 not too bad images, I e.g. shot this one here with it and my old 450D/Rebel XSi:

I think the Tamron 70-300 isn't better, optically.

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AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,589
Re: Just got mine too Ben --->
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Nice shot - a good buy to add to a 450D for £100 or so second hand but still IMO poor value for EOS-M owners who don`t have the EOS adapter .

I think the Tamron 70-300 isn't better, optically.

Oh it is - by quite a margin, it`s better than the Canon 70-300IS too , its infinity 300mm wideopen performance even beats the Nikon 70-300VR and overall isn`t way behind the (IMO Painfully overpriced) canon 70-300IS L .... I was stunned at how good the Tamron70-300VC actually is and the IS is excellent too .

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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Simply not true.....
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AdamT wrote:

I wish Panny + Olympus would wake up and start releasing its m43 camera with a sharp affordable pancake lens for $299 to compete.

I wish they`d Ditch the 4/3 sensor and go APS-C !! . they can sure make glass but the sensors suck in comparison to each generation of APS-C

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The Panasonic GH3, Olympus OMD, EPL-5 and EPM2 sensors all out-perform the sensor on the EOS-M. This is pretty impressive considering the difference in size. Canon are the ones who are lagging behind on sensor performance at the moment while the Sony sensors are clearly the best. To me the difference is not important enough for me to worry about, but it is there and plenty of Canon users are aware of it.

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AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,589
Re: Simply not true.....

as soon as I saw ""DXO mark"" mentioned I stopped reading your last post.....

I found the OMD to be a fantastically sharp camera in RAW with a superb JPG engine but neither the DR nor high ISOs to match the Canon 18Mp sensor let alone the Sony and Toshiba ones in the latest Nikons and Fujis

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