UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!

Started Jul 10, 2013 | Discussions
sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,818
UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!
12

No filter

s14mm f/2.5 @ f/6.3 with Tiffen Haze 2A filter

Anders W, who is the smartest contributor to this forum, was right!

The same above shows the same photo take without and then with a Tiffen Haze 2A filter. You can clearly see there is less fringing using the filter.

And you will have to take my word for the additional observations:

  • There was also an improvement using the Tiffen Haze 2A filter with the m.Zuiko 14-42mm IIR lens. But it was not as dramatic because the m.Zuiko 14-42mm IIR lens doesn't produce as much purple fringing as the 14mm f/2.5 pancake lens.
  • Using a Hoya UV(O) filter (which I think is a 2C filter and not a 2A filter and thus it blocks less UV light) there was also some improvement, but not as much as with using the 2A filter.
  • I didn't notice any glare or loss of contrast using the filter, but I was standing in the shade and it was kind of cloudy.

So from now on, I intend to always use the Haze 2A filter when taking pictures out doors, regardless of what lens I'm using.

But it's unfortunate that no one seems to sell a 2E filter which is even stronger. And it's unfortunate that there are no 2A filters in 37mm or 46mm which are both common filter sizes for m43 lenses. With the step-up ring and a 52mm filter, you can't use the lens hood with the m.Zuiko 14-42mm IIR. And it's unfortunate that Hoya doesn't make such a filter because they have superior coating on their filters while Tiffen filters are uncoated (although I didn't notice any damage to the image caused by that).

bradevans Contributing Member • Posts: 886
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!
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OP sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,818
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!

bradevans wrote:

Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/565688-REG/Formatt_BF_37_UVHAZ2A_37mm_Ultraviolet_UV_Haze.html

Yes, that is a 37mm 2a filter, but it's not clear that it's really available for sale, because according to Formatt's website, no such size exists:

http://www.formatt.co.uk/glass-filters/clear-and-uv-absorbing/haze-2a-filter.aspx

I suppose I could always order one just to see what happens.

Fredrik Glckner Veteran Member • Posts: 3,678
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!

Was this on the E-M5 camera? From what I understand, it is quite sensitive to IR light, that my be related.

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/

Dr_Jon Veteran Member • Posts: 5,278
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!
1

UV and IR are at the opposite ends of the visible light spectrum. A 2A filter nominally starts at 405nm and visible light goes to below that (390nm is the usually agreed figure). Note when I say "starts" it will still reduce light at the purple end of the Spectrum at frequencies above that, just by less (it's not an absolutely sharp cut-off). I have no idea of how much light will get through the UV protection already in the lens (modern lenses block a lot of UV, intentionally) to make electrons in the E-M5 sensor, but I assume most won't make it before you add the filter. The filter will just reduce that even more.

It may be that the 20mm/1.7, having less glass in it than a non-pancake, reduces UV by a less than typical lenses and so is helped more by a UV filter.

However, as adding a 2A filter will knock off a bit of the visible purple end of the Spectrum it's not an ideal full-time solution IMHO. I'm not sure how well it would go with purple flowers etc. Generally 2A filters are used where the purple would be a big issue and more important to fix than worry about that end of the spectrum. Personally I wouldn't leave one on a lens permanently, but it is a possible solution to fringing.

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Hen3ry
Hen3ry Forum Pro • Posts: 18,218
Thank you Anders W, and thank you for following up, Sigala!

Wow, I tend to think Anders talks a lot of sense but that's dramatic. Many thanks for coming back with your results. That's stunning. It would be interesting to see what happened with a 2A on the Oly f2.8 17mm which in my experience had purple fringing that could practically take over the picture.

But I use the 14 all the time on my Oly E-PL3 so I will be looking at this when I get the chance (no UV filters for sale here in paradise, the New Guinea Islands).

If I remember from early days, the 2A isn't strictly a UV filter, which tended tp be a very light straw color; it is a lot stronger than that, noticeably brown if I remember correctly -- more the kind of filter you would put on when shooting in overcast or open shade. In general shooting, it could result in an unwanted warm color cast.

I might be wrong, and I might not be able to remember the names of my kids ("hey, Ana … Jessica … whoever! Can’t we have a bit of peace and quiet here?"), but generally I am fairly confident with stuff like that which dates back half a century to my 20s!

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers, geoff

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!

sigala1 wrote:

No filter

s

14mm f/2.5 @ f/6.3 with Tiffen Haze 2A filter

Anders W, who is the smartest contributor to this forum, was right!

The same above shows the same photo take without and then with a Tiffen Haze 2A filter. You can clearly see there is less fringing using the filter.

And you will have to take my word for the additional observations:

  • There was also an improvement using the Tiffen Haze 2A filter with the m.Zuiko 14-42mm IIR lens. But it was not as dramatic because the m.Zuiko 14-42mm IIR lens doesn't produce as much purple fringing as the 14mm f/2.5 pancake lens.
  • Using a Hoya UV(O) filter (which I think is a 2C filter and not a 2A filter and thus it blocks less UV light) there was also some improvement, but not as much as with using the 2A filter.
  • I didn't notice any glare or loss of contrast using the filter, but I was standing in the shade and it was kind of cloudy.

So from now on, I intend to always use the Haze 2A filter when taking pictures out doors, regardless of what lens I'm using.

But it's unfortunate that no one seems to sell a 2E filter which is even stronger. And it's unfortunate that there are no 2A filters in 37mm or 46mm which are both common filter sizes for m43 lenses. With the step-up ring and a 52mm filter, you can't use the lens hood with the m.Zuiko 14-42mm IIR. And it's unfortunate that Hoya doesn't make such a filter because they have superior coating on their filters while Tiffen filters are uncoated (although I didn't notice any damage to the image caused by that).

You are welcome! Glad to see this works out as expected!

As to your additional observations:

All of these are in line with what I'd expect except possibly the impact of the Hoya UV (0). Although this is an unusually strong UV filter (the cut point is at approximately 390 nm) as far as "ordinary" (below Wratten 2-series filters) UVs go (as shown by Lenstip's test with transmission curves here), I didn't find much of an effect when I tried it with the 14/2.5 about half a year ago (see here). It was only when I tested with a significantly stronger 2A (with a cut point of about 415 nm, see here) that I found a noticeable improvement (see here).

In line with your observation, the impact on PF is likely to be slightly stronger for Pany than for Oly lenses since the latter probably have their correction of chromatic aberration adapted to the weaker on-sensor UV filter used on Oly camera. But, in agreement with your results, some impact is likely to be visible with lenses from both manufacturers.

While I certainly agree with you that a richer selection of 2A and 2E filters would be welcome, I think we should be glad that these filters, originally designed to improve contrast in hazy weather when used with B&W film, are at all available any more. I wouldn't think that these have ever been very "hot" sellers, especially not in recent years.

As I mentioned in the earlier thread where we discussed this matter, the only of 2A and 2E glass filters manufacturers that I have so far been able to find are B+W (named 420, equivalent to 2A), Formatt (2A as "glass filter" and 2E as "HD glass filter"), and Tiffen (2A). B+W reportedly makes them with threads down to 37mm but I'd expect these to be very expensive (as everything B+W).

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Thank you Anders W, and thank you for following up, Sigala!

Hen3ry wrote:

Wow, I tend to think Anders talks a lot of sense but that's dramatic. Many thanks for coming back with your results. That's stunning. It would be interesting to see what happened with a 2A on the Oly f2.8 17mm which in my experience had purple fringing that could practically take over the picture.

But I use the 14 all the time on my Oly E-PL3 so I will be looking at this when I get the chance (no UV filters for sale here in paradise, the New Guinea Islands).

If I remember from early days, the 2A isn't strictly a UV filter, which tended tp be a very light straw color; it is a lot stronger than that, noticeably brown if I remember correctly -- more the kind of filter you would put on when shooting in overcast or open shade. In general shooting, it could result in an unwanted warm color cast.

I might be wrong, and I might not be able to remember the names of my kids ("hey, Ana … Jessica … whoever! Can’t we have a bit of peace and quiet here?"), but generally I am fairly confident with stuff like that which dates back half a century to my 20s!

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers, geoff

You are wrong Geoff (although not that far off nevertheless)!

An ordinary UV is pretty much uncolored, a Skylight filter (1A, 1B) pinkish, and the 2-series of filters (from weakest to strongest: 2C, 2B, 2A, 2E) pale yellow (except possibly for the weakest ones which are pretty much uncolored). With a 2A or 2E, you need to adjust WB slightly but not much (we are talking a couple of hundred K and a few units toward magenta on the tint scale).

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photo perzon
photo perzon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,653
what about for Pana 20mm 1.7

which filter to use?

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!

Dr_Jon wrote:

UV and IR are at the opposite ends of the visible light spectrum. A 2A filter nominally starts at 405nm and visible light goes to below that (390nm is the usually agreed figure). Note when I say "starts" it will still reduce light at the purple end of the Spectrum at frequencies above that, just by less (it's not an absolutely sharp cut-off).

No it isn't an absolutely sharp cut off, but pretty sharp nevertheless. The transition zone for at least some of these filters is about 20 nm.

I have no idea of how much light will get through the UV protection already in the lens (modern lenses block a lot of UV, intentionally) to make electrons in the E-M5 sensor, but I assume most won't make it before you add the filter. The filter will just reduce that even more.

It may be that the 20mm/1.7, having less glass in it than a non-pancake, reduces UV by a less than typical lenses and so is helped more by a UV filter.

It's more the on-sensor UV filters used on digital cameras that eliminate the UV than the glass in the lens. The main reason why we see more PF with the same lens (e.g., the 20/1.7) on Oly than on Pany cameras (see here) is that Oly uses a weaker on-sensor UV filter (cut-point below 400 nm) than Pany (cut-point about 425 nm) as expemplified here.

However, as adding a 2A filter will knock off a bit of the visible purple end of the Spectrum it's not an ideal full-time solution IMHO. I'm not sure how well it would go with purple flowers etc.

If there'd be a problem, it's more likely with violet (a pure color between blue and UV) than with purple/magenta (a mix of red and blue). Now RGB systems cannot really record violet anyway (it would take a fourth channel to do that) but has to simulate it. On the display side, it is clear that the simulation is accomplished by simply substituting shades of purple/magenta for violet. On the recording side, I am not sure how this is handled. But my guess is that when the blue channel gets sufficiently dominant (hardly any green or red), this is interpreted as violet (i.e., displayed as purple/magenta).

Generally 2A filters are used where the purple would be a big issue and more important to fix than worry about that end of the spectrum. Personally I wouldn't leave one on a lens permanently, but it is a possible solution to fringing.

I am using a 2A permanently on my 7-14 since a while back (a gel filter affixed at the rear end by means of the filter holder designed for the 8 mm FE) and haven't noticed any problem with color (apart from having to white-balance slightly differently). On the 7-14, the filter does not only eliminate the PF but also the even more troublesome purple flare that this lens tends to produce in certain cases when used with the E-M5 (and other Oly cameras).

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!

bradevans wrote:

Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/565688-REG/Formatt_BF_37_UVHAZ2A_37mm_Ultraviolet_UV_Haze.html

Good find. Formatt doesn't list a 2A in 37 mm on their own home page here

http://www.formatt.co.uk/glass-filters/clear-and-uv-absorbing/glass-filters.aspx

so I didn't think they made anything smaller than 40.5 mm. The B&H listing you found suggest they do.

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OP sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,818
Re: what about for Pana 20mm 1.7

photo perzon wrote:

which filter to use?

The only readily available filter in the United States is a Tiffen 52mm Haze 2A, and you can get a 46mm to 52mm step up ring.

Unfortunately, the Tiffen filters are uncoated (but otherwise, as far as I know, nothing wrong with them), but lack of coating will increase flare if you don't have a lens hood, and MIGHT cause ghosting around backlit subjects. I will have to experiment more and let you know if I find any problems.

Ulric Veteran Member • Posts: 4,532
Re: what about for Pana 20mm 1.7

sigala1 wrote:

photo perzon wrote:

which filter to use?

The only readily available filter in the United States is a Tiffen 52mm Haze 2A, and you can get a 46mm to 52mm step up ring.

Unfortunately, the Tiffen filters are uncoated (but otherwise, as far as I know, nothing wrong with them), but lack of coating will increase flare if you don't have a lens hood, and MIGHT cause ghosting around backlit subjects. I will have to experiment more and let you know if I find any problems.

During my unsuccessful attempts to locate a 46mm 2A filter, I came across this comparison where the Tiffen filter stands out in an unflattering way:

http://www.kenandchristine.com/Other/Equipment-Tests/Filter-Tests/1054387_ZLJFtM

I have a Tiffen Haze-1 filter on my 20mm. It is slightly stronger than ordinary UV filters but couldn't save this mosquito from looking like it had a dose of radioactive bug spray:

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Ulric Veteran Member • Posts: 4,532
Re: what about for Pana 20mm 1.7

Ulric wrote:

I have a Tiffen Haze-1 filter on my 20mm. It is slightly stronger than ordinary UV filters but couldn't save this mosquito from looking like it had a dose of radioactive bug spray:

Wrong! The filter on my 20mm is a Hoya UV(0). The Tiffen Haze-1 is on my 14mm.

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peevee1 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,247
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!

Anders W wrote:

If there'd be a problem, it's more likely with violet (a pure color between blue and UV) than with purple/magenta (a mix of red and blue). Now RGB systems cannot really record violet anyway (it would take a fourth channel to do that) but has to simulate it. On the display side, it is clear that the simulation is accomplished by simply substituting shades of purple/magenta for violet. On the recording side, I am not sure how this is handled. But my guess is that when the blue channel gets sufficiently dominant (hardly any green or red), this is interpreted as violet (i.e., displayed as purple/magenta).

Probably the same way as our eye see it - must be relatively low signal from blue channel without any green and red. It's not like we see light frequencies directly, it's the same principle with L,M,S cones working as R,G,B pixels (well, there are rods working as W pixels too for good low light sensitivity).

Obviously, the closer the curves of the color filter array (or layer color response) to those, the better color fidelity will be.

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: UV 2A filter makes purple fringing go away: thank you Anders W!

peevee1 wrote:

Anders W wrote:

If there'd be a problem, it's more likely with violet (a pure color between blue and UV) than with purple/magenta (a mix of red and blue). Now RGB systems cannot really record violet anyway (it would take a fourth channel to do that) but has to simulate it. On the display side, it is clear that the simulation is accomplished by simply substituting shades of purple/magenta for violet. On the recording side, I am not sure how this is handled. But my guess is that when the blue channel gets sufficiently dominant (hardly any green or red), this is interpreted as violet (i.e., displayed as purple/magenta).

Probably the same way as our eye see it - must be relatively low signal from blue channel without any green and red. It's not like we see light frequencies directly, it's the same principle with L,M,S cones working as R,G,B pixels (well, there are rods working as W pixels too for good low light sensitivity).

Yes, I know. Our eyes are three-channel systems too so the only way we can really see violet is because of the relative absence of green and red. BTW: I suppose you meant to say "high signal" from blue channel without any green and red rather than "low signal".

Obviously, the closer the curves of the color filter array (or layer color response) to those, the better color fidelity will be.

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OP sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,818
Magenta?

Anders W wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Anders W wrote:

If there'd be a problem, it's more likely with violet (a pure color between blue and UV) than with purple/magenta (a mix of red and blue). Now RGB systems cannot really record violet anyway (it would take a fourth channel to do that) but has to simulate it. On the display side, it is clear that the simulation is accomplished by simply substituting shades of purple/magenta for violet. On the recording side, I am not sure how this is handled. But my guess is that when the blue channel gets sufficiently dominant (hardly any green or red), this is interpreted as violet (i.e., displayed as purple/magenta).

Probably the same way as our eye see it - must be relatively low signal from blue channel without any green and red. It's not like we see light frequencies directly, it's the same principle with L,M,S cones working as R,G,B pixels (well, there are rods working as W pixels too for good low light sensitivity).

Yes, I know. Our eyes are three-channel systems too so the only way we can really see violet is because of the relative absence of green and red. BTW: I suppose you meant to say "high signal" from blue channel without any green and red rather than "low signal".

Obviously, the closer the curves of the color filter array (or layer color response) to those, the better color fidelity will be.

Now if only you can explain to me why we see magenta, because it's not a color on the color spectrum.

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Magenta?

sigala1 wrote:

Anders W wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Anders W wrote:

If there'd be a problem, it's more likely with violet (a pure color between blue and UV) than with purple/magenta (a mix of red and blue). Now RGB systems cannot really record violet anyway (it would take a fourth channel to do that) but has to simulate it. On the display side, it is clear that the simulation is accomplished by simply substituting shades of purple/magenta for violet. On the recording side, I am not sure how this is handled. But my guess is that when the blue channel gets sufficiently dominant (hardly any green or red), this is interpreted as violet (i.e., displayed as purple/magenta).

Probably the same way as our eye see it - must be relatively low signal from blue channel without any green and red. It's not like we see light frequencies directly, it's the same principle with L,M,S cones working as R,G,B pixels (well, there are rods working as W pixels too for good low light sensitivity).

Yes, I know. Our eyes are three-channel systems too so the only way we can really see violet is because of the relative absence of green and red. BTW: I suppose you meant to say "high signal" from blue channel without any green and red rather than "low signal".

Obviously, the closer the curves of the color filter array (or layer color response) to those, the better color fidelity will be.

Now if only you can explain to me why we see magenta, because it's not a color on the color spectrum.

The color spectrum only shows how we perceive each specific wavelength of light. Many (most?) objects we look at, however, reflect several different wavelengths and these wavelengths are not necessarily contiguous. Purple/magenta (a mix of wavelengths from the short and long end of the spectrum) is one example.

Each combination of wavelengths does not correspond to a unique color perception. Some combinations of wavelengths result in the same perceived color as others. Combinations of wavelengths that are perceived in the same way are known as metamers. See here for further info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color)

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OP sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,818
Tiffen filters

Ulric wrote:

sigala1 wrote:

photo perzon wrote:

which filter to use?

The only readily available filter in the United States is a Tiffen 52mm Haze 2A, and you can get a 46mm to 52mm step up ring.

Unfortunately, the Tiffen filters are uncoated (but otherwise, as far as I know, nothing wrong with them), but lack of coating will increase flare if you don't have a lens hood, and MIGHT cause ghosting around backlit subjects. I will have to experiment more and let you know if I find any problems.

During my unsuccessful attempts to locate a 46mm 2A filter, I came across this comparison where the Tiffen filter stands out in an unflattering way:

http://www.kenandchristine.com/Other/Equipment-Tests/Filter-Tests/1054387_ZLJFtM

I have a Tiffen Haze-1 filter on my 20mm. It is slightly stronger than ordinary UV filters but couldn't save this mosquito from looking like it had a dose of radioactive bug spray:

One could argue that they are not realistic real-world scenes.

In my test shot of a building backlit against the sky I didn't notice any such ghosting, but I will try to look for it more.

There's a B+W 2E filter available in 58mm for quite a lot of money ($120 or something like that), I don't know if it's worth spending so much or if it's really any better because I'm not sure that it's coated either.

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Tiffen filters

sigala1 wrote:

Ulric wrote:

sigala1 wrote:

photo perzon wrote:

which filter to use?

The only readily available filter in the United States is a Tiffen 52mm Haze 2A, and you can get a 46mm to 52mm step up ring.

Unfortunately, the Tiffen filters are uncoated (but otherwise, as far as I know, nothing wrong with them), but lack of coating will increase flare if you don't have a lens hood, and MIGHT cause ghosting around backlit subjects. I will have to experiment more and let you know if I find any problems.

During my unsuccessful attempts to locate a 46mm 2A filter, I came across this comparison where the Tiffen filter stands out in an unflattering way:

http://www.kenandchristine.com/Other/Equipment-Tests/Filter-Tests/1054387_ZLJFtM

I have a Tiffen Haze-1 filter on my 20mm. It is slightly stronger than ordinary UV filters but couldn't save this mosquito from looking like it had a dose of radioactive bug spray:

One could argue that they are not realistic real-world scenes.

In my test shot of a building backlit against the sky I didn't notice any such ghosting, but I will try to look for it more.

There's a B+W 2E filter available in 58mm for quite a lot of money ($120 or something like that), I don't know if it's worth spending so much or if it's really any better because I'm not sure that it's coated either.

Where did you find that? To my knowledge, B+W doesn't make a 2E. They make a 420, which is equivalent to 2A, and a 415, which is equivalent to 2B.

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