Thank you to my new friends here--and prolly farewell, too

Started Jul 5, 2013 | Discussions
Rick Knepper Forum Pro • Posts: 14,911
Absolute utter nonsense.
1

olyflyer wrote:

...it's the return policy. People buy stuff for fun and use the return policy to return before the time is over. Don't blame Nikon for this. That's why I never buy cameras from shops which allow that kind of behavior.

You are mixing up happenstances to start with. This is a refurb. The expectation that it has been used by another person should be a given.

Return policies help these retailers stay in business. Tell us. Who do you buy from that does not have a return policy because I want to make sure I never buy from them.

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Rick Knepper, photographer, non-professional, shooting for pleasure, check my profile for gear list and philosophy. TJ said, "Every generation needs a new revolution".

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OP Water Ouzel Forum Member • Posts: 52
Re: B&H was fantastic
1

narddogg81 wrote:

does the camera work, is it in good condition, and does it have the full factory warranty? if so, who cares? maybe they put it though a bunch of test fires at the factory. you are protected under the warranty, and i dont think ive ever met anyone who actually exceeded the shutter life of a dslr.

I am slowly coming to a more measured response to this. But I can't help having some fun with your observations. "A bunch of test fires" ?? 2743 of them? At some point it does become a question of magnitude. Kind of like, "My wife had a few boyfriends before we were married," vs "In her summer abroad, my wife slept with the Danish Army." Warranty or not. And you might want to do some reading about what warranty service seems means to Nikon these days. Cheers.

keithmatts Contributing Member • Posts: 790
Re: Thank you to my new friends here--and prolly farewell, too

JJ10 wrote:

Did you format the card you used in camera before you took your test shots? If not that could well be your problem.

Not so. Shutter release number is generated in the camera. Nothing on a memory card, whether reformatted or not, has anything to with it.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,985
Re: B&H was fantastic

if so, who cares?

As a wild guess, correctly or incorrectly, almost everybody on this forum  

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One day long ago, a sorcerer and a warrior did battle, as such things were commonplace in that age. Sometimes the sorcerer won, and the sum value of human abilities was improved some trifling amount. Sometimes the warrior won, and again the human race improved by some insignificant amount, for a sorcerer who can't defeat one miserable warrior is a poor sorcerer indeed.

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,678
Re: Thank you to my new friends here--and prolly farewell, too

When are you guys going to learn, and how many of these threads will be spun out to the ozone?  Buy local!

OP Water Ouzel Forum Member • Posts: 52
A more measured response

Thank you, all, for your contributions to my sense of perspective. My two previous Nikons were film cameras, starting with a used "F" in the late 60's. This D800e is a serious upgrade from my first digital camera, an X-E1, if you don't count the iPhone, and my time with a PDF of the manual this afternoon has been well spent.

As I have delved into the manual and the settings, it is clear that this camera was shipped to me from B&H, not only with that magnanimous shutter count, but with extensive deviations from default settings. New camera to me, it took some reading to learn why the damned camera would not autofocus on half-press--was it the lens? the camera?--because the A4 setting had been left to focus only on the AF-ON button. Lots of other examples, like continuous focus, color space, image quality and ISO were all non-default. The camera and packaging look absolutely mint, but someone had made significant use of it before B&H shipped to me as new. Probably some NSA contractor doing some counterfeiting or some friend of B&H on a fashion shoot. (Why would they need the old Adobe colorspace?)

The advice from "lickity split" (really?) was singularly productive. I paraphrase: congratulations, you have a loaner until Monday with return paid shipping. Great advice. What's 200 more activations on this camera? Answer: a delta of 7.3%   Almost nothing.

I am loving the images it produces, and am now of the mind to stay with Nikon. Either a D800 or a D800e. As I look at the noise with ISO 400 on this D800e, I'm going to need to rethink if the $500 difference with the "rebate" is worth it. Anyway, thinking to exchange this body for another Nikon.

So, again, thanks for the responses. I've got a coupla days to look at this more carefully.

Brad

OP Water Ouzel Forum Member • Posts: 52
Re: Absolute utter nonsense.

Rick Knepper wrote:

You are mixing up happenstances to start with. This is a refurb. The expectation that it has been used by another person should be a given.

Just to clarify. The subject of the top post, the D800e that B&H shipped to me today, was priced and sold NEW with the NEW USA warranty. Essentially, though, it is a refurb of some some ilk, but it was certainly bought and shipped as new.

vincent__l Regular Member • Posts: 336
Re: Absolute utter nonsense.
1

If I were you I would send email to B&H with your evidence of the high shutter count and your request for a refund or exchange ASAP. I would do this before going off on a free "loaner" shooting spree. Although B&H CS is great the last thing you want is for a misunderstanding that those high shutter counts were from you, violating the 200 shutter count limit on the return policy. That would be awkward.

Water Ouzel wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

You are mixing up happenstances to start with. This is a refurb. The expectation that it has been used by another person should be a given.

Just to clarify. The subject of the top post, the D800e that B&H shipped to me today, was priced and sold NEW with the NEW USA warranty. Essentially, though, it is a refurb of some some ilk, but it was certainly bought and shipped as new.

Robin Casady Forum Pro • Posts: 12,898
I have a theory... (not about the brontosaurus)

Water Ouzel wrote:

Thank you, all, for your contributions to my sense of perspective. My two previous Nikons were film cameras, starting with a used "F" in the late 60's. This D800e is a serious upgrade from my first digital camera, an X-E1, if you don't count the iPhone, and my time with a PDF of the manual this afternoon has been well spent.

As I have delved into the manual and the settings, it is clear that this camera was shipped to me from B&H, not only with that magnanimous shutter count, but with extensive deviations from default settings. New camera to me, it took some reading to learn why the damned camera would not autofocus on half-press--was it the lens? the camera?--because the A4 setting had been left to focus only on the AF-ON button. Lots of other examples, like continuous focus, color space, image quality and ISO were all non-default. The camera and packaging look absolutely mint, but someone had made significant use of it before B&H shipped to me as new. Probably some NSA contractor doing some counterfeiting or some friend of B&H on a fashion shoot. (Why would they need the old Adobe colorspace?)

Look at page 274 of the User Guide. Adobe RGB and sRGB are the two choices. Adobe RGB has the wider gamut and is the best choice for images you plan to process in Capture NX2, Lightroom 5, Photoshop, or other processing software. sRGB (I think the "s" is for "small" ) is only suitable it you do not plan to process the image. So, if you are using the D800E for shooting JPEG and going directly to the web, use sRGB, and then immediately get psychological counciling.

The AF-ON only setting, combined with AF-C, is popular on this forum. It gives you the best of both worlds without changing settings. If you want AF-S functionality press and release the AF-ON button. If you want AF-C functionality press and hold the AF-ON button. It makes focus and compose easier, and it gives you more control over focusing. The AF-ON button is conveniently placed for your thumb, so it is easy to use while shooting rapidly or when shooting slowly and carefully. You will find many threads about AF-ON only going back at least several years.

So, My Theory: I think you received a camera that was returned by a reader of this forum. They probably took all those shots testing the infamous Left AF Point in tungsten light at f/1.4, found it less than 100% perfect when examined on screen at 100%, and returned the camera.

I am loving the images it produces, and am now of the mind to stay with Nikon. Either a D800 or a D800e. As I look at the noise with ISO 400 on this D800e, I'm going to need to rethink if the $500 difference with the "rebate" is worth it. Anyway, thinking to exchange this body for another Nikon.

Noise is not the only reason to shoot at base ISO. The more you increase the ISO, the lower they dynamic range. This chart illustrates how DR drops as ISO goes up.

When looking at noise, you are probably viewing it at 100%. Remember that 100% for a D800E is like looking at an XE-1 at 150%.

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Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,193
Of course, if you say so...

Rick Knepper wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

...it's the return policy. People buy stuff for fun and use the return policy to return before the time is over. Don't blame Nikon for this. That's why I never buy cameras from shops which allow that kind of behavior.

You are mixing up happenstances to start with. This is a refurb. The expectation that it has been used by another person should be a given.

Refurb = second hand. Period. Refurb in reality means someone bought it, returned it and the shop checked and cleaned the camera, polished a bit so it looks good. Has NOTHING to do with Nikon, to blame Nikon for the fact that a returned camera has over 2k shuuet count is stupid. If you buy such camera you should not be surprised if it has over 2k shutter actuation in it.

Return policies help these retailers stay in business.

...well, you get what you deserve then. Second hand cameras. Never the less, as long as the buyer agree with the terms and is aware of the risks it is fine with me.

Tell us. Who do you buy from that does not have a return policy because I want to make sure I never buy from them.

I buy my gear in Sweden, where I live, so it is not likely you ever buy from "my" shop anyway, but here is the link to it:

http://www.scandinavianphoto.se/

Excellent service, knowledgeable people, no return policy unless the box is unopened and the gear is unused. They are doing just fine without you, one of the largest camera shop in Scandinavia.

JusLookN Veteran Member • Posts: 4,262
Re: I have a theory... (not about the brontosaurus)

Hi Walter.  Was this also a brand new card sent with the camera?  Someone asked about this earlier, but I haven't seen the answer.  Because someone mentioned that it doesn't matter.  That is not the case with some brands of cameras as they continue with the count of a previously used card that is set up the same way. (My Sony's for example.) If I make a mistake and put a card from my a700 into my 900, it picks up the count from the card that is in it. I'm hoping Nikon is different, but I make sure I don't switch the wrong cards between my D300 and D700 anyways!  I know you are going to return it and get another one.  I would stick with the D800 if you like the product it is producing!  Good luck!

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Glenn
I'm kinda partial to video, but I'm hangin!

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rgolub
rgolub Senior Member • Posts: 2,061
Re: Thank you to my new friends here--and prolly farewell, too

When are you going to learn that not everyone has a camera store in their immediate locale?

The closest real camera store to me is 550 miles away.  We don't all live in NYC.

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RG
www.lostrange.com

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,678
Re: Thank you to my new friends here--and prolly farewell, too

In your case, I might make an exception.  Or, much better yet, you could order from Pro Photo Supply here in Portland, Oregon and get your gear shipped, untouched since it left the factory, as I did, without paying a penny of sales tax, which of course is the real reason people order from B&H et al.

Or leave yourself open to the internet retailers and their shady practices.  I know where my money is going.

wireless
wireless Contributing Member • Posts: 503
Re: I have a theory... (not about the brontosaurus)

Robin Casady wrote:

[...]

The AF-ON only setting, combined with AF-C, is popular on this forum. It gives you the best of both worlds without changing settings. If you want AF-S functionality press and release the AF-ON button. If you want AF-C functionality press and hold the AF-ON button. It makes focus and compose easier, and it gives you more control over focusing. The AF-ON button is conveniently placed for your thumb, so it is easy to use while shooting rapidly or when shooting slowly and carefully. You will find many threads about AF-ON only going back at least several years.

Robin, thanks for explaining that in plain, ordinary English.

regards, David

 wireless's gear list:wireless's gear list
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orchidblooms
orchidblooms Senior Member • Posts: 1,261
Re: Thank you to my new friends here--and prolly farewell, too
1

Water Ouzel wrote:

Just opened my brand new D800e from B&H.

Took two pics in JPG.

Ran it through exiftool on my Mac and my jaw dropped:

Bradleys-MacBook:~obb$ exiftool /Users/obb/Pictures/shutter1.jpg | grep "Shutter"

Flash Shutter Speed : 1/60 s

Shutter Count : 2744 <--------------------------

Shutter Speed : 1/5

MY FIRST SHUTTER COUNT WAS TWO THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR

I did run exiftool on my second pic. Reports Shutter Count of 2745, so incremented by 1 as one would expect.

Is there something wrong with my methodology, or is there crap in River City?

With all I've seen on Nikon QA and customer support, I'm ready to return the whole package (Sigma 35mm lens) and re-lay the foundation on a 5D3, contrast, lower DR, and all. Mein Gott, the shining Exmor sensor on the altar, and absolute crap behind the curtain.

Or is my overexercise unfounded? I'm inclined to see more validity in exiftool than in Nikon just now.

Any moderating thoughts?

Thanks, Brad

you have a used unit - send it all back - and shop local...    support your local retailers...

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Phillip "Iggy" Murphy http://phillipmurphy.com
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OP Water Ouzel Forum Member • Posts: 52
Re: Thank you to my new friends here--and prolly farewell, too
1

orchidblooms wrote:

you have a used unit - send it all back - and shop local... support your local retailers...

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Phillip "Iggy" Murphy http://phillipmurphy.com
ILM Sandra Murphy - "The Orchid Lady" http://orchidblooms.com

1 - Yes I did have a used from from B&H.

2 - Done and done, thanks. Paid shipping label and RMA from B&H in hand. New D800e from Ace Photo in Ashburn, VA also in hand after helpful and lengthy conversation with NPS photographer Frank Lee Ruggles who works there. My first exposure was Shutter Count : 1. Lessons learned. Lessons continue.

Thanks, Brad

OP Water Ouzel Forum Member • Posts: 52
Re: I have a theory... (not about the brontosaurus)

wireless wrote:

Robin, thanks for explaining that in plain, ordinary English.

regards, David

+1 -- Brad

Per Baekgaard Senior Member • Posts: 1,258
Re: Of course, if you say so...

olyflyer wrote:

I buy my gear in Sweden, where I live, so it is not likely you ever buy from "my" shop anyway, but here is the link to it:

http://www.scandinavianphoto.se/

Excellent service, knowledgeable people, no return policy unless the box is unopened and the gear is unused. They are doing just fine without you, one of the largest camera shop in Scandinavia.

I have no grips with scandinavianphoto.se -- just using them as an example of EU legislation -- but I want to to point out that their return policy states this:

"Du har som privatperson rätt att ångra ditt köp. Denna ångerrätt gäller i 14 dagar från den dag då du har fått varan eller en väsentlig del av den. Varan skall returneras i väsentligen oförändrat skick."

It says "the goods shall be returned in substantially unchanged condition".

Now, here in a neighbouring EU country, the way this is legally interpreted is NOT that the box shall remain closed. On the contrary, the assumption is that the only way you can check out a product bought mail-order is by opening the box and checking it out, and then decide whether you want to return it or not.

So you're allowed to open the box and test it out, but not to take it into use. If a company would deem an open box to cause the value to deterioate and thus require it to remain unopened, it has to be specifically stated in a letter or email to you -- which does not seem to be the case. And even if they call this a right to regret ("ångerrätt"), you're not legally compelled to give a reason for returning an item.

Further, if a swedish company accepts shipping to here or market themselves here, they would normally be asked to comply with our legislation, which is based on the common EU guidelines. As scandinavianphoto also holds a .dk domain with a redirect, they would likely be ruled to market towards Denmark, and thus has to adhere to the Danish rules/interpretations of EU law as well.

If you look at the advice given by our consumer agency (like http://www.forbrug.dk/Artikler/Dine-rettigheder/Forbrugerguides/Fortrydelse/Varens-stand?tc=EB8CEB92DB91476892474BF40F2EB033) it actually mentions cameras as one item you're allowed to open and test out.

So taking 10-20 shots or something is probably OK, but likely not 500. And it is important that the goods can be brought back to "new" condition by the dealer again and can be re-sold as new. So in other words, you cannot return a camera that you would not yourself accept as "new" -- after some kind of "check-up" process at the dealer...

So, to sum up: Even if they may say differently if you call them, or if they insist on a re-stocking fee if you return an open box, they would likely loose such a case in court.

Now, this is true if the company sells to Denmark. I haven't checked details of the swedish legislation, though I would tend to think it could be quite similar to ours. But even if you would never be able to receive a "tested" camera that someone in Sweden had returned, a fellow Dane could have had his hands on it first, if you're unlucky

 Per Baekgaard's gear list:Per Baekgaard's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D500 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +17 more
olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,193
I know all that, and...

...since Sweden is a EU member, of course the EU laws are applied here as well. BTW, Swedish consumer protection is stronger than the EU protection AFAIK.

Per Baekgaard wrote:

But even if you would never be able to receive a "tested" camera that someone in Sweden had returned, a fellow Dane could have had his hands on it first, if you're unlucky

...which is why I am buying my stuff in the shop, not through the Internet. I don't need the "return policy" and they are not mixing the Internet shop with the items sold over the desk in the real shop. I have a very good, long term relation with them and not chasing the best price on the internet but the best service and long term relation. This gives me the best price also, but that usually goes hand in hand, loyalty is normally rewarded.

Anyway, because of all the hysteria around the D800, when I bough mine last September I wanted to take it home to test it with the same return policy they have for Internet buyers, but got it explained that that is only valid if you buy via the net (in which case, yes, you can get an already returned camera), but due to my history they agreed that I have the camera over the weekend, which was actually more than enough for me. The day after I already knew that there was nothing wrong with my camera.

So, they follow the rules and regulations, you can be sure of that, but they have the right to refuse taking back anything if you buy it over the desk. That kind of return policy ("öppet köp") is applied by most of the shops but at their own discretion and not on every item and also not regardless if the box is opened or not, that is up to them to decide.

Per Baekgaard Senior Member • Posts: 1,258
Re: I know all that, and...

olyflyer wrote:

...since Sweden is a EU member, of course the EU laws are applied here as well. BTW, Swedish consumer protection is stronger than the EU protection AFAIK.

Yep, and the same is true here.

So, they follow the rules and regulations, you can be sure of that, but they have the right to refuse taking back anything if you buy it over the desk. That kind of return policy ("öppet köp") is applied by most of the shops but at their own discretion and not on every item and also not regardless if the box is opened or not, that is up to them to decide.

Again, same rules here. The "default" rule of 14 days return policy only applies if you order through the net -- although you can arrange for a pick-up and still keep your return rights. Buying over the counter only gives you the policy they state when you buy; however many shops do offer a "reasonable" return policy that sometimes approaches that of the internet shops, in order to compete.

I deal the same way as you do, by the way -- I've bought most of my stuff at a well known dealer I've worked with for many years, photoshop.dk (that also has a brick-and-mortar store) and some at photografica.dk (more of a normal store in the heart of Copenhagen). Never had any problems with either and always had prompt reply and help on any issues that needed to be addressed with a product.

 Per Baekgaard's gear list:Per Baekgaard's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D500 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +17 more
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