70-200 2.8 IS II vs. 85 1.2 II for Portraits?

DPReview007 wrote:

Guys,

I use the 70-200 IS II for people shots, and am considering adding the 85 1.2 II to my stable. The question is, would it give me any additional benefits over the 70-200 2.8 for shallow DoF photography? Yes, it is two stops wider. But would that blur beat the 70-200’s at 200mm at 2.8?

In terms of light gathering capability, it lets in about 2 stops more light, of which the sensor can probably capture about 1 to 1 1/3 of a stop (read the article F-Stop Blues by DxO.) To counter that, the zoom has excellent IS, which is good for at least 2 stops, so I could probably shoot the same scene at a lower ISO with the zoom. (I shoot lots of parties in low light.)

The zoom is obviously more versatile, and I already own it. If the 85 1.2 II was like $400, I would just buy it. But it is unfortunately $2,000, so that makes me do some research before pulling the trigger. I’m obviously also considering the 85 1.8.

Sadly, both the 85 1.8 and the 85 1.2 II is rumored to be replaces “soon” (whatever that means.) At that point, both lens’ value will come down (which is no big deal for the $350 lens, a much bigger deal for the $2,000 lens.)

Is there any comparison on the web somewhere?

Thanks guys!

...I did a model shoot a couple weeks back, and did the whole thing with the Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro despite owning the 50 / 1.2L and 100 / 2.  My point is that a 70-200 / 2.8 would work well (it's just huge compared to a prime).

However, if you wanted the extra stop or two, then I'd suggest giving the Sigma 85 / 1.4 a hard look over the 85 / 1.2L II (half the price and only 1/3 of a stop slower), or the 85 / 1.8 or 100 / 2.

dprsok wrote:

The DOF for 200mm, F/2.8 at 10ft is about 1 inch.

For reference, we're talking about a frame height of 13.5 inches for such a framing -- in other words, a tight head shot.

It won't make any significant difference. Plus...with the 85mm, you will need to close the distance by more than half to get the same framing. Using the same focal length of 85mm, F1.2 only gets you 1/2 inch additional DOF over F/2.8.

The advantage of the faster lens is to get a shallow DOF with significantly wider framing, like a full body shot, as opposed to a tight head shot where you can't see much of the background, anyway.

For example, one probably wouldn't need, or want, f/1.2 for a framing like this:

But they might find it useful for a framing like this:

DPReview007 wrote:

Guys,

I use the 70-200 IS II for people shots, and am considering adding the 85 1.2 II to my stable. The question is, would it give me any additional benefits over the 70-200 2.8 for shallow DoF photography? Yes, it is two stops wider. But would that blur beat the 70-200’s at 200mm at 2.8?

In terms of light gathering capability, it lets in about 2 stops more light, of which the sensor can probably capture about 1 to 1 1/3 of a stop (read the article F-Stop Blues by DxO.) To counter that, the zoom has excellent IS, which is good for at least 2 stops, so I could probably shoot the same scene at a lower ISO with the zoom. (I shoot lots of parties in low light.)

The zoom is obviously more versatile, and I already own it. If the 85 1.2 II was like $400, I would just buy it. But it is unfortunately $2,000, so that makes me do some research before pulling the trigger. I’m obviously also considering the 85 1.8.

Sadly, both the 85 1.8 and the 85 1.2 II is rumored to be replaces “soon” (whatever that means.) At that point, both lens’ value will come down (which is no big deal for the $350 lens, a much bigger deal for the $2,000 lens.)

Is there any comparison on the web somewhere?

Thanks guys!

Why not consider the 50 1.2. At least you don't have that FL with your 70-200?

DPReview007 wrote:

Guys,

I use the 70-200 IS II for people shots, and am considering adding the 85 1.2 II to my stable. The question is, would it give me any additional benefits over the 70-200 2.8 for shallow DoF photography? Yes, it is two stops wider. But would that blur beat the 70-200’s at 200mm at 2.8?

In terms of light gathering capability, it lets in about 2 stops more light, of which the sensor can probably capture about 1 to 1 1/3 of a stop (read the article F-Stop Blues by DxO.) To counter that, the zoom has excellent IS, which is good for at least 2 stops, so I could probably shoot the same scene at a lower ISO with the zoom. (I shoot lots of parties in low light.)

The zoom is obviously more versatile, and I already own it. If the 85 1.2 II was like $400, I would just buy it. But it is unfortunately $2,000, so that makes me do some research before pulling the trigger. I’m obviously also considering the 85 1.8.

Sadly, both the 85 1.8 and the 85 1.2 II is rumored to be replaces “soon” (whatever that means.) At that point, both lens’ value will come down (which is no big deal for the $350 lens, a much bigger deal for the $2,000 lens.)

Is there any comparison on the web somewhere?

Thanks guys!

Are you shooting with crop or FF and for which format is all the advice predicated on?

Did I miss something here?

Bill

I wouldn't consider a 70-200 a replacement for the 85L. The blur at 200mm f2.8 might be pretty similar to the 85L two stops wider but the perspective is totally different. The,greater depth in the 85 image coupled with the blur makes all the difference & can be very addictive.

I don't think Canon's in any great hurry to replace the 85L so I'd say go ahead and buy it.
Brgds

Press Correspondent wrote:

DOF (the amount of blur) is the same: 2.8*85/200=1.19 with the same subject framing (different dustance).

That's the calculation for distant background blur, not depth of field.

Yes you get about the same background blur if you use the lenses wide open, but you get much less depth of field with the 85/1.2. This can be highly relevant to subject separation, because the hair can blur so much that it tends to blend into the background.

There's no "better" or "worse" here, they're just different. If you want the effect of a sharp head and shoulders against a blurred background, use the longer lens; if you want a sharp face fading into blurred ears/hair, use the shorter lens.

As ok55 pointed out, there is a huge difference in perspective which is equally important to composition.

Mevbo......  It's one thing to read about how good a lens is and another to actually see how good a lens is. Your images tell the story of the 85L in spades!!  Are all copies of the 85L this sharp wide open?  I am just blown away.

Besides how good a demonstration you did as to the capabilities of this lens let me add that the very last photo demonstrates your skill as a photographer/artist. A stunning portrait. Your technique of leaving the tree over-exposed along with the bright BG makes the subject pop and leap off the screen. That is in addition to the subject seperation via DoF.

Fantastic job and demo. Thank you for sharing.

Bill

DPReview007 wrote:

Fog Maker wrote:

If they however update it they will run into some serious pricing issues-

for a non super tele - where its now is the absolute limit

The price on the 5D III has dropped almost 500 Euro in a year

which should be a good indicator that Canon can't keep up this madness

Part of the reason why Canon and Nikon prices are both dropping is that the Yen lost 15% of its value this year. These companies account in Yen, and simply pass on a large chunk of the gains to customers to be competitive. We can look forward to more discounts on photo gear this year!

Pricing is a bit more complex than that. While the Yen may have lost 15% of its value (accepting your figure, I haven't checked it) that has both an upwards and downwards impact on prices. Upwards because Japanese companies have to import most of their raw materials and fuel. And possibly downward because of currency exchange value (depending on the currencies involved of course).

However the price you pay is not simply Canon's or Nikon's manufacturing cost. Once the goods arrive in the USA, or Europe or wherever, import duties are added and at that point all accounting is no longer in Yen but is converted to the local currency. To that base price is added the importer / distributor's margin for warehousing, distribution, marketing, training and service costs. Then to that is added the dealer's profit margin and finally, if applicable, sales tax.

Most photo manufacturers also buy forward as a hedge against currency fluctuations and in the case of Canon prices are fixed for at least 3 months in advance to provide some stability to the market.

It would be nice to think that a 15% drop in the value of the Yen would result in an equivalent drop in prices but sadly it doesn't and realistically we should not expect to look forward to  discounts due to that reason.