* Canon 70d * its here!

Started Jun 27, 2013 | Discussions
Karl Gnter Wnsch Forum Pro • Posts: 11,408
Re: Plenty of motivation to wait and read.
1

needmoretoys wrote:

10 to 18 is nearly a doubling. 10 to 20 is a doubling.

Nope. 10 to 40 would be doubling!

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Abhijith Kannankavil New Member • Posts: 2
Re: * Canon 70d * its here!
1

With this camera getting on sale, it'd almost be priced exactly over what the current 7D sells.

And, looking at the specs of this one, i think, the 7D mark II would have to be a lot lot better,.. like a mini 1Dx. Only features to differentiate will be build quality, weather sealing, AF, AFMA. So, let's expect the next 7D to cost a lot more and to be completely aimed for professionals.

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buellom Contributing Member • Posts: 580
Re: sensor?
1

I'm not waiting for a APS-C camera but I'm highly interested in how the sensor performs. Canon has finally to catch up. If the sensor performs on the level of the 24 MP sensors in the Nikons I'm fine, because there will be a FF camera in the near future (2014 hopefully) that performs as well as the Nikons. It's espacially the usable dynamic range that makes the Nikon offerings so compelling. The deficit of Canon in the sensor department hold back further investments in lenses on my part. Canon, do you listen? I won't buy new lenses until you got your sensors right!

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,590
Re: * Canon 70d * its here!
5

jrkliny wrote:

Sure DR and low noise at high ISO are important. Canon has fallen behind in these also. We don't know if the new sensor will be any better or even worse for these parameters.

I am not concerned about a 10 or 15% bump in mp. I was hoping Canon would at least catch up with the 24 mp sensor. That would have been a jump of 30%.

Maybe some buyers will like the WiFi and touchscreen, but I really would like to see Canon move towards improved sensor performance. Better resolution has lots of positive effects. First the obvious, it permits larger prints and/or more cropping. Next the quality of smaller prints is also improved. Colors are less splotchy and sharpening is all but eliminated. If you don't understand, then talk with some friends who have a 800e and do landscape photography.

If you don't print and want to post your pictures to facebook, maybe the 70D will be a great camera for you. Or you could just use a cellphone.

I love the little sarcastic digs this guy slips in at the end of his posts: "If you don't print and want to post your pictures to facebook, maybe the 70D will be a great camera for you. Or you could just use a cellphone."

Look out for them, most of his posts have one.

elfroggio
MOD elfroggio Senior Member • Posts: 2,954
Re: Plenty of motivation to wait and read.
2

jrkliny wrote:

It depends the uses of your photography and whether image quality is important for you.

Image quality is "so overrated"!

I was looking at Diane Arbus photos from a few of her books at the downtown library. Then I got struck by:

  1. Almost all photos are poorly exposed. Too dark, too light
  2. All the flash photos were from the camera straight on, no ring flash...
  3. Almost all subjects are dead center
  4. Almost all photos are badly developped

And you know what? Almost all these photos were still amazing and it was not from the quality of the image but from the content. Strong, emotional, real page-turners.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,590
Re: DEE- Lighted !!!
1

jrkliny wrote:

jonrobertp wrote:

With native iso of 12,800....All cross sensors....7 fps...HDR, .... and all the specs....JUST what the doctor ordered !!

Summer is looking very bright !! And couple it with the new Sigma 18-35 1.8 ...low light Killer !! then add the fine 70 200 F4...which is cheap these days....Glad I unloaded my D7K just in time .

A claim of 12,800 ISO does not mean the sensor performs well at high ISO.

Cross sensors do not necessarily mean that the camera AF will work well. I have a T3i (actually two of them). I use the center cross focus point and it works really poorly compared with my old XSi. The T3i hunts under low light conditions and anytime I try closeups or macros.

I cannot imagine using in-camera HDR. On rare occasions I use bracketing and Photomatix HDR software. It takes a lot of skill to get a natural acceptable result.

I guess 7 fps meets the needs for sport or some wildlife photography. I have never done much spray and pray shooting.

Sarcastic dig #2

"I have never done much spray and pray shooting."

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,590
Re: Plenty of motivation to wait and read.
5

jrkliny wrote:

Eric,

It depends the uses of your photography and whether image quality is important for you. More and more photography is limited to posting online. The typical online image uses less than the equivalent of 0.3 mp. For many photographers, even the current cellphones provide way more resolution than is needed.

If you print or crop, then resolution becomes more important. Even then it depends on the types of images you print. Typically a portrait does not need to be high resolution. In fact high res could be a disadvantage and will emphasize skin pores and flaws. High res becomes important if you are shoot landscapes or other images where detail is important.

I suppose fewer and fewer of us are interested in improved image quality. That is why Canon can sell WiFi and touchscreens and video performance instead of IQ improvements.

Anyway, you will clearly see an improvement in IQ when moving from 10 to 20 mp. Don't expect to be able to print twice as large. You need 4x the increase in order to do that.

Sarcastic dig #3

"I suppose fewer and fewer of us are interested in improved image quality. That is why Canon can sell WiFi and touchscreens and video performance instead of IQ improvements."

jrkliny
jrkliny Veteran Member • Posts: 3,775
Re: * Canon 70d * its here!
1

meland wrote:

jrkliny wrote:

Sure DR and low noise at high ISO are important. Canon has fallen behind in these also. We don't know if the new sensor will be any better or even worse for these parameters.

I am not concerned about a 10 or 15% bump in mp. I was hoping Canon would at least catch up with the 24 mp sensor. That would have been a jump of 30%.

Maybe some buyers will like the WiFi and touchscreen, but I really would like to see Canon move towards improved sensor performance. Better resolution has lots of positive effects. First the obvious, it permits larger prints and/or more cropping. Next the quality of smaller prints is also improved. Colors are less splotchy and sharpening is all but eliminated. If you don't understand, then talk with some friends who have a 800e and do landscape photography.

If you don't print and want to post your pictures to facebook, maybe the 70D will be a great camera for you. Or you could just use a cellphone.

I love the little sarcastic digs this guy slips in at the end of his posts: "If you don't print and want to post your pictures to facebook, maybe the 70D will be a great camera for you. Or you could just use a cellphone."

Look out for them, most of his posts have one.

I don't know why you think this is a "dig".  The vast majority of people don't print or when they print it is only 8x10 or smaller.  A cellphone will handle that resolution adequately.   Also with the 70D, Canon seems to be concerned with matching cellphone technology such as WiFi and a touchscreen.  I suspect they are more concerned about cellphones than about trying to compete with sensor technology.

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VankoVn Forum Member • Posts: 55
Re: * Canon 70d * its here!
6

The camera isn't even announced yet and you already complain about the sensor

asad137 Contributing Member • Posts: 693
Re: No Micro-adjustment?

AOKH wrote:

Didn't see any reference to MA on the box.

There's no mention of MA on a 7D box either! I'd wager that AFMA is considered a 'minor' enough feature for the majority of users (not DPR tech-heads) to warrant not having a prominent place in marketing materials.

EJ Fudd Senior Member • Posts: 1,455
ANYONE think this was a box design from the possible release in Feb??

The image was not released from canon but a rumor site.

Canon was rumored to release the camera in the begining if the year but possible was pulled due to the Nikon D7100, could this be a box from then? maybe we will see more or a 24MP sensor

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dave vichich
dave vichich Senior Member • Posts: 2,508
Re: Plenty of motivation to wait and read.
2

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

dave vichich wrote:

You and I should go take some bear pics together. Then we'll see how you feel about cropping.

It's actions like yours that give photographers a bad reputation - because it's people like you who get killed because of lack of knowledge.

I agree with you totally. It's like when someone tells me how I set a bad example

By looking at my photo, you have determended that I'm  not able to figure out that bears are dangerous.

I guess what you don't see is that I'm shooting uphill. As many rangers have said that bears don't move as well downhill, there's a plus 1 for the photographer. The other thing that you don't realize is the fact that I have my car between the bears and I, and that my car door is open for me to get into. I'll call that a plus 2.

If you feel knowledge is so important, you mayby shouldn't jump to conclusions.

Actions like these are a case of: Know about your subject and the danger becomes managable. I have seen enough adverts for bear photographer trips - and there the photographers can even mingle with the bears with no danger, because they informed themselves when and where to go.

See above.

In your shoot: If you happen to startle the bear and she has small cubs - for how long can you run at 40 kph? I'd bet not as long as the bear.

once again see above.

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regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

I see a lot of posts talking about its only a two mp increase so its unimportant.

Do people realize that all the little steps will at some point be a equal to one very large one?

Quit being so short sighted.

davev

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jrkliny
jrkliny Veteran Member • Posts: 3,775
Re: No Micro-adjustment?
1

asad137 wrote:

AOKH wrote:

Didn't see any reference to MA on the box.

There's no mention of MA on a 7D box either! I'd wager that AFMA is considered a 'minor' enough feature for the majority of users (not DPR tech-heads) to warrant not having a prominent place in marketing materials.

I will wager you are wrong.  Canon is stretching to reach the 7100 and would certainly mention something like MA.

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buellom Contributing Member • Posts: 580
Re: ANYONE think this was a box design from the possible release in Feb??
1

I'm pretty sure that these are the final specs.

From a marketing point of view 20MP is bit low when even the Nikon entry level camera has 24MP.

From the IQ point of view 20 MP should be more than enough for most uses. Combined with kit lenses there won't be any visible difference between 20 and 24 MP anyway.

The core question is dynamic range which is compromised with Canon sensor by read noise at low iso and banding. When Canon has resolved this issue, the missing 4 MP won't be of any IQ problem (only a marketing one maybe).

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,884
Re: @tecnoworld - no, Canon makes its OWN SENSOR. Only company with full vertical integration
3

007peter wrote:

tecnoworld wrote:

Is the sensor self-developed or outsourced?

The only 20mpixel aps-c sensor on the market, up to now, is the one from samsung. If canon uses it, then it's very good, quite better than the older canon 18mpixel one in every aspect.

No, canon only use their own sensor in their DSLR.

This is not historically true. The EOS-1D had a Panasonic sensor. And Canon can change their sensor sourcing policy any time they choose.

Unlike other camera makes, canon own several CMOS manufacturing plant.

It has one plant with two fab lines.

That is who canon was able to make the 1st FF dSLR 4 years ahead of competition.

In fact they didn't. The first FF DSLR was the Contax ND. The first FF CMOS sensored DSLR was the Kodak DCS-14n.

Canon also never sell their CMOS sensor to other manufactures.

This is true, but we don't know whether that is because they have not tried or because they had no takers.

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,884
Re: * Canon 70d * its here!
2

Abhijith Kannankavil wrote:

With this camera getting on sale, it'd almost be priced exactly over what the current 7D sells.

And, looking at the specs of this one, i think, the 7D mark II would have to be a lot lot better,.. like a mini 1Dx. Only features to differentiate will be build quality, weather sealing, AF, AFMA. So, let's expect the next 7D to cost a lot more and to be completely aimed for professionals.

I doubt there is such a market. The major market for these fast APS-C cameras is keen amateurs who do cation photography and don't have the resources to shell out for the long-focus lenses they'd need with FF. I think that the 70D looks to be a killer camera for those people - hard to see how they'd justify many people spending a lot more. This makes me think that there will not be a 7D Mk II. In effect, the 6D has taken its price slot, even if it is a differently orientated camera.

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Bob

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,853
ON THE BOX?!
1

jrkliny wrote:

asad137 wrote:

AOKH wrote:

Didn't see any reference to MA on the box.

There's no mention of MA on a 7D box either! I'd wager that AFMA is considered a 'minor' enough feature for the majority of users (not DPR tech-heads) to warrant not having a prominent place in marketing materials.

I will wager you are wrong.  Canon is stretching to reach the 7100 and would certainly mention something like MA.

ON THE BOX?!  Mention MFA right on the box?  They never have.  They never will.  They can't put EVERY feature on the front of the box.

jonrobertp Forum Pro • Posts: 12,875
vs Nikon
1

meland wrote:

jrkliny wrote:

jonrobertp wrote:

With native iso of 12,800....All cross sensors....7 fps...HDR, .... and all the specs....JUST what the doctor ordered !!

Summer is looking very bright !! And couple it with the new Sigma 18-35 1.8 ...low light Killer !! then add the fine 70 200 F4...which is cheap these days....Glad I unloaded my D7K just in time .

A claim of 12,800 ISO does not mean the sensor performs well at high ISO.

Cross sensors do not necessarily mean that the camera AF will work well. I have a T3i (actually two of them). I use the center cross focus point and it works really poorly compared with my old XSi. The T3i hunts under low light conditions and anytime I try closeups or macros.

I cannot imagine using in-camera HDR. On rare occasions I use bracketing and Photomatix HDR software. It takes a lot of skill to get a natural acceptable result.

I guess 7 fps meets the needs for sport or some wildlife photography. I have never done much spray and pray shooting.

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Sarcastic dig #2

"I have never done much spray and pray shooting."

Sarcastic and then some.  And a T3i ?   I'l restrain my chuckle.    And using only the centre AF point ?  Then why are the Nikon boys so happy with 51 AF points ?   Really....

Only use the centre point ?   Sheesh, why not then go back 5 or 6 yrs and use a unit that doesn't have the latest af senor array.  You don't need it.  Me...I too use mostly the centre, but at times I really wanted a cross sensor at the side.  Also, Nik doesn't let u use any groupings other than one or all points.  (the other groupings are ONLY assist, not AF by normal standards).  That's where this Can af system is superior.

I have the new Nik sensor.  Sure it's good.  Not great.  Toshiba unit.  But at 6400 and above, no improvement over the one in the older D7k.  And, having tested the D7100 AF myself, there is no significant improvement in low light acquisition or in side sensor only use over the AF in the D7k.  Not that they are terrible, but, like the 7D complaints, good, but not to rave about.

As to DR....well it is good in the Niks...but how much do U believe DXO ?   Critics say it's biased for Nik and against Can.  Is it ?   Your choice as to what you believe.  Me...I'd not dismiss it completely but take it w a grain of salt.

So I'l keep my 24 meg Nik body...have some good lenses for it....and this new 70D...hey, maybe it will even have a better buffer...and that would be handy.

Oh, and another thing For Can.   The flash can be set completely separately from the body...not like Nik, where it overrides your input (unless you go 100% manual ).  So, each has plus/negs.  Tis why I use both .  And Sony RX100 for my pocket.  lol....

Have a great day, guys.

Jon

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,853
Re: Let the whinefest begin! :-)
2

Jerry-astro wrote:

jrkliny wrote:

2 mp in four years seems like a joke.

Instead of improving the resolution, Canon seems to have decided that the public wants cellphone features like WiFi and a touchscreen. Some cellphones even have builtin HDR processing.

No, I think the incessant whining is more the joke here.  I'm not sure what Canon could do in the way of specs to make you really happy.  Is the extra MP that important to you vs. the possibility (emphasize possibility) of improved IQ?  No guarantees that will be the case, yet you seem to want to judge this before the camera is even announced.

You really should consider giving Nikon a try and see for yourself whether the grass truly is greener over there.  Let that forum listen to the whining for a while.

Jerry, I have to agree.  Canon was 2MP ahead of Nikon for almost four years and yet people say things like Canon is "finally" catching up.  So a few months after Canon finally got ahead of Canon they are being hailed as the saviour of those hungering for additional resolution/image quality.  THEN when Canon is RUMORED to be releasing a new sensor (although it does look legit) they are not worthy of any acknowledgement that the new sensor might have something to offer other than 2.2 extra megapixels over their 18MP sensor.  Nevermind there is a good chance, if the claims are true, that there will finally be a very well implimented version of their on-chip PDAF.  It also sounds like the 70D will have a 7D type AF system, which I don't think the XXD croud would even know how to handle.  No offense guys, I was thrown for a loop when going from my 30D to the 7D AF system because spot AF requires forethought (requires a LOT of contrast in a small space) and the large array of new AF features/controls is hard to adjust to.  Seriously, this isn't a personal shot....it is not a nice, easy learning curve.

I also think having an articulating screen is a nice feature of the XXD line and a good touch screen and wifi are nice to have to although not necessarily a must.  I think I would make use of them at least occasionally, and especially a phone app tapping into my camera's wifi for control and instant download and preview would be awesome.

Canon came out way ahead with the 7D four years ago and suddenly using that advantage to give them some time to do some R&D makes them incompetent and beyond foregiveness.  I wish people around here didn't expect miracles and also didn't see someone like Nikon releasing a sensor a little earlier (in the grand scheme of things, the product cycle isn't going to be exact but a few months or a year is shockingly close...Nikon waited three) as the only history worth remembering.

NancyP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,208
Re: ANYONE think this was a box design from the possible release in Feb??
1

This could be a draft of a brochure, not yet finalized. Bottom line, anticipation is fun, but don't take it as gospel until the item is shipped to dealers.

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