Win8 vs Win7

Started Jun 10, 2013 | Discussions
VirtualMirage
VirtualMirage Veteran Member • Posts: 3,922
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

theswede wrote:

Fair enough.

Evidently it does. Windows 8 is the worst failure Microsoft has had since Bob. And for good reason.

Jesper

Poor Bob, never got much love.  And here I would say that Windows ME was one of Microsoft's worst failures.  Talk about an unstable, temperamental POS.  I did finally manage to get it working in a fairly stable fashion (as far as ME can be called stable), but it was a crap shoot and it took a lot of work to get there.

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Paul

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kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,142
Re: Win8 vs Win7
2

walkaround wrote:

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

So what's the point of switching? Boot-up is a second or two faster?

No, bootup is minutes faster on some systems. Shutdown is similarly improved. My Lenovo laptop with hard drive acts like it is an "instant on" flash drive pc.

If you got a PC that takes minutes to boot up, you got other problems.  And a computer from the 20th century.   Of course, just enabling hibernation mode and using it would get you the same gain.

My machine spends as much time in POST as it does booting up.  A couple more seconds isn't going to change my life one bit.  (I'd get a lot more from a motherboard change then an OS change)

kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,142
Re: One of the funniest reads for me in a while
1

Boomanbb wrote:

I work in IT for a large law firm and had to endure this very same argument from all of the established attorneys... with going from Office 2003 to Office 2010. They were all perfectly happy with Office 2003 and saw all of the changes in 2010 as steps backwards, designed to confuse users and basically make them non productive. Of course all of the new attorneys had been using Office 2010 for two years in college so they were chomping at the bit to be upgraded.

in other words, none of the lawyers wanted to switch from the version they were accustomed to and productive with.   Not the ones making your firm money, and not the new hires.   Both saw change as unproductive and unnecessary.

Now 15 years ago, you might argue that word processors and spreadsheet software was still evolving, but let's be honest, these are very mature applications. What new functionality are they really adding these days?  For the vast majority of users, nothing.  They're using the same features that were finished in the 90s and now we're just moving the icons around.

The legal world hung onto text mode wordperfect 5.1 for a very long time because for those experienced with it, it did all they needed and very quickly.  For fast typists, the windows gui was a big step back in productivity.

Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,600
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
2

theswede wrote:

No cues is the key to my argument.

IMHO "no cues" is an argument that the UI is harder to learn or that it presents a barrier to upgraders.   But there's a difference between that and whether it's a usable interface or not.

We all have to learn the interfaces we use - even the ones we're familiar with had to be learned at some point.   For example, the classic Windows GUI makes heavy use of mouse right-clicks - yet there are no visual cues as to what's right-clickable and what isn't.  We just "figure it out" (i.e., learn it) as we use each new piece of software.

Touch UIs have similar, non-obvious gestures which frustrate a mouse user - but the touch UI is a new paradigm and "figuring out" things like swiping from the edges, long touches, or touching corners is something that comes with the territory.

If the UI provides easy ways to do the things you need to do most often, then it's usable.   It may not be particularly obvious to learn, but that's a somewhat different issue, IMHO.

VirtualMirage
VirtualMirage Veteran Member • Posts: 3,922
Re: One of the funniest reads for me in a while

kelpdiver wrote:

in other words, none of the lawyers wanted to switch from the version they were accustomed to and productive with. Not the ones making your firm money, and not the new hires. Both saw change as unproductive and unnecessary.

Now 15 years ago, you might argue that word processors and spreadsheet software was still evolving, but let's be honest, these are very mature applications. What new functionality are they really adding these days? For the vast majority of users, nothing. They're using the same features that were finished in the 90s and now we're just moving the icons around.

The biggest addition to functionality that the new Office versions offered was better SharePoint integration, XML document standardization becoming the default file type, and improved collaboration capabilities for documents, spreadsheets, and Outlook.  This really didn't start to take shape until Office 2007 and improved upon in 2010.

For home use, those features don't matter so much.

The legal world hung onto text mode wordperfect 5.1 for a very long time because for those experienced with it, it did all they needed and very quickly. For fast typists, the windows gui was a big step back in productivity.

I think the last time I used WordPerfect was around 1997/1998 (used at a title agency that worked next door to a law firm).  It was great for the time and had superior features over Office, mainly the reveal codes and macros.

Later Microsoft came around and began offering improved versions of their Office that trumped WordPerfect, especially when used in a Windows environment.  WordPerfect was great in DOS, but not as good at first in Windows.  But by the time this happened, it was too late for WordPerfect.  The product changing hands a few times via buyouts and acquisitions didn't help the product either.

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Paul

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theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

Sean Nelson wrote:

theswede wrote:

No cues is the key to my argument.

IMHO "no cues" is an argument that the UI is harder to learn or that it presents a barrier to upgraders.

And that it's harder to use intermittently. If I leave such a system for a few weeks and come back I will have a high cognitive load because the UI does not help me remember.

But there's a difference between that and whether it's a usable interface or not.

To those who immerse in it there is a difference. For example, a bash shell provides no cues and is very hard to learn. For me that is no obstacle, because I have learned it and use it nearly every day. When I have been away from it for a while I have a slight curve to get "back in the game", but since I've used it for decades I quickly feel familiar again.

That doesn't mean I would in any way consider bash a friendly UI suitable for everyday use by casual users who are interested in email and browsing and a few applications. Will it work for that? Eminently well! Will it be fast and easy to use once learned? Definitely. Is the learning period worth it for most users`Absolutely not.

The same goes, to a less extreme degree but for the same reasons, for Windows 8. It lacks cues which help casual users and those who intermittently use it, and that disqualifies it from serious consideration as a UI for the majority of users out there.

We all have to learn the interfaces we use - even the ones we're familiar with had to be learned at some point. For example, the classic Windows GUI makes heavy use of mouse right-clicks - yet there are no visual cues as to what's right-clickable and what isn't. We just "figure it out" (i.e., learn it) as we use each new piece of software.

My mother has never learned right click. Yet she has no issues using Windows and Linux for surfing, email and managing the occasional photo.

And this is key. The advanced concepts in previous UI's were for advanced use. You had to learn to become an administrator, or to solve problems in the OS, or to make changes. You never had to learn to do basic tasks.

In Windows 8 you can't even switch to another application from a Metro application without using what in previous versions of Windows was reserved for advanced use, and unknown to a huge chunk of users.

That is the disconnect. The key to the resistance against Windows 8. And of course power users who immerse themselves in the UI do not agree. Your arguments show that to you the issue doesn't even exist. But to most people it does. Including me, despite me having forgotten more UI's than most people know exist.

Touch UIs have similar, non-obvious gestures which frustrate a mouse user - but the touch UI is a new paradigm and "figuring out" things like swiping from the edges, long touches, or touching corners is something that comes with the territory.

No, it isn't. Real world analogs come with the territory. Touching corners most certainly does not. That's about as unintuitive as it gets. It's difficult enough to make people understand how the Kindle app works, with different "hot spots" on the page. Building a UI on that is *insane*.

If the UI provides easy ways to do the things you need to do most often, then it's usable. It may not be particularly obvious to learn, but that's a somewhat different issue, IMHO.

If the UI provides obvious and cued ways to do the things you need to most often, then it's usable. It doesn't much matter how easy or hard they are as long as they are obvious. Power users will adapt to anything - just like I use bash for many tasks people would think me crazy for using it for - but that is no good metric of usability. It's a metric of power. And power is useless if it's hidden to the user.

Jesper

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Russell Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 12,414
Re: Win8 vs Win7
1

raymb wrote:

Not withstanding the much maligned metro interface on Win8, which can be replaced with third party software. Are there any benefits in Win8 as an operating system that would make the switch worthwhile?.

4Kn Advanced Format for large disks would be a big OS feature. If you are running Win7 Home versus Pro, you get the missing storage modes that let you create raid 1 and above storage without having to move to the Pro level in Win 8. You can also mount ISO and VHD without resorting to third party tools. Native USB 3.0 drivers instead of third party. 16 Bit support for apps is a lot better and software that wouldn't load on 7 will on 8. There is the reinstall feature to all you to reinstall the OS without affecting the user files which running Windows over the years has always been an issue. Win 7 is better at this with the system imagining, but you still aren't completely covered.  Power management is supposed to be better, as not using as much power to run the system, but I don't have any proof of that.

The file backup tool that does versioning is probably also a feature to mention but that is getting away from the OS and more towards the user space.

I'll upgrade at some point as I upgrade my hard drives in my current system. At some point I'll put in a couple of 4T drives and drop the 1.5T drives I have now. I installed the beta of Win8 a while back  and I can live with the differences and who knows, by the time I upgrade out of Win7, the whole user interface on Win8 may have changed again.

Thank you
Russell

skyglider Veteran Member • Posts: 4,550
Before this humongous thread maxes out
2

Microsoft should have just left the desktop's previous Start Menu in the release version of Win8 and given the user the option to boot directly into the desktop and disable active corners.  If Win8's UI is that good, users would naturally migrate to it.

Nuff said, end of discussion.
Sky

dradam Senior Member • Posts: 2,814
Re: Before this humongous thread maxes out
2

skyglider wrote:

Microsoft should have just left the desktop's previous Start Menu in the release version of Win8 and given the user the option to boot directly into the desktop and disable active corners. If Win8's UI is that good, users would naturally migrate to it.

Nuff said, end of discussion.
Sky

Kinda like how everyone stuck with IE6 for so long over 8/9/10, because the new ones didn't offer any sort of advantages to justify a FREE upgrade.

theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: Before this humongous thread maxes out
3

dradam wrote:

skyglider wrote:

Microsoft should have just left the desktop's previous Start Menu in the release version of Win8 and given the user the option to boot directly into the desktop and disable active corners. If Win8's UI is that good, users would naturally migrate to it.

Nuff said, end of discussion.
Sky

Kinda like how everyone stuck with IE6 for so long over 8/9/10, because the new ones didn't offer any sort of advantages to justify a FREE upgrade.

New IE required an active download and install and broke many sites for many years. IE6 is still in heavy use inside corporation intranets where rewriting the business applications to work with anything else is a pure cost providing no benefit.

Providing an option to turn Metro off - leaving the present state as default and only *allowing* it is turned off, by active choice - is in a completely different league. If Metro is so wonderful hardly anyone would switch it off.

And if it isn't so wonderful, what's the point of having it at all?

Jesper

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kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,142
Re: One of the funniest reads for me in a while
1

VirtualMirage wrote:

The biggest addition to functionality that the new Office versions offered was better SharePoint integration, XML document standardization becoming the default file type, and improved collaboration capabilities for documents, spreadsheets, and Outlook. This really didn't start to take shape until Office 2007 and improved upon in 2010.

True, the sharing functionality got better.  Didn't require a revamp of the UI to support this, however.

Frankly, I would prefer to avoid such a strong vendor tie in as well...much happier with google docs for this purpose.  But if you're totally in bed with MS, it's a valid reason to upgrade in the office.

Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,600
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

theswede wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

theswede wrote:

No cues is the key to my argument.

IMHO "no cues" is an argument that the UI is harder to learn or that it presents a barrier to upgraders.  But there's a difference between that and whether it's a usable interface or not.

No, it isn't. Real world analogs come with the territory. Touching corners most certainly does not. That's about as unintuitive as it gets.

With all due respect, I think you've been using GUI interfaces for so long that you've forgotten that they have their unintuitive aspects, too.   It's all about the environment you get used to.   Once you're learned it, what appears as problematic to an unversed user can be very easy to use.

Your point about command line interfaces is a case in point.   My command shell of choice is PowerShell - there are a lot of things that it makes easy to do which would be hell in the GUI.   The learning curve is steep, but it is a very usable tool.

I would say the same about Adobe Premier Pro.   Hell of a learning curve, but once you've put the effort in and understand its paradigm, very powerful and pleasant to use because of what it can do for you.

I see the touch interface in much the same light.

That doesn't mean I think a touch interface is a good tool for all jobs, and it doesn't mean I don't have criticisms about the Metro interface.   And I think Microsoft is incredibly stupid to dump uninitiated desktop users (people who run hardware without a touch screen) unceremoniously into the Metro start screen.

But as far as whether gestures like swiping from the side and long presses are bad or "intuitive" or not, I recognize that these are de rigeur in an environment optimized for a small screen where you can't afford to have the same number of on-screen cues as on a large desktop monitor.

Boomanbb
Boomanbb Senior Member • Posts: 2,059
Re: One of the funniest reads for me in a while
1

Its cool to avoid the big vendors if you are a one man shop but firms (1000+ lawyers) would melt down and fail without 24/7 support from the vendor. We have people we can call at anytime from Microsoft, Adobe, Workshare, Dell, Lenovo, etc. No way can you tell a lawyer that you can't solve his or her problem right now, especially partners. They own the firm and pay your check. Big companies also get very sweet deals on the kind of software many people on these forums are always complaining about how much they cost. When you are buying 2000 or more licenses for something it is very cost effective.

Ben

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theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

With all due respect, I think you've been using GUI interfaces for so long that you've forgotten that they have their unintuitive aspects, too. It's all about the environment you get used to. Once you're learned it, what appears as problematic to an unversed user can be very easy to use.

As I said, a power user will adapt to anything. That has zero relevance to whether it is a UI good for a mainstream OS or not. And of course there are unintuitive aspects to every UI - that is why a UI has cues for basic tasks, helping our cognitive ability along.

Your point about command line interfaces is a case in point. My command shell of choice is PowerShell - there are a lot of things that it makes easy to do which would be hell in the GUI. The learning curve is steep, but it is a very usable tool.

That defines "usable" to be uninteresting for measuring whether a UI is a good fit for a mainstream OS. What Powershell is is powerful. It trades ease of use (what most people want) for power (what you want) When I sit down by it I do not find it usable. Nor would anyone who's main purpose with a system is to surf, check email and start applications. For such a user Powershell is not in the least usable.

I would say the same about Adobe Premier Pro. Hell of a learning curve, but once you've put the effort in and understand its paradigm, very powerful and pleasant to use because of what it can do for you.

Which support my point and goes directly against yours; for specialized tasks an advanced interface is a good thing. But it has a learning curve, which is precisely what you do not want for BASIC tasks.

I see the touch interface in much the same light.

That makes you very unique. The vast majority of humans on the planet see a touch interface (i.e. a phone or tablet) as something which should be as easy to use as possible. It doesn't have to be powerful (like a Powershell) or advanced (like Adobe Premiere) because that is not what a touch device is used for.

If you're going to perform batch administration tasks or edit video professionally you're not going to use a touch device, so why would you want it to trade ease of use for power like those tools do?

But as far as whether gestures like swiping from the side and long presses are bad or "intuitive" or not, I recognize that these are de rigeur in an environment optimized for a small screen where you can't afford to have the same number of on-screen cues as on a large desktop monitor.

I never mentioned swipes from the side or long presses. Those are OK for advanced tasks. Hot corners are not OK for anything. And none of this is OK for basic tasks.

Just because an interface is worth learning for power users and professionals and hands them power does not make it a good UI for everyday users. There is a trade off between power and ease of use, and any time that trade off is made in the direction of power there has to be a good justification for it. Metro has none, especially since it is so clumsily designed it adds very little power and loses a lot of ease of use.

Metro will be nothing but a memory in ten years. it is an abject failure. That is not my opinion but usage numbers talking.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/may/10/windows-8-actual-installed-base-58m

Jesper

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,600
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...

theswede wrote:

I see the touch interface in much the same light.

That makes you very unique. The vast majority of humans on the planet see a touch interface (i.e. a phone or tablet) as something which should be as easy to use as possible.

I think you have the wrong impression of what I mean by "usable" in the context of my comments.   By "usable" mean that you can get your work done with a minimum of effort.   You don't need to do excessive clicking, swiping, dragging, or keystrokes.   That doesn't require an "obvious" interface, just one you've learned.   And any interface has to be learned.

Your main objection seems to be that you've already learned the interfaces you know and you don't want to be bothered learning or having to know how to use a new one.   That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold, but that by itself doesn't make the new interface a bad one.

theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

I think you have the wrong impression of what I mean by "usable" in the context of my comments. By "usable" mean that you can get your work done with a minimum of effort.

That is "powerful". There is always a trade off between power and ease of use. Nothing has more power than a bash shell on a full set of bsd/gnu utilities, but very few things are as hard to use.

You don't need to do excessive clicking, swiping, dragging, or keystrokes. That doesn't require an "obvious" interface, just one you've learned.

And a motivated user will learn anything. Case in point, I have worked in JCL and COBOL.

And any interface has to be learned.

That's as useful as saying that every computer language that is Turing complete can be used to solve any problem. While technically true there are such vast differences in practical use that the statement carries no meaning.

Put a 3 year old in front of an iPad. She will be using it in no time. Put her in front of Metro. She won't. Put her in front of PowerShell and see how far she gets. Hand her Adobe Premiere for her 4th birthday and watch her make good use of it.

The trade off is there for a reason. And it has to strike the right balance for the task at hand. Editing video is not in the same league as finding the application you need or closing an application.

Your main objection seems to be that you've already learned the interfaces you know and you don't want to be bothered learning or having to know how to use a new one.

Completely incorrect. I learn new interfaces all the time. They all share one thing in common; they are good trade offs between power and ease of use for their intended usage.

Windows 8 strikes the wrong balance. It trades ease of use for power which is not of any use for an average user of a touch UI. Or even an extreme user of a touch UI.

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold, but that by itself doesn't make the new interface a bad one.

If that had been my actual stance, but I do not hold to that. Windows 8 is broken because it strikes the wrong balance between power and ease of use. The difficulty to do basic tasks does not translate into more usable power; it's an OS, not a video editing suite.

Jesper

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KewlEugene Regular Member • Posts: 306
Re: Win8 vs Win7

I would buy a reasonably priced $400 W8 machine with a single chip AMD/Intel, one SATA hard drive, two USB3.0, bluetooth, widi, SD slot, wifi, and a small 4 to 6 in touchpad diag screen.

Leon Obers Senior Member • Posts: 2,788
Re: Win8 vs Win7
1

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

Leon Obers wrote:

jalywol wrote:

Well....after using it for a day and a half, and downloading software to give me back some of my desktop functions,

Than you didn't optimize to your liking at all.
All is possible within Win8,

but I do get a kick out of reading their illogical and highly "emotional" arguments here.

Well, reading your message, the only one that seems emotional is not me, but you yourself.
The previous poster (jalywol) did already use Win8. In a common sense illogical and a wast of time to go back to Win7 again IMO, only because some new features he was not familiar to it.

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Leon Obers

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,533
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...

theswede wrote:

And a motivated user will learn anything.

Hope your boss is not reading this forum or he/she will see how unmotivated you are to learn new stuff.

theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
3

Archer66 wrote:

theswede wrote:

And a motivated user will learn anything.

Hope your boss is not reading this forum or he/she will see how unmotivated you are to learn new stuff.

Considering I just sat down and learned the interface of an industrial CRM architecture (basically an SAP back with an Oracle intermediary with a CORBA middle layer) in about two hours and presented the information gained from that to facilitate the decision whether or not to create a proposal I think my boss has a fair indication of my willingness to learn new stuff.

As long as there is a point to learning it.

Jesper

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