Win8 vs Win7

Started Jun 10, 2013 | Discussions
dradam Senior Member • Posts: 2,819
Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
2

Glen Barrington wrote:

Win 8 defenders are, by and large, dilettantes who do no work of economic value on their Win 8 devices. They are happy to put up with the 'eccentricities' if it results in a "cool" PC experience.

Good post.

And Win 8 haters are, by and large, a group of crotchety old men who feel that their needs are either completely representative of those of most users (they aren't) or somehow more important because they do "real" work (they aren't and they don't).  What's more, for being a big group of "experts" they are somehow completely unable to adapt to even the slightest change.

Glen Barrington
Glen Barrington Forum Pro • Posts: 20,022
Re: Linux is an option
1

Patco wrote:

greyowl750 wrote:

No viruses or spyware for 3 yrs and counting..and yes you can run most windows software on it as well, using the Wine for windows program...look into it. I did, and im glad.

PS: most versions of Linux is free and 96% of the servers that supply us all with this thing called the internet use it, NOT WINDOWS.

Do you have a source for that statistic? A recent W3Techs survey of web server OS has all Unix & Unix-like (not just Linux) at 64.7%, and Windows at 35.3%. See "Servers" about half way down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Servers

Well greyowl750 may have gotten some of the facts wrong, but his overall point is spot on.  Linux, particularly the Unbutu flavors (Unbutu, Mint, etc) are very desktop friendly and a viable alternative for many.

I've installed Unbutu and Mint both as dual boot on 2 of my machines (Unbutu on my photography PC).  They were VERY easy to install, and offered NO problems with drivers or had any compatibility problems with either my HP i7 PC or my ACER HTPC.  This recent upgrade to Unbutu 12.10 did have one little problem, in that the default video driver didn't like my nvidia card, but the proprietary Linux card was also loaded and I had to tell Unbutu to use it.

It works great.  So much of the software is open source and free, and the commercial stuff seems to be very inexpensive. I will admit, I'm not too thrilled with most of the digital darkroom software, but there are a few titles with some value to me.

When I get time, I'm going to install WINe on Unbutu  (also free) and see how well the Windows version of ACDSee Pro 6 runs on Unbutu.  Or if Corel gets off its butt and produces After Shot Pro 2 for Linux, I might buy that and skip WINe.

Also, the Unbutu Unity GUI puts WIN 8 to shame as a touch GUI that supports both touch and keyboard and mouse.  Good design is out there, you just got to screw up your courage and explore it.

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Glen Barrington
Glen Barrington Forum Pro • Posts: 20,022
I don't hate, I just don't see the point. . .
1

On what is in it for me.  I understand why Microsoft wants me to get out the credit card, but I don't see why I should.

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dradam Senior Member • Posts: 2,819
Re: I don't hate, I just don't see the point. . .
2

Glen Barrington wrote:

On what is in it for me. I understand why Microsoft wants me to get out the credit card, but I don't see why I should.

Have you considered that you aren't actually being forced into upgrading?  That, too, seems to be a difficult concept for the hater group.

That said, if you are actually willing to pay MORE for an older version of Windows (like Midwest) rather than taking a couple minutes to learn something new, then there's a saying about a fool and his money that comes to mind.

VirtualMirage
VirtualMirage Veteran Member • Posts: 3,956
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

Midwest wrote:

VirtualMirage wrote:

Jumping in here....

Having everything I use 'expanded' on the desktop would create a much bigger bunch of applications than you have there. I don't want them all expanded all the time.

I use a PC for all my applications, not a tablet.

I use a PC too, that screenshot is from my desktop.  What you see there is only a fraction of what I have installed.  Using the scroll bar below or the wheel on your mouse will scroll the contents of the window, showing the rest of the applications, in a left to right fashion.

Speaking for myself, since they are within groups which I know what they are, I can easily spot them when I expand the group. Many business and IT and other applications don't have 'catchy' names that we can memorize. I guess you're not in that situation. Some of us are though.

I don't know if you are referring to me or TheSwede on this one.  On the one hand it sounds like your method of organization is similar to mine, yet your argument seems to be in favor of TheSwede.  The great thing with Windows, and with Windows 8, is you can use either method.

And in the end after doing all of this organization, how is the end result better? Or is it 'about as good, only different' and no real benefit?

The benefit is only to the person for whom it serves best.  I wouldn't want to organize my stuff in the way TheSwede prefers because it doesn't work for me, same as they may not want to organize their stuff the way I do.  The point is the ability to offer both, which Windows 8 does.  Just to some, this may not be as obvious of an option.

My computer and its OS are supposed to serve ME, not the other way around.

And does it not still?  I don't see me serving Windows 8 and bending to its whim.  I made it work for me, and without using 3rd party apps either.  And to the surprise of some, I didn't have to do much to make that happen.  I understood what they were trying to accomplish, I found a lot of familiarity in it after taking a little bit of time to use it.  I see the improvements that they plan to implement in 8.1 (a free upgrade to all 8 users) to further improve upon that.

Don't get me wrong, I love Windows 7.  It was, and probably still is, my favorite Windows yet.  Windows 8 had some big shoes to fill to come close to that kind of success out the gate. Luckily, Windows 8's foundation is based off of Windows 7 and there is a lot of familiarity there as well as some new stuff as well. If you don't get hung up on foreign Start screen and actually take a moment to use the OS as you would 7, you may just find it just as easy to use plus some improvements here and there that you may have not realized you were missing before.  I have been enjoying using 8 and haven't the slightest inclination to revert back to 7.

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Patco Forum Pro • Posts: 13,844
Re: Win8 vs Win7
2

walkaround wrote:

- IE10 is very fast, and stable.

One doesn't need Windows 8 to have IE10, though - MS made it available for Windows 7, as well.

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Patco
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Russell Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 12,617
Re: Win8 vs Win7
1

VirtualMirage wrote:

Multiple monitors is better on 8 than 7, the task bar is now available on both screens. The tile interface only pops up on one screen, the other is always in desktop mode. Switching between the two is quick and easy. The tile screen can be switched from one monitor or the other based on your preference.

Can you leave the tile screen up on one monitor all the time?

Thank you
Russell

kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,660
Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
1

dradam wrote:

And Win 8 haters are, by and large, a group of crotchety old men who feel that their needs are either completely representative of those of most users (they aren't) or somehow more important because they do "real" work (they aren't and they don't). What's more, for being a big group of "experts" they are somehow completely unable to adapt to even the slightest change.

experts don't change/adapt for the sake of change.  An actual need must be met.  And that's the heart of it - Win8 isn't solving needs for desktop users.

When I see corporate America get onboard, I'll pay a bit more attention.  People do REAL WORK on Windows 7.

dradam Senior Member • Posts: 2,819
Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
1

kelpdiver wrote:

dradam wrote:

And Win 8 haters are, by and large, a group of crotchety old men who feel that their needs are either completely representative of those of most users (they aren't) or somehow more important because they do "real" work (they aren't and they don't). What's more, for being a big group of "experts" they are somehow completely unable to adapt to even the slightest change.

experts don't change/adapt for the sake of change. An actual need must be met. And that's the heart of it - Win8 isn't solving needs for desktop users.

When I see corporate America get onboard, I'll pay a bit more attention. People do REAL WORK on Windows 7.

People also do "real work" on XP, or OSX, or Linux.  People could certainly do "real work" in Windows 8 (without much need for any large changes).  Many people do "real work" on a tractor or behind a grill or on an assembly line.  Perhaps we can drop this whole presumption that the only worthy work is that done by people that exist in a very specific technical space.

As for the experts, of course they don't change willy nilly, but neither are they completely unable to adapt to new situations.  Folks around here, on the other hand, certainly don't seem like they are capable of such adaptation.  Instead, it seems that they saw a new looking Start Screen and were so befuddled that they immediately put their underpants on their heads and started running into walls.

kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,660
Re: Linux is an option
1

Patco wrote:

greyowl750 wrote:

No viruses or spyware for 3 yrs and counting..and yes you can run most windows software on it as well, using the Wine for windows program...look into it. I did, and im glad.

PS: most versions of Linux is free and 96% of the servers that supply us all with this thing called the internet use it, NOT WINDOWS.

Do you have a source for that statistic? A recent W3Techs survey of web server OS has all Unix & Unix-like (not just Linux) at 64.7%, and Windows at 35.3%. See "Servers" about half way down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Servers

publicly viewable (and identifiable) servers represent a tiny portion of the actual infrastructure of the internet.  In the classic 3 tier  web product (web server + app server + database), you only see one of them - the most lightweight in fact.  It's easy to be a web server, much more so than the other two.

96%?  Don't know.   I know that mine has roughly 10,000 serving millions and I don't believe a single one is windows.  Only a couple hundred would be reachable by a survey like the one you describe above.  The answer is going to be the same at google, where they have millions of servers.  It's inane to waste memory and cpu and stability (which is certainly better than it was, but it was crap) for a pretty gui when no one is ever going to log into the server in the first place.  So yes, I'd expect the answer is over 90%.

theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

Windows Key + C, click on search. Or Windows key to get to the Start Screen, move mouse to right to bring up Charms, and select search. You will see this:

I. Do. Not. Know. The. Name.

And I never will.

Plus, I have no Windows key. And I will not drag around a spare keyboard just to have one.

With exception to it being left to right instead of top to bottom, it is in the same hierarchy you would see in 7.

Except there is no dig down hierarchy, with the company providing the gadget I an looking for the control software for first, and the second level being the task the software is intended to be used for, and the third the cryptic named software and its documentation, usually maybe 5-6 links. For about a dozen companies, each with a varying number of tasks.

Dumping these links in the start screen and expecting me to remember what the actual unituitively named applications (and documents) simply does not work.

The computer is excellent at organizing and remembering. Why is it dumping that task on me? I have better things to keep my mind on. That cognitive load does not help me in the least. I'm fully occupied with working, having to deal with a petulant start screen provides me with no benefits, no extra pay, and loses me time instead of saves it.

If the application installation creates a Start folder, it will be under that "group" name, just like 7. The difference is that with 7 you have to view into those folders via highlighting or clicking and here it is already expanded.

And that expansion makes it in practice impossible to navigate properly. A huge slab of icons. What good does that do me?

Is that too hard? See, it isn't lost. The hierarchy is still there.

Yes, that is definitely too hard. It wastes cognitive effort and time, and shows me hundreds of applications I am not interested in when I am looking for those from only one equipment provider. And the hierarchy is not prominent, it is FLAT.

Not to mention, the Windows key? Really?

You can and be more organized, or you can do what I showed you above and use the older layout Microsoft used.

Except I can't, since it's a full screen, flat organization which takes over from what I am doing and does not let me focus on what I am working on.

You just have more options now. While you prefer to organize by manufacturer, I prefer to organize by what they do.

I have more options which do not do what I want at the expense of the option of doing what I want. Yeah, that's better.

Sounds like then you have a problem. If you don't know what they are named, then how do you know what you are looking for.

Yes, I have a problem. That is the entire point I am making. And you have not helped solve it in the slightest.

I know what I'm looking for because I know the manufacturer of the equipment I am connecting to and the task I am going to perform on it. I dive into that in the start menu while keeping the document on what I will do open to guide me, and I click the correct program.

Dead simple. And requires me to see the document while navigating the start menu to the correct hierarchical position. Which Windows 8 provides me with precisely zero options on how to do.

You mean just like in Windows 7? Wow!

Wow! Sarcasm, there's a feature I have never seen before.

Shows me how well you know Windows.

Good for a browser and Outlook. Not so good for engineering software.

Huh? So are you assuming that your apps will be full screen only in Windows 8?

What does that have to do with pinning programs to the task bar?

So I take it your book shelves organize themselves too as well as everything in your house?

I use ebooks. Organize once and it's done. Besides, my books are my hobby, not something I get paid by the hour to do.

Or do you not have time for that either?

Non sequitur. You propose I waste my paid time, lowering my productivity, to perform tasks my computer previously performed for me. Will Microsoft pay me for those lost hours?

By dragging tiles around you can group them into columns.

I work with dozens of new computers every year. I have no time to sit and play lego with them. And I routinely get new versions of equipment management software. Often I need multiple versions installed at the same time.

Now all that arranges automatically. You're actually, seriously, proposing I waste my customer's time sitting manually playing around with icons every time I install something new? What does that gain my customer? Or me?

So the applications don't have names? They only have their executable filename to go by?

Sometimes. And sometimes not. And I will not sit down to memorize that as it provides me with zero benefit, especially considering the applications often come in new versions and change.

Sounds like a quality control issue, but easy enough to turn on. That's not Microsoft's fault, nor is it Windows 8's.

Regardless, it's been on about 50/50. And what was discuseed was how often safe boot is switched on.

Nope. How does someone know that swiping down on iOS brings up the notification bar

Because of the little notifications you're grabbing and sliding down when you do that. That's how I learned it; I was like "what is that?", grabbed and pulled it down, and there were my notifications. Visual cues at work.

or when two or when a hold hand is used you can switch between apps, etc.?

What does that even mean?

Those aren't natural ideas, but ones that people had to learn or stumble upon.

The point is that it's either a natural idea or has visual cues. Windows 8 eschews both.

iOS and Android are just as confounding to close apps on.

They both have a close button. Which does not move. It's physical.

iOS you have to double tap the home button then press and hold an app icon in the bottom.

Or just press the close button.

Android you have to go into the menus a few layers deep to kill anything.

Or press the close button.

Windows keeps it resident in the background and will close it automatically if not used and the memory needs to be freed up.

Or press the ... oh wait, there isn't one!

That is exactly how they are confusing.

Really?!? You do realize it is only the Metro apps that do this, not everything. And those apps are tailored to work fine in full screen.

And when I normally do not use them, dealing with one which pops up in the way of my work is frustrating as it lacks cues on how to handle it.

Provided you have one. My keyboard doesn't. I have no use for one.

I guess your SOL then.

Yup.

Again, that's your problem that shouldn't be extended upon others.

It's a feature, not a bug. A Windows key is a wasted key. And it's hardly unique to me. Next time you're taking a stroll through a production line, look at the PC's there. See how many have a windows key.

Every new Windows PC out there has a Windows Key and they have had Windows Keys on keyboards since the early 90's.

You really need to look at more keyboards. Especially industrial and point of sale models. Good luck finding a Windows key there.

And yet you think that the older Windows were this natural?

I think no computer system at all is "natural".

Really? Try again, it was more likely due to years of using it that you became familiar with where everything is at and how it functions and not because it had visual cues or skeumorphic expectations.

Of course familiarity comes from long time use. But getting started was easy, because there were obvious menus, icons, close buttons and such.

When those are gone there are no cues on how to handle the software. That means I have to keep non obvious gestures memorized. That is cognitive load - the very thing computers are intended to reduce - providing zero benefit.

The older Windows were NOT that obvious on how to get the most out of them.

Moving the goal posts are we? The point is doing BASIC TASKS, like closing a window. If you consider that "getting the most out of them" I have to wonder what you spend most of your days doing. Organizing start screens?

Which is good, but hardly anything most people get much out of.

I beg to differ. I have found it extremely useful.

Which makes you not most people. Point remains.

Jesper

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Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,448
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

theswede wrote:

The differences are very In Your Face and crippling for engineering and science users. I normally have at least dozens of programs to access industrial systems and subsystems installed, with confusing names. In the start menu they're grouped by manufacturer name and then by task to use them for - dead easy to find what I need.

This was about desktop and not about Modern UI. Just pin your most used programs to taskbar or create a shortcut on your desktop just like in Win 7.

You're seriously suggesting that pinning programs to a task bar will solve the issue of not knowing what program does what from what manufacturer?

Seriously?

I'm sorry, I thought you know what software you are using My bad.

I bet most power users do not even use Win 7 start menu, there is no need for it.

Either you don't read what I write or you don't understand the problem. Either way, your opinion on this subject is worthless.

ROFLOL

You do know that you can change it ?

Into a hierarchy organized as the Windows 7 start menu? Even if I can, why do I have to spend the time and effort doing this when in Windows 7 is starts out exactly like I want it with zero effort?

You have no idea what the problem is here.

I admit I can't see the problem bc it seems to be inside your head.

No it's not, most if not all new PCs have it on.

On the Dells we purchased in the last few months it has been about 50/50.

New or refurbished ?

And even if it isn't a signed root kit will still bypass it.

Pardon ?

Microsoft leaks keys like a sieve. There are plenty of Microsoft signed viruses and root kits in the wild today. Why will that change now?

Any proof of this that is not from a Linux forum ?

- Better file copying with enchanced dialog, you can even pause it

That's an application, not an OS feature.

WTF are you talking about ????

That it's an application. Sure, it's included, but if you move using another method there is no better copying. It's not implemented at an OS layer, it's just the Explorer copy dialog which is beefed up. There were plenty of such applications around going back to the NT4 days.

That said, good thing Microsoft included it. But it's hardly a change for a power user.

You lost me here, what does "move using another method there is no better copying" even mean ?

Again, this was about desktop.

You can never get away from Metro. If nothing else, the start screen remains Metro.

There are 3rd party programs that allow you to boot directly to the desktop.

8.1 will allow you to boot to the desktop and other booting options will be available too.

Hyper V isnt ?

It's a bare bones one. Hardly enough for power users. Or for me either, for that matter.

So what are you using ?

Err, there is big difference. Use Google to find out more.

Uhm. No. The printer still needs the driver. It's just that the dial home and get it method is smoother.

BS FUD

You conveniently left out part of what my comment was about:

"but if your printer manufacturer hasn't paid its Microsoft tax that won't help you much."

You've really shown you understand and can address all issues I raised. This level of response all along would have saved you a lot of typing, and is pretty much the level of comprehension of the issues you display.

As long as you keep spreading FUD I will call it BS.

kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,660
Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
1

dradam wrote:

Folks around here, on the other hand, certainly don't seem like they are capable of such adaptation. Instead, it seems that they saw a new looking Start Screen and were so befuddled that they immediately put their underpants on their heads and started running into walls.

What they saw was a perfectly usable UI farked up beyond belief when MS crapped their pants over the IOS/Android domination of phones and tablets, two markets that have been displacing a bit chunk of the desktop world that they dominate.

This is no new problem.  It's irritates me to no end that the Office product on my company MBP behaves entirely differently than the Office product on my win 7 WM.  Thankfully with the migration away from Outlook/Entourage to Gmail, I can kill the VM and get more real work done on the parent OS - Ubuntu.

Win 7 is terrible for touch, as seen with products like the Asus i5 tablet from 2 years ago.  But touch is only the answer for a few problems.

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,448
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

theswede wrote:

I have no idea what they're named.

How do you find them even in Win 7 if you don't know their names ?????

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,448
Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
1

Glen Barrington wrote:

Win 8 defenders are, by and large, dilettantes who do no work of economic value on their Win 8 devices. They are happy to put up with the 'eccentricities' if it results in a "cool" PC experience.

Nah, we just hate FUD.

jalywol
jalywol Veteran Member • Posts: 9,696
Re: Win8 vs Win7
1

raymb wrote:

Not withstanding the much maligned metro interface on Win8, which can be replaced with third

party software. Are there any benefits in Win8 as an operating system that would make the switch worthwhile?.

Many thanks in advance

Earilier this year, I realized it was time to replace my aging Vista machine with a new one.  My secondary computer (print server), is Win 7, as is my laptop, but the one I do most of my photo editing work on is a Vista machine (I like to say it is the only one they ever made with that OS that actually ever worked   ).  So, off I went to buy a new desktop....Looked at Win 8 in the store, didn't think it looked bad, and seemed fast enough, so I bought one.

Well....after using it for a day and a half, and downloading software to give me back some of my desktop functions, I realized that the way they had things set up was simply going to make me unproductive.  Having to keep switiching between Desktop and Metro modes to get my mail; not being able to have more than one app on the screen up in Metro.....and not being able to customize the look of the desktop to what I am most comfortable with, all just made this a losing proposition for me, so I brought the computer back, and ordered essentially the same thing from  HP, but with Win7 instead.  What a relief when that arrived!

The only pro to Win 8, as far as I could see, was that it booted up faster, and seemed pretty zippy to use.  Everything else about it was a MASSIVE fail if you use your computer for productivity and not primarily poking around on Facebook.

As others have written, when MS gets around to releasing Win 9, I would imagine they will get it right....They seem to screw up every OTHER iteration of OSs....Win98 was good, Win ME was dreadful; Win XP was great, Vista was a disaster when it was released (although by the end of its run they had made it work mostly ok), Win7 was terrific, Win8 is a lost cause....so Win 9 should be pretty good, if they actually realize that designing for productivity is important to probably most users who are actually working on a computer and not a tablet....

Moral of the story.....Do NOT switch to Win8.  Hold off til the next gen Win OS is released instead.  If you have an OLD machine that has XP or Vista on it, and you need an updated OS, then just get a copy of Win7 for now instead.  If you need a new computer, you can still order ones from HP and I think maybe Dell also that have Win 7; but you won't be able to find any in most retail outlets.

-J

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,448
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

Glen Barrington wrote:

drj3 wrote:

- Better taskmanager

The task manager is better looking than before, but otherwise not that different. It does integrate other parts of the control panel. Whether that is better or worse is more a matter of taste. Seeing as I come from the "do one job and do it well" camp I'm still undecided.

I find task manager far better than any previous version of Window. For the first time you can easily and quickly kill a program that is not responding. In addition it gives a very good real time CPU usage percent for active programs.

Better than Win7? Heck, better than Vista even? I've used all three, and I see no real benefit of one over the other. I'm willing to listen politely as you explain HOW it's better though.

drj3 just did that.

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,448
Re: Linux is an option
1

Glen Barrington wrote:

Patco wrote:

greyowl750 wrote:

most versions of Linux is free and 96% of the servers that supply us all with this thing called the internet use it, NOT WINDOWS.

Do you have a source for that statistic? A recent W3Techs survey of web server OS has all Unix & Unix-like (not just Linux) at 64.7%, and Windows at 35.3%. See "Servers" about half way down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Servers

Well greyowl750 may have gotten some of the facts wrong, but his overall point is spot on. Linux, particularly the Unbutu flavors (Unbutu, Mint, etc) are very desktop friendly and a viable alternative for many.

Linux having less than 2% market share I wouldnt call that many.

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,448
Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
1

kelpdiver wrote:

dradam wrote:

And Win 8 haters are, by and large, a group of crotchety old men who feel that their needs are either completely representative of those of most users (they aren't) or somehow more important because they do "real" work (they aren't and they don't). What's more, for being a big group of "experts" they are somehow completely unable to adapt to even the slightest change.

experts don't change/adapt for the sake of change. An actual need must be met. And that's the heart of it - Win8 isn't solving needs for desktop users.

When I see corporate America get onboard, I'll pay a bit more attention. People do REAL WORK on Windows 7.

Actually big part of American corporations are still using Windows XP.
Those who are running Win 7 did the switch recently so they are not looking to update in next 2-3 years.

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,448
Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
1

theswede wrote:

iOS and Android are just as confounding to close apps on.

They both have a close button. Which does not move. It's physical

I have Samsung Tab 7.7 with Android 3.2 and I love reading ebooks with Kindle reader. Can you tell me how I close it with a close button ?

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