Canikon another dinosaur?

Started Jun 3, 2013 | Discussions
zkz5
zkz5 Contributing Member • Posts: 665
What EVF is that?
1

Midwest wrote:

I would not enjoy my kind of shooting at all if I had to fight an EVF that lags or tears or freezes or is too dim to view on a bright sunny day without waiting several seconds for my eye to adjust to it. For you that change works fine. It would not for me.

What EVF have you used that has all these problems?

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,418
But if you own a T Rex...
2

You're king of the jungle :^)

Ara Ararauna

It's good to be King!

Just Having Fun Veteran Member • Posts: 3,869
Your Bad logic.

Richard wrote:

Just Having Fun wrote:

Richard wrote:

Just Having Fun wrote:

Your posts always amuse me.  I still love your rant about how you ONLY a "Canon 1D level of camera" is considered professional.

No rant, just the facts ma'am

This of course right about the same time the Sun-Times fired all their DSLR using photographers and told them to get iPhones.  Go figure - your timing stinks.

Doesn't change the fact they are pro cameras in a pro camera line and the m43 are not pro cameras. Sorry that doesn't fit into your little delusion.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger!  It was just funny that the actual people who employ "professional" photographers said the opposite of your rant.   Sorry that conflicts with your little delusion.

So you are saying if they all would have m43...

Only YOU keep mentioning M43...almost like you have a motive.

I wouldn't get so hung up on names of cameras, but instead focus on what you can do with them.  For example here is a pro blogging about his life with an iPhone...

http://connect.dpreview.com/post/8431150208/sun-times-photographer-life-after-layoffs?sidebar

FFS Senior Member • Posts: 1,757
Re: Upper limit to IQ?
1

Just Having Fun wrote:

I love phones with actual buttons, but I don't know anyone who has purchase a cell phone with buttons in the past 3 years.

No excuse of not having one. It was released not 2 months ago.

http://www.gsmarena.com/blackberry_q10-5274.php

I don't know anyone saying that.  I love my DSLR, but I also know things change.  Like I said, phones with real buttons disappeared, as did/are LPs, VHS, cassette tapes, typewriters, film cameras, wrist watches, land lines, pagers, dial-up internet, and even DVDs.  Does anyone buy CDs anymore..which provide high quality than MP3s?

A particular technology is not used anymore if its perceived functions are completely duplicated without any workaround.  But if it is not, then it lives on.  If DSLR lives on, I suspect electronics has not completely duplicated the properties of glass with reflective coating yet.  I think the perceived gap of image processing speed is the biggest factor here.

Rexgig0 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,902
Re: There is a dinosaur in a tree near you

One little "dinosaur," that tells me Nikon is still relevant, is the Coolpix A. With an APS-C sensor, an excellent 28mm-equivalent lens, the ability to mount or connect to a pro-level Speedlight, and a size that is compact without being so small I am afraid of dropping it, this is a very good camera for my perceived needs. My wife liked it too, and claimed my first one for herself, so I am saving for a second one.

The A is not perfect. Among other things, its lens is a bit wide to appeal to many people. The technology and size equation, however, is quite interesting, showing what Nikon can do.

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Just Having Fun Veteran Member • Posts: 3,869
Re: Upper limit to IQ?

FFS wrote:

Just Having Fun wrote:

I love phones with actual buttons, but I don't know anyone who has purchase a cell phone with buttons in the past 3 years.

No excuse of not having one. It was released not 2 months ago.

http://www.gsmarena.com/blackberry_q10-5274.php

I had a Balckberry back in the 90's, but do people still buy those?   Almost no one buys Windows phones either (only 3.2% of smartphone market) but some how they passed Blackberry (below 3%).

http://www.dailytech.com/IDC+Windows+Phone+Passes+BlackBerry+for+Third+Place+in+Q1+Shipments/article31569.htm

Most people who want buttons on their phones buy these...

http://cordlessworkz.com/jitterbug-phone.aspx?gclid=COHbq-fQzbcCFe9cMgodX34AcQ

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 16,973
Re: What EVF is that?
3

zkz5 wrote:

Midwest wrote:

I would not enjoy my kind of shooting at all if I had to fight an EVF that lags or tears or freezes or is too dim to view on a bright sunny day without waiting several seconds for my eye to adjust to it. For you that change works fine. It would not for me.

What EVF have you used that has all these problems?

I haven't had an EVF in the past few years. I just figure if people are writing posts about those issues with their own cameras presently, they've got no reason to be making them up. If they want to live with that kind of a viewfinder I say 'hurray for them'. Use what you like.

My camera's viewfinder has none of those issues. The laws of physics have proven fairly reliable.

FFS Senior Member • Posts: 1,757
Re: Upper limit to IQ?
1

Just Having Fun wrote:

FFS wrote:

Just Having Fun wrote:

I love phones with actual buttons, but I don't know anyone who has purchase a cell phone with buttons in the past 3 years.

No excuse of not having one. It was released not 2 months ago.

http://www.gsmarena.com/blackberry_q10-5274.php

I had a Balckberry back in the 90's, but do people still buy those?   Almost no one buys Windows phones either (only 3.2% of smartphone market) but some how they passed Blackberry (below 3%).

I don't think RIM (now Blackberry), in its financial position, is wise to release a phone with a keyboard that it is not sure will be well received.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/apr/29/blackberry-q10-sellout-uk

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 16,973
Re: Your Urban Legend
3

Just Having Fun wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Just Having Fun wrote:

mferencz wrote:

The mere fact that you opened this post and responded to it tells me your concerned enough to take the 30 seconds out of your life which it entails.  If the article was just nonsense I would assume that wouldn't be the case.

Maybe some one should clue him in on this...

Phase-detection autofocus (even using still targets and center-point only) wasn’t nearly as accurate as contrast detection.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras

If you want the most accurate focusing you need CDAF.  Even manual focusing is not better...

The contrast-detection autofocus was about as accurate as the most careful manual focusing.

As long as you have time for CDAF it's great. Unfortunately it's far too slow...

That of course is an Urban Legend.

DPR for years (since the GH2) has been reporting that many CDAF cameras are some of the fastest focusing cameras on the market.

(example: "Single AF acquisition is impressively fast - using most Micro Four Thirds lenses will result in some of the fastest focus on any system.")

So while focus tracking is still an Achilles heal, CDAF does offer more accurate focusing and  "some of the fastest focus on any system".

I NEED to be able to track focus sometimes. Why the sales pitch? Do I need permission and justification to use the camera that works for me?

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice. (sarcasm)

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 16,973
Re: Mirrorless lenses = LPs
3

Bingo!

nzmacro wrote:
All the best and the DSLR for nature and sports is going nowhere

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 16,973
Re: Say what?????
1

Just Having Fun wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Richard wrote:

Canon may ditch the the EOSM but Nikon seems to have a good product. I understand what Canon was trying to do but I think they missed the mark which was to be small with small lens

Canon has come out with the smallest DSLR on the market - noticeably smaller while not giving up anything in the way of body controls or functionality.....

Maybe you need to look at this...

http://camerasize.com/compact/#448,237,ha,f

How is that "noticeably smaller"?

This has been tried before.  The only difference is the Sony's had better sensors, offered 10 FPS, and a lot more.

Now look at this and tell me which is "noticeably smaller" ...

I said noticeably smaller than other DSLR's. The Sony is not a DSLR.

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 16,973
Re: Say what?????
1

Josh152 wrote:

Personally I think Microsoft would have had a real winner if they only ran one of the two UIs in win 8 at a time.  IF you had a tablet, you run the "modern ui" or what ever they call it and if you have a desktop you run the normal desktop UI that everyone is used to and is much more productive for people who use their computers for more than just facebook and "pwning noobz".

I still can't believe MS made such a colossal and obvious mistake of trying to use two different UIs at once.  If they had just let some people off the street use Win 8 in front of them they would have realized they were making a mistake in the 5 minutes the people spent trying to find the desktop as the grew more and more p*ssed off.

I totally agree with you. If it had an option to switch back and forth that would be a whole different story. MS should have had you on the product planning team. Make the tablet and desktop compatible for moving things between and provide at least 'lite' apps for the tablet. The tablet style interface just does not work well for productivity, and I see how hard MS is pushing to get '8' out on as many PC's as possible.

I know people who bought new PC's and are having 7 installed; I just got my mom in law a new PC from Dell making sure to spec one that came with Windows 7 on it.

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice. (sarcasm)

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee
Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee Veteran Member • Posts: 6,080
Forecasting the future is not easy..
1

I have four systems. I've a big Canon D system which I use for everything and sports. I've an older Olympus E3 system (used to have the useless E1) which I keep in my holiday house abroad. I've a Panasonic G1 MFT system which is ultralight and which I use with two bodies for cycletouring, and I recently got a NEX-7 system for non-cycling holidays.

The Canon is too heavy for holidays. The NEX is useless for sports but a superb pictorial camera.

The MFT is pretty good but useless for sports.

Electronic VF are good to previsualise the effects of exposure. The one in the NEX is good enough for action, but the AF isn't. The NEX-7 shoots only 300 shots per battery. The Canons do 5000.

I read the article. I think that size and weight are very important, otherwise I'd only have Canon.

We'll have to wait and see..

One observation. If MFT was going to succeed, shouldn't it be increasing its share by now?

I changed from Microsoft to Apple about 3 years ago. Apple is slowly increasing and I'm sure it will replace Microsoft..

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MatsP
MatsP Senior Member • Posts: 2,112
Re: There is a dinosaur in a tree near you

One little "dinosaur," that tells me Nikon is still relevant, is the Coolpix A. With an APS-C sensor, an excellent 28mm-equivalent lens, the ability to mount or connect to a pro-level Speedlight, and a size that is compact without being so small I am afraid of dropping it, this is a very good camera for my perceived needs. My wife liked it too, and claimed my first one for herself, so I am saving for a second one.

The A is not perfect. Among other things, its lens is a bit wide to appeal to many people. The technology and size equation, however, is quite interesting, showing what Nikon can do.

And if I'm not wrong Canon has something similar with a sensor close to MFT in size, maybe with a zoom lens though.

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Josh152 Senior Member • Posts: 1,946
Re: And Yet....

rattymouse wrote:

.....no mirrorless camera maker is making ANY money at all.

Canon and Nikon are quite profitable.  Mirrorless is losing heaps of money.

-- hide signature --

9 years of Fujifilm camera usage, ended by rampant fanboyism.

Yep if anything the smart money is on mirroless ILC systems going away.  Probably not all of them  the niche they occupy is just too small to support so many similar competing products.  No one can get a big enough piece of the pie to make profit and likely won't be able to until there are less at the table looking for a slice.

zkz5
zkz5 Contributing Member • Posts: 665
Re: What EVF is that?

Midwest wrote:

I haven't had an EVF in the past few years. I just figure if people are writing posts about those issues with their own cameras presently, they've got no reason to be making them up. If they want to live with that kind of a viewfinder I say 'hurray for them'. Use what you like.

My camera's viewfinder has none of those issues. The laws of physics have proven fairly reliable.

Sounds like they're just exaggerating based on their personal beliefs and biases just like these "DSLRs are dead!!" people are. Even my old GF-1 viewfinder doesn't have most of those problems and that thing is a piece of junk (because it is small and has poor resolution).

I'm quite surprised at how good EVFs have gotten, even on my $250 G3. I find it much nicer than any entry-level DSLR viewfinder I've looked through. You might want to take a look through a more recent one. Or if you want to just continue relaying other people's opinions, here's one more to take in to account.

Josh152 Senior Member • Posts: 1,946
Re: Say what?????

Midwest wrote:

Josh152 wrote:

Personally I think Microsoft would have had a real winner if they only ran one of the two UIs in win 8 at a time.  IF you had a tablet, you run the "modern ui" or what ever they call it and if you have a desktop you run the normal desktop UI that everyone is used to and is much more productive for people who use their computers for more than just facebook and "pwning noobz".

I still can't believe MS made such a colossal and obvious mistake of trying to use two different UIs at once.  If they had just let some people off the street use Win 8 in front of them they would have realized they were making a mistake in the 5 minutes the people spent trying to find the desktop as the grew more and more p*ssed off.

I totally agree with you. If it had an option to switch back and forth that would be a whole different story. MS should have had you on the product planning team. Make the tablet and desktop compatible for moving things between and provide at least 'lite' apps for the tablet. The tablet style interface just does not work well for productivity, and I see how hard MS is pushing to get '8' out on as many PC's as possible.

I know people who bought new PC's and are having 7 installed; I just got my mom in law a new PC from Dell making sure to spec one that came with Windows 7 on it.

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice. (sarcasm)

I doubt I would be qualified to be on the product planning team lol but if MS has simply let few people try yo do the work they normally do on their Win 7/vista/XP machine on win 8 and observed what happened and then interviewed the people about their experience I think Win 8 would have turned out more like you and I propose.  It is clear they did little to no user testing with people who would actually be using win 8 on desktops.  I mean I dont' know a single person who could just sit down and start using win 8 without lots of instruction, even those who are computer savvy.   My mother would be completely lost for months trying to figure out how to work it.

Klaus dk
Klaus dk Veteran Member • Posts: 4,178
Re: Upper limit to IQ?
1

Just Having Fun wrote:

[...]
I love phones with actual buttons, but I don't know anyone who has purchase a cell phone with buttons in the past 3 years.

That may be so, but it is not the case with DSLRs. DSLR sales increase, so somebody must think it is the right technology presently.

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nzmacro
nzmacro Forum Pro • Posts: 14,347
Re: Mirrorless lenses = LPs
1

Olymore wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with you but don't you think that what you shoot is fairly specialised.

Most consumers with an interest in photography will be going for smaller equipment with a corresponding smaller sensor as the quality is 'good enough'.

However I still think Canon and Nikon will be the big boys operating in that sphere.

And I think Nikon was actually ahead of their time with their mirrorless system (though poorly implemented).

If M43 sensors are good enough for most people now, 1 inch and Nikon 1 sensors will be good enough in a few years time.

This is where we are all different. I really only visit nature forums and hang out in the bird / avian forums mostly. International forums, not just a one brand forum.

Here's where it all changes, its called spot the mirrorless camera............

http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/ic.cgi?a=vg1&ns=1

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=3

http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/forumdisplay.php/2-Avian

http://www.juzaphoto.com/galleria.php?cat=2&srt=mcommento&show=&l=en

Now that's just 4 and they have been going for many years with a ton of members, not just a few. Not to mention the rest of the forums on those, wildlife, macro, etc. I doubt any of those people will ever go for a smaller format or want smaller lenses.

There are no lenses to compete with what they use and I doubt there ever will be. Then there is that sensor size difference.

All the best and there's always the sports forums

Danny.

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nzmacro
nzmacro Forum Pro • Posts: 14,347
Re: Argument against DVDs and CDs
1

Just Having Fun wrote:

nzmacro wrote:

Just Having Fun wrote:

nzmacro wrote:

Canon and Nikon have no problem

http://www.dpreview.com/products/Nikon/lenses

http://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/lenses

Danny

Those DLSR lenses are like LPs (records).   They will always work, and some will prefer them, but records were mostly replaced by smaller CDs...which are now being replaced by MP3 (which mostly have lesser quality).

Sure DSLR lenses will work on mirrorless cameras, but in few years almost everyone will prefer smaller/optimized mirrorless lenses.

When it comes to long fast lenses m4/3, NEX and mirrorless is the LP and DSLR's are the DVD's.

There are no native lenses for m4/3, NEX or mirroless that will convince a lot of serious nature and sports shooters and then there is that sensor size. I shoot next to them all the time mate and what they take at the ISO's they use is quite amazing to see and they still crop heavily.

Without the lenses, it just doesn't stack up for mirrorless. Canon and Nikon have that market sewn up and people are already addicted to the lenses they have.

All the best and the DSLR for nature and sports is going nowhere

Danny.

-- hide signature --

I think you need to understand the article was talking about in 10 years and not today.

I remember when everyone said DVDs will never catch on because all the good movies were only on VHS.  Several studios were holding out, and only a handful of new releases were coming out on DVD (remember the original DiVX? which was going stop DVD before it started).

Same thing with CDs.  People said they would not catch on because Analog LPs sounded better and bands like The Beatles were not releasing music on CD.

"the DSLR for nature... is going nowhere"

Oh, you switched to DSLRs?

(Here is what is ironic.  Danny uses mirrorless for nature photography and I use a DLSR for my sports....yet we argue the opposite...go figure)

LOL, fair enough, but you know I'm the odd one out with just a few other people using mirrorles in that way I still can't compete with the ISO and cropping from FF, close, but there's still that large gap with the sensor sizes.

In 10 years time do you think most sports and nature photographers will be using mirrorless and small formats ?? I can't see it from the shots I see from them today and the lens line up they have. Go into any nature and sports forum and see if you can convince them to give up those sensors and lenses....... even 10 years from now.

I read the article and then looked at his shots, he doesn't need anything else, what for. Most people taking photos and yep I agree, but you won't get people with nature and sports using smaller sensors and lenses.

If that was the case, go with the Nikon1 system. There is only one thing wrong with that system and its not the lenses why sports and nature shooters don't flock to it

Anyway, back to shooting, I'm after birds again. See ya JHF

Danny.

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