Is everyone here a professional now

Started Jun 3, 2013 | Discussions
brianj Forum Pro • Posts: 14,657
Is everyone here a professional now
5

When this site began it seemed to be teaming with amatuer and hobbyist photographer who revelled in getting more out of their new 2mp P&S digital cameras, it was really exciting days.

Now when I am reading threads people talk about carrying a P&S for unexpected things like someone runs into their car, but here's the interesting part, they say 'but when I am on a serious shoot' I take out the DSLR.

I take photos all the time and when I go on holidays I take a lot more, I love taking photos, but there is nothing serious about it, its just to record my family's life and have fun.

What is this serious photography that requires a DSLR, is it paid work, or something that their life depends on, will they lose face?

Can anyone please explain what has happened to people these days that everything has become so serious, where is the fun gone?  Is it only over on the Connect site?

Brian

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Draek
Draek Senior Member • Posts: 2,028
It's not about being a professional...
1

...it's simply putting more thought into what you do. Like the difference between writing a forum post and writing a short novel; even if you don't publish it, or if you do but give it away for free online, there's still orders of magnitude of difference in effort and care. It's the difference between being an amateur in the true sense of the word, someone dedicated to the art itself, and a bored person looking for a way to kill time.

Not to offend the latter, of course—I treat drawing the same way, but I'm not about to suggest people who're serious about it (professional or otherwise) to drop Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop and replace it with the smartphone app I use whose name I can't remember.

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OP brianj Forum Pro • Posts: 14,657
Re: It's not about being a professional...

Draek wrote:

...it's simply putting more thought into what you do. Like the difference between writing a forum post and writing a short novel; even if you don't publish it, or if you do but give it away for free online, there's still orders of magnitude of difference in effort and care. It's the difference between being an amateur in the true sense of the word, someone dedicated to the art itself, and a bored person looking for a way to kill time.

Not to offend the latter, of course—I treat drawing the same way, but I'm not about to suggest people who're serious about it (professional or otherwise) to drop Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop and replace it with the smartphone app I use whose name I can't remember.

So everyone here isn't a professional, what you are saying is that many have become passionate.

Is the quest to become as passionate as your budget will allow?  I guess i am not passionate to such an extreme because I am not willing to sell my kidneys just to buy the lastest and greatest.

I get a lot of fun from just trying to get the most out of any equipment, it could just be an old second hand camera, like the fellow who recently bought a G5 just because he always wanted one.  But what ever it is I am passionate about trying to get it to work the way I want.

I mean anyone could re-morgage the house and go out and buy the best and say hey look what this gear can do.  But what enjoyment would that be, its no accumplishment by the photographer.  Someone demonstrated how some camera could produce a beautiful image at ISO54000, so what.

I am trying to work out why I am becoming a dinosaur and out of step here.

Brian

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SirLataxe
SirLataxe Veteran Member • Posts: 3,895
Re: Is everyone here a professional now
1

Brian,

There are any number of professional consumers hereabouts; also many professional self-deluders (aided & abetted by advertising men) intent on a somewhat narcissistic self-belief in their Special Vision and Magic shutter-button finger.

Naturally this goes well with the acquisition of gubbins that, although far beyond their understanding, does serve as a sort of proclamatory emblem of photographic "worth".  Hang the Great Machine around your neck (label frontwards) and strut about snappin' importantly!

Perhaps there are also one or two professional photographers, although these are a dying breed, killed by what we in Blighty would call "cowboys" were they plasterers or drain-fixers (i.e. they adopt the title of a profession but seem to neglect the necessary skills).

Still, this is the post-modern world and everyone is what he says he is, no matter how bizarre the disjoint atween the proud titles and reality!

SirLataxe, whose own title is also entirely imaginary.

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: Is everyone here a professional now
1

Who says SLR's arent fun?

The only thing not fun about DPR is the incessant bigotry against SLR users.

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Martin.au
Martin.au Forum Pro • Posts: 13,230
Re: Is everyone here a professional now

rattymouse wrote:

Who says SLR's arent fun?

The only thing not fun about DPR is the incessant bigotry against SLR users.

Bahahaaaaaaaaaaa.

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ARShutterbug
ARShutterbug Veteran Member • Posts: 8,976
What happened to fun?
1

You may be reading the wrong messages if you're not noticing the bulk of the amateur and hobbyist photographers.  For me, of course, it was never about fun.  I wouldn't have continued doing photography if it was only for fun, because photography is expensive and risky.  Fooling around with the camera in your spare time doesn't get you far, but hard work and dedication does return results.

If you want to know where the fun in life went, start by looking at what the governments and central banking cartels have done to societies.  Millions of people in the developed nations are living by a few threads, savings are being depleted to keep up with living expenses, purchasing power is being lost to the inflation of the money supplies, and many people are wondering how long it will be before a government bureaucrat does something so stupid that it starts another war or an economic collapse.  It looks like Prime Minister Abe may win the race to the bottom after all, but the economic shock won't stop there.  Freedom is fun, and peace is fun, but that's not what we have under the shadow of corruption and lies that have pervaded the global economies.

OP brianj Forum Pro • Posts: 14,657
Re: Is everyone here a professional now

rattymouse wrote:

Who says SLR's arent fun?

The only thing not fun about DPR is the incessant bigotry against SLR users.

I am sure they could be fun, and the only reason they crept into this thread is because it is most often DSLR owners who use the phrase 'when I am on a serious shoot', as if nothing else would be suitable.  But my question is, what is a serious shoot?

Brian

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OP brianj Forum Pro • Posts: 14,657
Re: What happened to fun?

ARShutterbug wrote:

You may be reading the wrong messages if you're not noticing the bulk of the amateur and hobbyist photographers.  For me, of course, it was never about fun.  I wouldn't have continued doing photography if it was only for fun, because photography is expensive and risky.  Fooling around with the camera in your spare time doesn't get you far, but hard work and dedication does return results.

If you want to know where the fun in life went, start by looking at what the governments and central banking cartels have done to societies.  Millions of people in the developed nations are living by a few threads, savings are being depleted to keep up with living expenses, purchasing power is being lost to the inflation of the money supplies, and many people are wondering how long it will be before a government bureaucrat does something so stupid that it starts another war or an economic collapse.  It looks like Prime Minister Abe may win the race to the bottom after all, but the economic shock won't stop there.  Freedom is fun, and peace is fun, but that's not what we have under the shadow of corruption and lies that have pervaded the global economies.

I don't disagree with your last paragraph, but I also don't dwell on it, I am too busy taking photos and enjoying myself, not because they are the best photos around, but just because I like doing it.  It is nice to get better at what you do, but that isn't the most important thing to me, so long as I can still afford something to take photos with I am happy.

Brian

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(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: Is everyone here a professional now

brianj wrote:

rattymouse wrote:

Who says SLR's arent fun?

The only thing not fun about DPR is the incessant bigotry against SLR users.

I am sure they could be fun, and the only reason they crept into this thread is because it is most often DSLR owners who use the phrase 'when I am on a serious shoot', as if nothing else would be suitable.  But my question is, what is a serious shoot?

Brian

A serious shoot is different for every person.  There can be no universal answer to this.

What is serious to one person might be, could be a throw away session for another person.

It seems highly illogical to ask and expect a useful answer to this question.

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OP brianj Forum Pro • Posts: 14,657
Re: Is everyone here a professional now

rattymouse wrote:

brianj wrote:

rattymouse wrote:

Who says SLR's arent fun?

The only thing not fun about DPR is the incessant bigotry against SLR users.

I am sure they could be fun, and the only reason they crept into this thread is because it is most often DSLR owners who use the phrase 'when I am on a serious shoot', as if nothing else would be suitable.  But my question is, what is a serious shoot?

Brian

A serious shoot is different for every person.  There can be no universal answer to this.

What is serious to one person might be, could be a throw away session for another person.

It seems highly illogical to ask and expect a useful answer to this question.

Each time the statement is made, it is implying that only a DSLR could be used for a serious purpose, why do we need this shoved down our throats all the time.

Brian

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(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: What happened to fun?

ARShutterbug wrote:

You may be reading the wrong messages if you're not noticing the bulk of the amateur and hobbyist photographers.  For me, of course, it was never about fun.  I wouldn't have continued doing photography if it was only for fun, because photography is expensive and risky.

Fooling around with the camera in your spare time doesn't get you far, but hard work and dedication does return results.

Very true.  Photo Perzon is a classic example how putting zero effort into your photography gets you nowhere.

If you want to know where the fun in life went, start by looking at what the governments and central banking cartels have done to societies.  Millions of people in the developed nations are living by a few threads, savings are being depleted to keep up with living expenses, purchasing power is being lost to the inflation of the money supplies, and many people are wondering how long it will be before a government bureaucrat does something so stupid that it starts another war or an economic collapse.  It looks like Prime Minister Abe may win the race to the bottom after all, but the economic shock won't stop there.  Freedom is fun, and peace is fun, but that's not what we have under the shadow of corruption and lies that have pervaded the global economies.

Well said.  Abe has really gone off the deep end.  Him along with the mayor of Tokyo have done enormous damage to their country, and for what?   The last flare up of the island issue between Japan and China caused massive financial losses for Japanese companies.   Chinese people stopped buying so many Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans that all their manufacturing plans here had to be stopped for several months.  No one was buying.  Great news for GM as their sales skyrocketed.

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(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: Is everyone here a professional now
1

brianj wrote:

rattymouse wrote:

brianj wrote:

rattymouse wrote:

Who says SLR's arent fun?

The only thing not fun about DPR is the incessant bigotry against SLR users.

I am sure they could be fun, and the only reason they crept into this thread is because it is most often DSLR owners who use the phrase 'when I am on a serious shoot', as if nothing else would be suitable.  But my question is, what is a serious shoot?

Brian

A serious shoot is different for every person.  There can be no universal answer to this.

What is serious to one person might be, could be a throw away session for another person.

It seems highly illogical to ask and expect a useful answer to this question.

Each time the statement is made, it is implying that only a DSLR could be used for a serious purpose, why do we need this shoved down our throats all the time.

Brian

There are many shots that can only be made with a DSLR.  Without more information, one cannot speculate what exactly the situation you refer to is.  But there is no more versatile camera than the SLR so it is not at all unusual to need such versatility to get the shot.

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OP brianj Forum Pro • Posts: 14,657
Re: Is everyone here a professional now

rattymouse wrote:

brianj wrote:

rattymouse wrote:

brianj wrote:

rattymouse wrote:

Who says SLR's arent fun?

The only thing not fun about DPR is the incessant bigotry against SLR users.

I am sure they could be fun, and the only reason they crept into this thread is because it is most often DSLR owners who use the phrase 'when I am on a serious shoot', as if nothing else would be suitable.  But my question is, what is a serious shoot?

Brian

A serious shoot is different for every person.  There can be no universal answer to this.

What is serious to one person might be, could be a throw away session for another person.

It seems highly illogical to ask and expect a useful answer to this question.

Each time the statement is made, it is implying that only a DSLR could be used for a serious purpose, why do we need this shoved down our throats all the time.

Brian

There are many shots that can only be made with a DSLR.  Without more information, one cannot speculate what exactly the situation you refer to is.  But there is no more versatile camera than the SLR so it is not at all unusual to need such versatility to get the shot.

I'm glad cars don't have the same limitations as ordinary cameras, otherwise we would all have to drive a racing car to do serious driving.

Brian

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Rexgig0
Rexgig0 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,490
Re: Is everyone here a professional now

Well, actually, I bought a film P&S sometime in the early 2000s, shot one roll of film with it, then put it away. Several years later, my wife bought me an Olympus digital P&S, and after I nearly dropped it a few times, I put it away. I then tried a somewhat heftier Sony DSC-H20, and used it a few times, but photography was still not very fun.

Then, my wife, who is a forensic investigator for the medical examiner, let me handle her agency-issued Nikon D300s, with a zoom lens and SB-800 flash. Now, THIS was fun!

Soon, I was shooting with a pre-owned Canon XTi, then upraded to a 40D in about three months, and within another two months had a new 7D, which was the equivalent of my wife's D300s work camera, and had the weather-resistance I wanted, as by then I was shooting evidentiary images at work, which sometimes means shooting in the rain. (Yes, I did have to learn quickly!)  To be clear, however, I do not consider myself a "professional" photographer, as my salary did not increase when I acquired the new responsibility, though I do strive for high-quality images, and no P&S can easily do that for me.

Do I always want to haul a DSLR with me? Well, I did recently buy a Nikon A, which gives me a DSLR-sized APS-C sensor, a quite good 28mm-equivalent lens, and the ability to use pro-level Nikon Speedlights. My wife, however, claimed it, so I am saving for another.

I am interested in bird and wildlife photography, so the DSLR will still be a part of what I find FUN about photography. Life is good!

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Draek
Draek Senior Member • Posts: 2,028
Re: It's not about being a professional...
1

brianj wrote:

So everyone here isn't a professional, what you are saying is that many have become passionate.

That's one way to put it, yes.

Is the quest to become as passionate as your budget will allow?  I guess i am not passionate to such an extreme because I am not willing to sell my kidneys just to buy the lastest and greatest.

Well, that's one of my problems with the average DPR forum-goer; the idea that buying "the latest and greatest" is a significant part of one's development as a photographer.

No, a proper amateur would learn about photography, seek out the work of other photographers (famous or otherwise) as to learn about their vision and styles, develop their own then seek to make it stand alongside that of the photographers he's seen. "The latest and greatest"? hah! as if buying a Stradivarius made you a brilliant violinist; it just puts your mistakes in sharper relief.

I get a lot of fun from just trying to get the most out of any equipment, it could just be an old second hand camera, like the fellow who recently bought a G5 just because he always wanted one.  But what ever it is I am passionate about trying to get it to work the way I want.

I'd suggest becoming passionate about photography itself, as above; mastering gear is quite trivial by comparison. In fact, after the fifth one or so you can do it in about a day without even bothering with the manual.

I mean anyone could re-morgage the house and go out and buy the best and say hey look what this gear can do.  But what enjoyment would that be, its no accumplishment by the photographer.  Someone demonstrated how some camera could produce a beautiful image at ISO54000, so what.

Well... yes. But, again, do not confuse being a gearhead with being serious about photography, and neither requires one to derive monetary value from photography per se and thus being a professional.

The origin of your confusion seems to be the fact that many amateurs do, in fact, keep separate cameras for their "serious" photos (ie, for when they wish to create something meaningful instead of a random snap). But then that's to be expected given that cameras are all different and some will work better than others at certain situations and someone who is serious about their art will choose a better tool for it if available, but that needs not be necessarily a more expensive one—if I'm serious about street photography I'd pull out my compact instead of my SLR because its design and performance is much better suited for it, even if the average gearhead would find the thought repulsive since the SLR's much larger sensor has vastly superior SNR figures to its name.

Now, could I do street photography with the SLR? sure. I could shoot nature photos with the compact, as well. But why would I, if I have the means for a better tool? well, a Nikon D4 and a Leica M would probably be better than my Sony A390 and Samsung EX1, but then I don'thave the means for them no biggie, though; much as how your compositions don't improve by buying a better piano or your worth as an athlete by getting better shoes, their lack only makes my life slightly less efficient, it does not affect the quality of my output.

Well, or "would"; in truth I stopped being a true amateur years ago, and am now nothing but a bored enthusiast who knows a bit more than average due to his past. I am now the guy who moves a meter to the side to take a photo instead of the guy who spends an hour moving furniture around just so it's all "just perfect" for his portrait—but it's because I once was that guy that I still hold a deep respect for those who are serious about their photography in spite (or perhaps moreso because) they don't make a single cent from it.

I am trying to work out why I am becoming a dinosaur and out of step here.

I don't think you're becoming a dinosaur, but I do think you're having quite a problematic misunderstanding.

You know, the most serious photographer I've met started out with just a $100 Sony digicam, and yet her output seldom failed to amaze me. Even today she uses a mere Canon 40D with a bunch of cheap prime lenses, but the effort she puts into her photos—and the brilliance that can be seen within them—is second to none. Well, she's a professional now, but even as an amateur she could hardly be put on the same level as the happy snappers with Nikon D800s and Canon 5Ds you see 'round these parts; there's a very tangible difference between a real amateur and an old gearhead and it's one that has absolutely nothing to do with money, either spent or acquired.

TL;DR: amateurs are just as serious as professionals, but don't confuse either with gearheads; art does not depend on the tools you use.

Brian

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(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: Is everyone here a professional now

brianj wrote:


There are many shots that can only be made with a DSLR.  Without more information, one cannot speculate what exactly the situation you refer to is.  But there is no more versatile camera than the SLR so it is not at all unusual to need such versatility to get the shot.

I'm glad cars don't have the same limitations as ordinary cameras, otherwise we would all have to drive a racing car to do serious driving.

Brian

It all depends on what you like to do with your car.  If it is to get from point A to point B, then any old heap will get you there.  But if you enjoy running up the gears, taking corers well above the recommended speed limit, then you need a performance vehicle.

It's really not different at all from cameras.  Some people want performance, others dont need it.  I really cant fathom why you are so prejudiced against people who like performance from their machines.

I personally always buy a car that has really good handling.  On day 1 I remove the stock tires and put on high performance tires.

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MoreorLess Veteran Member • Posts: 4,585
Re: What happened to fun?

ARShutterbug wrote:

You may be reading the wrong messages if you're not noticing the bulk of the amateur and hobbyist photographers.  For me, of course, it was never about fun.  I wouldn't have continued doing photography if it was only for fun, because photography is expensive and risky.  Fooling around with the camera in your spare time doesn't get you far, but hard work and dedication does return results.

I'd say the problem is for some people "fun = easy".

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: It's not about being a professional...

brianj wrote:

Draek wrote:

...it's simply putting more thought into what you do. Like the difference between writing a forum post and writing a short novel; even if you don't publish it, or if you do but give it away for free online, there's still orders of magnitude of difference in effort and care. It's the difference between being an amateur in the true sense of the word, someone dedicated to the art itself, and a bored person looking for a way to kill time.

Not to offend the latter, of course—I treat drawing the same way, but I'm not about to suggest people who're serious about it (professional or otherwise) to drop Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop and replace it with the smartphone app I use whose name I can't remember.

So everyone here isn't a professional, what you are saying is that many have become passionate.

Is the quest to become as passionate as your budget will allow?  I guess i am not passionate to such an extreme because I am not willing to sell my kidneys just to buy the lastest and greatest.

I dont see any evidence that anyone is selling the their kidney's or risking their financial life to buy camera equipment.  It just sounds like you are sour at your economic position.  People buying expensive equipment is not indicative of their poor finances.

I get a lot of fun from just trying to get the most out of any equipment, it could just be an old second hand camera, like the fellow who recently bought a G5 just because he always wanted one.  But what ever it is I am passionate about trying to get it to work the way I want.

I mean anyone could re-morgage the house and go out and buy the best and say hey look what this gear can do.

If they have no talent, their expensive gear will not help them.

But what enjoyment would that be, its no accumplishment by the photographer.  Someone demonstrated how some camera could produce a beautiful image at ISO54000, so what.

I am trying to work out why I am becoming a dinosaur and out of step here.

You are a dinosaur?  I shoot with a Nikon FM2 now with a manual focus 50mm lens.  Beat that.

Brian

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OP brianj Forum Pro • Posts: 14,657
Re: It's not about being a professional...

rattymouse wrote:

brianj wrote:

Draek wrote:

...it's simply putting more thought into what you do. Like the difference between writing a forum post and writing a short novel; even if you don't publish it, or if you do but give it away for free online, there's still orders of magnitude of difference in effort and care. It's the difference between being an amateur in the true sense of the word, someone dedicated to the art itself, and a bored person looking for a way to kill time.

Not to offend the latter, of course—I treat drawing the same way, but I'm not about to suggest people who're serious about it (professional or otherwise) to drop Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop and replace it with the smartphone app I use whose name I can't remember.

So everyone here isn't a professional, what you are saying is that many have become passionate.

Is the quest to become as passionate as your budget will allow?  I guess i am not passionate to such an extreme because I am not willing to sell my kidneys just to buy the lastest and greatest.

I dont see any evidence that anyone is selling the their kidney's or risking their financial life to buy camera equipment.  It just sounds like you are sour at your economic position.  People buying expensive equipment is not indicative of their poor finances.

I could afford any camera I wanted, that is not the issue, others have defined it better than I can, it is about the skill of the user to make the best of what they use.

I get a lot of fun from just trying to get the most out of any equipment, it could just be an old second hand camera, like the fellow who recently bought a G5 just because he always wanted one.  But what ever it is I am passionate about trying to get it to work the way I want.

I mean anyone could re-morgage the house and go out and buy the best and say hey look what this gear can do.

If they have no talent, their expensive gear will not help them.

agreed.

But what enjoyment would that be, its no accumplishment by the photographer.  Someone demonstrated how some camera could produce a beautiful image at ISO54000, so what.

I am trying to work out why I am becoming a dinosaur and out of step here.

You are a dinosaur?  I shoot with a Nikon FM2 now with a manual focus 50mm lens.  Beat that.

I would be more interested in the photos you took with it than the equipment itself.

Brian

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