D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

Started May 29, 2013 | Discussions
(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,985
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?
1

FtoDin5min wrote:

WIMorrison wrote:

You have quoted completely out of context and fail to mention that this story is completely uncorroborated and had never been heard of by any of the UK based forum posters. something of this severity would have been all over the national press and TV reports yet nothing was mentioned anywhere.

i can unsure you that London is much safer than many cities, people do not run around with guns, they don't run around with knives, nor are people in London or UK out to rob and fleece tourists.

i have personally wandered round most areas of London, often at night and always with expensive camera gear and never  been so much as questioned by anyone.

The OP may want to look at my website where he can see some classic  tourist of London shots to consider.

-- hide signature --

Iain Morrison LRPS CPAGB
wimorrison.co.uk

so this did not happen? You have no clue what you are talking about. You have never heard of violent car jacking in the press in London??????

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-141088/Teenager-gets-life-brutal-carjack-murder.html

Carjacking was very frequent but slowed down recently because of security systems in cars. The rest of violent attacks are still extremely frequent. Just Google them or read the press you so much like to refer to to support your point.

I'll tell you something else that will surprise you: not everything makes the press as well (luckily).

But whatever, I will know what to make of your thinking process next time it is relevant to some of your posts...

Anyway, with regards to the OP's question, my personal experience in London is that I feel rather safe if I walk in touristic areas carrying cameras or such things. Nonetheless I feel significantly more at risk when walking in residential areas with less visible yet valuable items. And the problem is that when this risk realizes itself in London it usually is violent.

-- hide signature --

FTD5

With all due respect, I am personally more inclined to credit opinions regarding London from London residents than from someone such as yourself who lists a residence in Papua New Guinea  

Doesn't mean I'm right, I'm just saying  

-
One day long ago, a sorcerer and a warrior did battle, as such things were commonplace in that age. Sometimes the sorcerer won, and the sum value of human abilities was improved some trifling amount. Sometimes the warrior won, and again the human race improved by some insignificant amount, for a sorcerer who can't defeat one miserable warrior is a poor sorcerer indeed.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,985
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

BackInTheGame wrote:

Good point.  Go to New Orleans or Memphis or San Antonio instead.  At least you can go there packing.  If they can get my D800e before my Sig gets them, more power to them.

-- hide signature --

Roy

Actually know a guy who had somebody try just this in San Antonio.  My friend pushed him backward into the river walk and walked away.  

-- hide signature --

One day long ago, a sorcerer and a warrior did battle, as such things were commonplace in that age. Sometimes the sorcerer won, and the sum value of human abilities was improved some trifling amount. Sometimes the warrior won, and again the human race improved by some insignificant amount, for a sorcerer who can't defeat one miserable warrior is a poor sorcerer indeed.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,985
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

Dinegbatty wrote:

Ihere that london is filled wirh thieves

So is the US Senate

-- hide signature --

One day long ago, a sorcerer and a warrior did battle, as such things were commonplace in that age. Sometimes the sorcerer won, and the sum value of human abilities was improved some trifling amount. Sometimes the warrior won, and again the human race improved by some insignificant amount, for a sorcerer who can't defeat one miserable warrior is a poor sorcerer indeed.

FtoDin5min Regular Member • Posts: 407
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?
1

coronawithlime wrote:

With all due respect, I am personally more inclined to credit opinions regarding London from London residents than from someone such as yourself who lists a residence in Papua New Guinea  

Doesn't mean I'm right, I'm just saying  

All things being equal, this is a fair comment

BUT things are not equal unfortunately. This 'London' guy has decided that I am a liar because he reads the press, and on the assumed basis that he lives in London. I guess that makes him right. He must be smart, I mean really smart, some serious brainpower.

And even more amazingly, he knows my life better than me because my name (that he does not know) was not in the headlines of the press (that he obviously does not fully read).

I can't remember what I had for breakfast, do you think I should ask him? He must know for sure, no?

Obviously noone here can Google and realize that violent carjackings are frequent in London (although they have really reduced in the last few years due to better security systems in cars) and that very violent muggings are also very frequent (still). Don't Google please, I may be proven right.

But to come back on your comment about who to give more credit to, based on the fact that this guy can draw conclusions about whether facts happened in my life or not based on this type of rationale, I would give more credit to myself. It would really be painful to me to give credit to such an intellectually challenged person on the basis of his flawed rationale (although I would gladly credit him for many other aspects of his personality that I am sure exceed his brain capabilities)

But maybe you are right, where he states he lives compared to where I state I live is a more important factor about who to give credit to.

In any case, I was volunteering to share my experience of London (and that of relatives or close friends) because a fellow member of this forum kindly asked us to share experience. I am not here to invent stories for pleasure nor am I here to waste time justifying to this idiot that these things happened…

-- hide signature --

FTD5

 FtoDin5min's gear list:FtoDin5min's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G +6 more
Gabriele Sartori Veteran Member • Posts: 4,279
London? You must be kidding right? (nt)
-- hide signature --

Regards
Gabriele
California, CA

 Gabriele Sartori's gear list:Gabriele Sartori's gear list
Leica D-Lux (Typ 109) Nikon D800E Leica M Typ 240 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 Nikon 1 J1 +2 more
PaulBearer Senior Member • Posts: 1,719
It was a few years back, but I never felt unsafe in London

Spent two weeks there with a new D2x, with a 17-55 and a Nikon strap boldly advertising the model, and never once felt there was any risk of theft.

I found it to be a very safe city, but generally was in busy, crowded areas.  It would, however, never occur to me to go on a trip to a major city without my D800 or D4 hanging around my neck.  Like the other person said, I'd rather have the camera out doing its job, than sitting home taking pictures of my cat.

Besides, I have full risk insurance on my gear, so if it disappears, is stolen, or I drop it off the side of a boat, the insurance company buys me a new one.  Managed risk.

 PaulBearer's gear list:PaulBearer's gear list
Nikon D810 Sony a6500 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6G ED VR +4 more
msjhaffey Senior Member • Posts: 1,454
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?
1

The concern is less with what you said about yourself and more with the way you imply this is typical of London.

I don't know what happened to you but I do know London is as safe as pretty much any major western city, and safer than many.

-- hide signature --

Sean
www.seanhaffey.co.uk

 msjhaffey's gear list:msjhaffey's gear list
Nikon D700 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S 70-200mm F2.8E FL ED VR
MostlyHarmless Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

msjhaffey wrote:

The concern is less with what you said about yourself and more with the way you imply this is typical of London.

I don't know what happened to you but I do know London is as safe as pretty much any major western city, and safer than many.

Exactly - along with similar statements about Paris (and France generally). The events described *could* have happened (though I would be very surprised that a carjacking involving kidnapping and attempted murder of foreign visitors would stay out of the media) - but the characterisation of London (and France) is just unreconcilable with reality.

Tord S Eriksson
Tord S Eriksson Veteran Member • Posts: 9,862
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

I would recommend to use another camera, less conspicuous camera, if visiting the poorer areas, and late at night, just like it is at home, I bet! Never ever been robbed while living in London, but then I haven't been out late at night with a D800E!

-- hide signature --

tord (at) mindless (dot) com
Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Canon & Pentax user/owner

 Tord S Eriksson's gear list:Tord S Eriksson's gear list
Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom Ricoh GR Nikon 1 V1 Nikon D600 Nikon 1 V2 +25 more
FtoDin5min Regular Member • Posts: 407
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

MostlyHarmless wrote:

msjhaffey wrote:

The concern is less with what you said about yourself and more with the way you imply this is typical of London.

I don't know what happened to you but I do know London is as safe as pretty much any major western city, and safer than many.

Exactly - along with similar statements about Paris (and France generally). The events described *could* have happened (though I would be very surprised that a carjacking involving kidnapping and attempted murder of foreign visitors would stay out of the media) - but the characterisation of London (and France) is just unreconcilable with reality.

just to make sure there is no confusion: I was carjacked and in a different incident my wife had the robbery/hostage situation. A few of our friends got violently mugged. London has become dangerous in that sense. They just beat you up just to steal almost nothing. But as a tourist walking in touristic places you are probably fine.

About France, it has become full of pickpockets, not a little: a lot. This is a fact too. As a tourist looking like one with a camera and walking in touristic places, I bet you at least one of these pickpockets will make at least one approach at you over a 3/4 days period. The nice thing about it is that it is rarely violent  Another fact in the last couple of years: big numbers of tourists driving nice cars or wearing visible valuables get followed in the cars and to their homes to be robbed there (this happens a lot during the summer in the nice places of the south).

I am not trying to characterize, but this happens and it happens more and more. I love London and I love France, and these evolutions are just disgusting. If you don't know about it because it is not reported, not much I can do about it apart from suggesting that you really get informed if you care.

Best,

-- hide signature --

FTD5

 FtoDin5min's gear list:FtoDin5min's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G +6 more
Najinsky Veteran Member • Posts: 5,739
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

I see from some responses there's a differing of opinion about the safety of London. Crime stats are well reported and easily accessible:

For example there were 1934 personal thefts  around the Trafalgar Square area in April 2013. Click the link to see the Map.

While the numbers by themselves can be alarming, there are many other factors to bare in minds.

Obviously tourists are not the only victims, and the number of people moving through London each month is huge, with around 1.5M tourists each month and substantially more locals than that. So percentage-wise the odds are heavily in your favour for an incident free trip.

Also, not all thefts are real, I don't have figures but I know from doing some work with an Insurance company in London that they estimate a large number of theft reports are bogus and made to obtain an incident number to support (fraudulent) insurance claims. This will bring down the true theft figures, again tipping the odds more in your favour.

Finally, some people are more careless than others and can make themselves easy targets. That isn't to say they deserve it, but they may attract it.

Keeping valuables in secure pockets, cameras in your hand and/or tethered with a strap, not allowing yourself to be distracted, and taking other sensible precautions for a large city, should keep the vast majority of people safe and secure. Certainly to the point where you'd be very very unfortunate to be a victim, and for me to the point I hardly give it a moments thought. The precautions have become second nature.

A read through the virtual tourist site  will alert you to the most common problems and scams so you can decide on appropriate precautions.

Coincidentally, I was last in London 2 weeks ago and thought I'd become a victim.

I was making my way from Stratford to Gatwick with a rucksack on my back. At Stratford the rucksack was secure. I know this for certain because I checked my document wallet to make sure I had my passport, put it into the back section of the rucksack, on top of my cable and chargers bag, and then fully closed the zip.

I boarded the Central Line, changed at Oxford Circus for the Victoria line to Victoria Station and from there the Gatwick Express to catch my flight.

Once on the Gatwick Express, I took off the rucksack and noticed with some concern that the back section of my rucksack had been fully unzipped. My heart sank when I looked in the open pocket and saw no sign of the document wallet. It was way too big not to notice if it had slipped down the side of the bag of chargers, so I knew it was gone.

I started contemplating how I was going to travel back home without the passport. Technically it's a Domestic flight and I don't need a passport to travel, but not being a driver or serviceman, it's the only form of Photo ID I have, and Photo ID is a mandatory requirement. I keep a scan of my passport on my phone, my iPad and Computer, I obviously have my signature and the credit card used to book the flight so I'm thinking I'll be able to exaplain the situation to the airline and perhaps be allowed to travel. Once back home I can sort out a new passport, so I began to relax a little.

I then turned my attention to see if anything else had gone, I don't keep anything valuable in that section for just this reason. It's slightly ironic that I used to keep my passport in a secure pocket in my shorts, but this meant the passport got tatty and Immigration warned me that if it got too tatty they wouldn't accept it, which it why I'd started keeping it in the document wallet. So, I pulled out the bag of Cables and Chargers and to my surprise, sitting fully underneath it was the document wallet!

I have no idea how it got there. What is virtually certain is that somebody unzipped the back section while I was wearing it. There's no way it could unzip itself, even when being jostled. So this most likely happened either while waiting for the Victoria Line train at Oxford Circus, or on the ascent from the Victoria line tube up to the rail station. These are the two times I was standing up with the rucksack on my back while being constantly jostled and bumped by so many people that I didn't really pay any attention to my rucksack being knocked.

But what I can't figure out is how the document wallet ended up under the cable bag. It's almost like whoever opened the zip, pulled out the wallet and cable bag, realised there was no money or anything of value to them, and then put them back, but in reverse order with the cable bag on top of the document wallet. But that seems like a whole order of magnitude more unlikely than being a theft victim in the first place. Tho still more likely than pixies.

-Najinsky

Phil_L Veteran Member • Posts: 3,145
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

Tord S Eriksson wrote:

I would recommend to use another camera, less conspicuous camera, if visiting the poorer areas, and late at night, just like it is at home, I bet! Never ever been robbed while living in London, but then I haven't been out late at night with a D800E!

I don't think thieves would know the difference between a D800 and any other camera.

I have spent a lot of time in London and never felt threatened.

OTOH didn't visit dicey areas, which would apply to any large city.

-- hide signature --

Phil_L

 Phil_L's gear list:Phil_L's gear list
Nikon D500 Phase One Capture One Pro
olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,289
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

quadraticadder wrote:

Hello all.  I'm going on a vacation to London this summer, and I'm worried about taking my D800e with 24-70 kit because of the chance that it will get stolen.  Am I too worried?  Should I leave it home and take a lesser kit (d90 with 24-200 VR, or gasp! a point and shooter?).  I'd leave it around my neck at all times if I took the d800e, and have it insured, but it will stick out like a massive temptation to pick pockets.  I've heard stories of thieves unlatching the lenses, etc.  Opinions?

Why would the risks of being something stolen be higher in London than it is wherever you live? Behave like a normal human being and you have no problems. There are plenty people with DSLRs in London so why do you think you would be so special that you would be the number 1 target of all thieves?

I never hesitate to take my best camera with me, so far the D800 has been to Vienna, Budapest, Stockholm, Lund (I live outside Lund) and many other places. In two weeks time I'll be in Germany for a week holiday and the week after in Dublin for a four days business trip, a few weeks after that I'll be in Scotland for a two weeks holiday. The D800 will be with me on those four trips ahead of me. The only reason to leave the D800 at home is if you want to travel light, but if weight is not an issue then why hesitate?

MostlyHarmless Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?
1

FtoDin5min wrote:

MostlyHarmless wrote:

msjhaffey wrote:

The concern is less with what you said about yourself and more with the way you imply this is typical of London.

I don't know what happened to you but I do know London is as safe as pretty much any major western city, and safer than many.

Exactly - along with similar statements about Paris (and France generally). The events described *could* have happened (though I would be very surprised that a carjacking involving kidnapping and attempted murder of foreign visitors would stay out of the media) - but the characterisation of London (and France) is just unreconcilable with reality.

just to make sure there is no confusion: I was carjacked and in a different incident my wife had the robbery/hostage situation. A few of our friends got violently mugged. London has become dangerous in that sense. They just beat you up just to steal almost nothing. But as a tourist walking in touristic places you are probably fine.

Two violent and newsworthy crimes: you seem to be the unluckiest person - and have the unluckiest friends -  I've come across 

About France, it has become full of pickpockets, not a little: a lot. This is a fact too. As a tourist looking like one with a camera and walking in touristic places, I bet you at least one of these pickpockets will make at least one approach at you over a 3/4 days period.

Never have been - in Paris or Toulouse.

I am not trying to characterize, but this happens and it happens more and more.

Crime in the UK and London (and as I understand it across much of the Western & developed world) is falling. At worst, in some categories, it's stable. So no, it doesn't happen more and more. (And forgive me for putting more trust in the published stats than anecdotes.)

I'm working now for some time, and won't have the opportunity to read or respond - and doubt I'll be bothered by the time I come back - so, to get back to the OP's original question: personally, I'd prefer to skip the 24-70 range in London (or any big city) and go with something either wider or longer (preferably both). But that's just me I guess - it's all down to style. If you take the same common-sense attitude you'd take at home you're very unlikely to be the victim of crime; and even less likely to be the victim of violent crime (let alone twice...)

PHXAZCRAIG
PHXAZCRAIG Forum Pro • Posts: 13,970
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

Stay out of seedy areas and you'll generally be fine in any city.

If you are worried, go buy some insurance for your gear.   Then just go use it like the tool it is.

I've taken my DSLR's to many foreign cities and towns.   So far no problems at all.  Only time I had a camera stolen was when my wife left a point-n-shoot on the seat of our motorcycle and forgot it.  Wasn't there the next morning.

Places I'd worry:

-any place in Rome (or elsewhere) where there are a bunch of tourists and a bunch of gypsies in the same place.

-sidewalk cafes (Lisbon was one place where a cafe proprietor warned me) where you should not leave your camera bag under your chair.  (Instead, put the strap around a chair leg to discourage snatch-n-run thieves)

-I'm not particularly worried, but I did find it interesting to hear about some thieves in Moscow who somehow quickly detach your lens from your camera and run off with it.

-any trains, subways or buses where you leave your gear bag a bit unattended.

-parking lots in Hawaii and Canyon de Shelly Arizona where you put gear in the trunk and then are off viewing scenery 1/4 mile or more away and out of site of the vehicle.

-- hide signature --

Craig
www.cjcphoto.net

 PHXAZCRAIG's gear list:PHXAZCRAIG's gear list
Nikon 1 V1 Nikon D200 Nikon D300 Nikon D700 Nikon D800E +37 more
JH1 Regular Member • Posts: 345
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

Yet again you are trying to make out that the UK and France are more dangerous than other places. This despite the fact that the evidence does not bear out your assertions and runs contrary to the greater experience of those of us familiar with both countries through having lived in them.

Other posters have pointed out that, had most of the extreme crimes you speak of actually occurred, they would be well documented in the press; they are not. Unless you want to extend your fabrication a step further and tell us that everything was hushed up because you're a foreign diplomat and the whole thing was embarassing I suggest you just give it up.

Finally, if you do ever visit these shores, where apparently tarring, flaying and crucifixion are but a heartbeat away, I suggest you heed this warning; use the word 'touristic' in public and us natives might reintroduce capital punishment and have you burned at the stake for causing offence to the English language.

FtoDin5min Regular Member • Posts: 407
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

JH1 wrote:

Yet again you are trying to make out that the UK and France are more dangerous than other places. This despite the fact that the evidence does not bear out your assertions and runs contrary to the greater experience of those of us familiar with both countries through having lived in them.

Other posters have pointed out that, had most of the extreme crimes you speak of actually occurred, they would be well documented in the press; they are not. Unless you want to extend your fabrication a step further and tell us that everything was hushed up because you're a foreign diplomat and the whole thing was embarassing I suggest you just give it up.

Finally, if you do ever visit these shores, where apparently tarring, flaying and crucifixion are but a heartbeat away, I suggest you heed this warning; use the word 'touristic' in public and us natives might reintroduce capital punishment and have you burned at the stake for causing offence to the English language.

Not sure if you are being funny or simply limited in your understanding abilities. In any case, it does not really matter. I'll make a last effort to try to help you understand: I did not say France and/or UK were more or less dangerous than other places, I just related my experiences there in a polite manner to a polite forum member who asked politely. I am sorry to have disturbed your idealistic views and promise I will never ever do it again. And if I ever do please do not tell me as I might just start crying.

I am also extremely sorry to have offended your eyes with such poor language skills. Should that ever happen again, please tell me and I shall offer you to continue in either hebrew, french or spanish where you should expect less mistakes from me. Which of these would be your preference?

And about capital punishment for causing offence to the english language; you are such a brilliant example of british culture, knowledge and intelligence that I am left with no other choice but to trust your good judgement on this one. You are making the Empire extremely proud. You shall be rewarded for your vigilance!

This is really becoming fun

Sorry matey, but I have to stop spending time responding to your stupid messages even though I am starting to enjoy it as I see it as a good comedy show. This is a forum dedicated to Nikon gear and I feel we are deviating and potentially annoying other respectful forum members. So let's just get back to Nikon FX talk while enjoying our fish and chips...

-- hide signature --

FTD5

 FtoDin5min's gear list:FtoDin5min's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G +6 more
olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,289
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

msjhaffey wrote:

I do know London is as safe as pretty much any major western city, and safer than many.

This is definitely true. I have been to London many times during the last 30 years and I must say, London, as opposed to many other major cities, has improved during those years. Not only in terms of safety, but also in terms of air quality and tourist friendliness. I think that the congestion charges, regardless if hated or loved by those who live in London, improved the quality of life a lot and it also reduced stress and stress related negative behavior also. I never felt unsafe in London but feel even safer today then say 20 years ago when you not only risked being mugged but also being killed by IRA terrorists.

FtoDin5min Regular Member • Posts: 407
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

olyflyer wrote:

msjhaffey wrote:

I do know London is as safe as pretty much any major western city, and safer than many.

This is definitely true. I have been to London many times during the last 30 years and I must say, London, as opposed to many other major cities, has improved during those years. Not only in terms of safety, but also in terms of air quality and tourist friendliness. I think that the congestion charges, regardless if hated or loved by those who live in London, improved the quality of life a lot and it also reduced stress and stress related negative behavior also. I never felt unsafe in London but feel even safer today then say 20 years ago when you not only risked being mugged but also being killed by IRA terrorists.

Definitely agree with the tourist/customer friendliness improvement!!!!!

-- hide signature --

FTD5

 FtoDin5min's gear list:FtoDin5min's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G +6 more
olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,289
Re: D800e with 24-70 on a vacation in London?

FtoDin5min wrote:

MostlyHarmless wrote:

msjhaffey wrote:

The concern is less with what you said about yourself and more with the way you imply this is typical of London.

I don't know what happened to you but I do know London is as safe as pretty much any major western city, and safer than many.

Exactly - along with similar statements about Paris (and France generally). The events described *could* have happened (though I would be very surprised that a carjacking involving kidnapping and attempted murder of foreign visitors would stay out of the media) - but the characterisation of London (and France) is just unreconcilable with reality.

just to make sure there is no confusion: I was carjacked and in a different incident my wife had the robbery/hostage situation. A few of our friends got violently mugged. London has become dangerous in that sense. They just beat you up just to steal almost nothing. But as a tourist walking in touristic places you are probably fine.

About France, it has become full of pickpockets, not a little: a lot. This is a fact too. As a tourist looking like one with a camera and walking in touristic places, I bet you at least one of these pickpockets will make at least one approach at you over a 3/4 days period. The nice thing about it is that it is rarely violent  Another fact in the last couple of years: big numbers of tourists driving nice cars or wearing visible valuables get followed in the cars and to their homes to be robbed there (this happens a lot during the summer in the nice places of the south).

I am not trying to characterize, but this happens and it happens more and more. I love London and I love France, and these evolutions are just disgusting. If you don't know about it because it is not reported, not much I can do about it apart from suggesting that you really get informed if you care.

You are joking, right?

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads