D800 and IR filters

Started May 29, 2013 | Questions
rfeuer Regular Member • Posts: 308
D800 and IR filters

I have the D800 and want to do IR photo's.  I just want to use IR for B&W pictures only would he Hoya r72 be the best choice for B&W.

Thanks.

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 rfeuer's gear list:rfeuer's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II Adobe Photoshop CS6 extended +5 more
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mallbuedel
mallbuedel Contributing Member • Posts: 921
Re: D800 and IR filters

I think a filter around 700 nm is the best compromise. You have to do pp anyway. Here's an interesting article in english language on it:

http://www.bythom.com/infrared.htm

OP rfeuer Regular Member • Posts: 308
Re: D800 and IR filters

mallbuedel wrote:

I think a filter around 700 nm is the best compromise. You have to do pp anyway. Here's an interesting article in english language on it:

http://www.bythom.com/infrared.htm

Thanks for helping, now waiting for B&H or Adorama to get them back in stock.

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It's not the equipment, it's your eye that matters most

 rfeuer's gear list:rfeuer's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II Adobe Photoshop CS6 extended +5 more
John4 Contributing Member • Posts: 801
Re: D800 and IR filters

rfeuer wrote:

I have the D800 and want to do IR photo's.  I just want to use IR for B&W pictures only would he Hoya r72 be the best choice for B&W.

Two things:

1.  You may not get good IR results from the D800.  Keep in mind that the sensor on digital cameras generally has an IR filter which passes visible but *blocks* IR.  As cameras have matured, the effectiveness of this filter has generally improved.  To this camera you want to add an external filter which passes IR but blocks visible light.  Thus there is sort of a battle of the filters.  If both filters are effective you have very long exposures.  If the built-in sensor filter is more effective, i.e., the ratio of IR passed to visible passed is less than the reverse factor for the supplementary filter, it won't work.  It may be better to use an older model with a less-effective IR filter.  I've been using a D70 with OK results and just now have had it converted to full-time IR imaging by having the built-in IR blocking filter replaced with an IR-pass visible blocking filter.

2.  You need to do some research, as the results you get are dependent on the filter you use.  The R72 is a popular choice but it does pass a little visible.  Using this fact is what allows R72 images to be post-processed into images with the pale blue sky.  You may have seen such images.  Although interesting they aren't B&W, which is what you said was your goal.  Of course you don't have to do this kind of PP, but the IR effect of the R72 is a little less dramatic than images taken with a deeper IR filter which passes *no* visible.  IMO.  See the Lifepixel site for more info on a dedicated conversion and how their various filters render a scene.

Regards, John

mallbuedel
mallbuedel Contributing Member • Posts: 921
Re: D800 and IR filters

John4 wrote:

rfeuer wrote:

I have the D800 and want to do IR photo's.  I just want to use IR for B&W pictures only would he Hoya r72 be the best choice for B&W.

Two things:

1.  You may not get good IR results from the D800.

There's a quick and easy method to check wether the camera is suitable for IR Photography: Take a picture of the IR-diode of a remote control while the command button is hit. The resulting photo should display aan alit diode.

2.  You need to do some research, as the results you get are dependent on the filter you use.  The R72 is a popular choice but it does pass a little visible.  Using this fact is what allows R72 images to be post-processed into images with the pale blue sky.  You may have seen such images.  Although interesting they aren't B&W, which is what you said was your goal.  Of course you don't have to do this kind of PP, but the IR effect of the R72 is a little less dramatic than images taken with a deeper IR filter which passes *no* visible.  IMO.  See the Lifepixel site for more info on a dedicated conversion and how their various filters render a scene.

You are right, but you can achieve "dramatic" shots in pure b&w with the R72 too by just desaturatiing the colored areas, the yellowish sky in this shot :

John4 Contributing Member • Posts: 801
Re: D800 and IR filters

mallbuedel wrote:

John4 wrote:

rfeuer wrote:

I have the D800 and want to do IR photo's.  I just want to use IR for B&W pictures only would he Hoya r72 be the best choice for B&W.

Two things:

1.  You may not get good IR results from the D800.

There's a quick and easy method to check wether the camera is suitable for IR Photography: Take a picture of the IR-diode of a remote control while the command button is hit. The resulting photo should display aan alit diode.

2.  You need to do some research, as the results you get are dependent on the filter you use.  The R72 is a popular choice but it does pass a little visible.  Using this fact is what allows R72 images to be post-processed into images with the pale blue sky.  You may have seen such images.  Although interesting they aren't B&W, which is what you said was your goal.  Of course you don't have to do this kind of PP, but the IR effect of the R72 is a little less dramatic than images taken with a deeper IR filter which passes *no* visible.  IMO.  See the Lifepixel site for more info on a dedicated conversion and how their various filters render a scene.

You are right, but you can achieve "dramatic" shots in pure b&w with the R72 too by just desaturatiing the colored areas, the yellowish sky in this shot :

You are right about desaturating.  However I have used both and prefer a longer wavelength cutoff for pure B&W IR images.  That is, of course just my opinion.  The whites are a little whiter and better defined, the sky a little more contrasty and textured.  Not a lot, a little.  B+W makes one, I don't remember the number offhand.  When I decided on a dedicated conversion of my D70 I opted to use the 830 nm cutoff filter offered by Lifepixel rather than the standard 720 nm, and have been pleased with the choice.  For me, the choice was slightly improved B&W IR images with the sacrifice of being able to do the faux color effects.

You are right, too, about testing the IR response of a camera.  But there is more to it.  The real issue, it seems to me, is the ratio of IR/visible transmitted by the sensor filter and the same ratio for the supplementary filter.  The product of these two ratios is the relative amounts of IR and visible reaching the sensor.  It has to favor IR for the combo to work.  (i.e., even if camera responds to TV controller, if first ratio = 1/50 and second = 50/1, product is 1/1 meaning equal amounts of IR and visible reach sensor, not satisfactory.  Since we don't know one ratio (camera), we have to go by what others who have tried have said. One article says

"In general, the newer your Nikon DSLR is, the less likely it is suited to near infrared work; Nikon keeps tweaking the filter over the sensor to bar more and more near infrared, which extends exposures longer and longer with external filters (the solution is to have a camera converted to near infrared only--see right side bar).

http://bythom.com/infrared.htm

mallbuedel
mallbuedel Contributing Member • Posts: 921
Re: D800 and IR filters

Grey is al theory (Goethe).  I would really like to see a photo ooc with a filter around 800 nm.

Kevin P Kitching
Kevin P Kitching Senior Member • Posts: 2,237
Re: D800 and IR filters

Two images from D70 converted to IR.

Camera set to custom white balance from Gretag Grey card & the raw image desaturated in Lightroom & resized.

IR Profile for Lightroom created in Raw Profile Editor (Adobe).

The results are far better than using a D2H with a 950 filter on lens.  With the D70 I can even use a fisheye!

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Kevin P Kitching

 Kevin P Kitching's gear list:Kevin P Kitching's gear list
Nikon D3 Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM | S Nikon Coolpix P7100 Fujifilm X20 Nikon D70 +24 more
mallbuedel
mallbuedel Contributing Member • Posts: 921
Re: D800 and IR filters

Impressive pictures, Would  you please upload one of them ooc?!

Kevin P Kitching
Kevin P Kitching Senior Member • Posts: 2,237
Re: D800 and IR filters

One of the original raw images?

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Kevin P Kitching

 Kevin P Kitching's gear list:Kevin P Kitching's gear list
Nikon D3 Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM | S Nikon Coolpix P7100 Fujifilm X20 Nikon D70 +24 more
mallbuedel
mallbuedel Contributing Member • Posts: 921
Re: D800 and IR filters

Kevin P Kitching wrote:

One of the original raw images?

Yes please!

My cam is a Nikon P7100 with a Hoya R72 mounted.

I have never set WB from a grey card, but shot my first IR pictures with automatic WB. This resulted in red/margenta tiinted pictures. I now set WB form sunlit green grass with the effect that the pictures have almost no color cast, just the (blue) sky is often a bit yellowish.

I did a test by shooting in RAW the same scenery with automatic WB, and then again immediately after with my grass preset. I converted them in DxO to B&W, and found out that the grass WB preset produced richer tones and there were much more details.

That's why I'm interested in having a look at your original picture before you desaturated it.

Thanks, Karl

Kevin P Kitching
Kevin P Kitching Senior Member • Posts: 2,237
Re: D800 and IR filters

Hi,

Unfortunately, The DPReview upload tool doesn't appear to allow raw NEF files.

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Kevin P Kitching

 Kevin P Kitching's gear list:Kevin P Kitching's gear list
Nikon D3 Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM | S Nikon Coolpix P7100 Fujifilm X20 Nikon D70 +24 more
mallbuedel
mallbuedel Contributing Member • Posts: 921
Re: D800 and IR filters

Kevin P Kitching wrote:

Hi,

Unfortunately, The DPReview upload tool doesn't appear to allow raw NEF files.

I know.. What I had in mind was the Nef file converted into jpeg without pp. I asked for this to try my own pp means to chieve similar results.

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