DP3M vs NEX 7

Started May 27, 2013 | Discussions
Jim Funston Senior Member • Posts: 1,698
Re: Wide angles and NEX don't mix ;-)

nick_webster wrote:

I am aware of the problems with legacy wide angles and NEXes (?) particularly the 7. I tend not to use wide angles much and go for "normal"/ longer lenses which is why I have the 3M not the 1M

I have 3 batteries, but I'd prefer not to have had to buy them and carry them then change them every 50 shots or so. I also like the grip as it means I can carry the camera with a couple of fingers hooked over the grip letting it hang down. With the DP I have to cradle it to stop it swinging from the wrist strap which I find a bit uncomfortable after a while, but obviously that's a personal thing.

The lack of an articulating LCD or option for an EVF was my main point to the thread. How is it that Sony can fit both of those into the NEX 7 which has the same size body as the DPs ?

Nick

The grip is easily fixed with a Franiec or RRS grip.... I have Richards grip and it really helped but recently I am carrying my DP2m affixed onto a Nodal Ninja 3 mounted atop a leveler on a Bogen tripod so any grip has become a non-issue

Articulating LCD would be nice no doubt but I installed a articulating mirrored device to sort of fix that (sort of ) The EVF is not a biggy for me as I generally shot NEX's in a waist level position like I did my old medium format TLR's using the articulating LCD's. Even when I bought the N7 the EVF and hotshoe were both non-issues for me as I wanted the 24mp resolution it offered me the most. When I need to fine tune my manual focus I just use my 3" Hoodman. I don't think I have ever used the popup flash or mounted a flash on my N7 since I got it and I got it soon after release. My N5 and N7 were my lightweight portable scenic tools just like my DP2m is now. If they offered a EVF for the DP2m I would probably buy it but rarely use it and keep in in my filter bag with its extra batteries, Hoodman, and CBL

nick_webster
OP nick_webster Veteran Member • Posts: 7,623
Red on red,

The Sigma has the distinct advantage of having 15M effective red pixies, the NEX only has 6MP. This is the Foveon advantage - in areas of similar colours, eg foliage or brickwork, it can give more detail, but in other scenes the advantage is less clear cut.

I've always siad that I prefer the DPs output over the NEX. I have actually gone out and spent my own money on one ( unlike some on here who I suspect get freebies or "discounts" from Sigma ).

I just want Sigma to put more useful features in their cameras. If Sony can package an articulating LCD and EVF into a body the same size as the DP, why can't Sigma ? Interchangeable lenses would be the icing on the cake, but those 2 features would really make taking some photos a lot easier.

Nick

jstop Regular Member • Posts: 209
Re: Quick and dirty comparison

Quick question, is the Sigma crop really untouched? Because it looks like it has sharpening artifacts.

SandyF Forum Pro • Posts: 14,941
Re: some differences visible

I see a fair amount of increased detail in the Sigma shot on the pilings in the water and in the detail (color speckles) of the concrete above the pilings and more detail in the bricks as well.

I agree though that foliage is where the Merrill detail capture shines for me; nice crisp, detailed leaves, grass, etc. True on rocks and details of landscapes too. Since those are  major components of my normal photographic subjects, this puts the Sigma cameras ahead of others for me. I'm leaving all my Canon 5DII + lenses at home tomorrow on a 3 week trip... just taking Sigma: DP2Merrill, SD15 + lenses, and I'm still debating whether to put the DP1/DP2 bag in my suitcase...

PS: I dislike extensive post processing too, which is why I go 100% SPP usually. But my basic settings are different from what Jim gives above.

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)

 SandyF's gear list:SandyF's gear list
Sigma DP1 Sigma DP2 Sigma DP2 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma DP1 Merrill +7 more
nick_webster
OP nick_webster Veteran Member • Posts: 7,623
Workflow ...

RAW -> SPP defaults except Vivid colour -> 16bit TIFF -> Fastone to crop

That's it.

Similar for the NEX exept developed in Aperture with defaults.

If DPRs rendering or Fastone have done anything odd it will have done the same for both I guess.

I've not got any ulterior motive for this thread - except to try and push Sigma to put some features in their cameras that can be of real benefit and help them sell more of their products. I'm not trying to make one camera look better than another.

I've said it before and I'll repeat myself now - I prefer the DP output in good light. I knew the limitations of the DP series before I spent my own money to buy one and I'm very happy with what it can produce in the right conditions

Nick

Jim Funston Senior Member • Posts: 1,698
Re: Red on red,

Nick, I definitely see your point and all those items would be nice if Sigma offered them. There was a thread here not that long ago about a company in China taking DPXm cameras and converting them to M mount's for use with Leica glass. I am not sold that even with Leica glass or my beloved CG glass the final images would be any better than what I get out of my DP2m pairing..... it could be better I guess but I think the magic is in the lens/sensor pairing Sigma stumbled upon.

I'd love to find out where to sign up on the freebee list for Sigma being retired and on a fixed income in this economy is making the dumping of one brand for another a major hurdle but one I am seriously considering as I am finding the difference that significant. Never thought I would ever switch from A/E mount systems as I have all took much invested into them.

Anyway I thought I would affirm that I understand where you are coming from with things that should be offered on future versions.

Oh by the way I am one of those guy's who is PP software poor (own and use a bunch of them) and do a lot post processing to my images to finesse them to exactly what I want..... But then again I use a system not unlike what I used in my large format workflow in that I try my best to get as much as I can as perfect as I can at the time of exposure. I take as few shots as I can to get it done with my scenics. Wildlife with my SLT's is a different story

nick_webster
OP nick_webster Veteran Member • Posts: 7,623
Yes there are ;-)

Where there is detail in areas of similar colours and I think the bricks show this up best, then the Sigma pulls ahead due to having all its pixies available for colour info. 15MP red vs 6MP red of the NEX.

Foliage has less of an advantage due to the NEX having 12MP of green, but due to windy conditions I couldn't get any fair foliage comparison shots between the 2. Hope to rememdy this if we ever get any calmer weather when I'm free.

In other places - for instance the front tyre of the black KIA, there is only a slight, if any, advantage in detail. Pretty much what I'd expect from their relative MP counts.

Comes down to what, how and where you photograph. In the right circumstances there is nothing that will beat the new DPs, certainly not for their size, which is why I've spent my own money and bought one

Just wish they'd add some features that would make taking some sorts of photograph easier - after all Sony and others can do it in the same or smaller size bodies ...

Nick

nick_webster
OP nick_webster Veteran Member • Posts: 7,623
DP3M has an excellent lens
1

As far as I can see so far, it is pretty much flawless. I don't think there is a better 50mm f2.8 lens I could stick on the body.

But what I sometimes want is a 50mm f1.4 lens, or a 100mm f2 lens, or a proper 1:1 macro lens, or even ( just for fun ) a 300mm f2.8 lens 

Nick

SandyF Forum Pro • Posts: 14,941
Re: Yes there are ;-)

I tend to take a lot of 'backyard' and garden florals and local landscapes; it's a question of you shoot what you have at hand. Yesterday I tried a peony with that glowing magenta color (DP2Merrill). I cannot get it right in SPP and don't have time to play further with processing. I'm fully aware that color can be weird, especially strange, glowing high IR (?) colors. Some plants are more difficult than others.

But also I get really busy taking photos during travel. We're taking off for Seattle tomorrow and then on to Hawaii... 3 weeks total... so I'm in the 'yikes' packing stage at the moment. Always take too much...clothes AND gear.

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)

 SandyF's gear list:SandyF's gear list
Sigma DP1 Sigma DP2 Sigma DP2 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma DP1 Merrill +7 more
Jim Funston Senior Member • Posts: 1,698
Re: DP3M has an excellent lens

My hope is the next SD1 version has better high iso performance (heaven knows my A77 sucks in that area as well but I am using it) and better dedicated glass available. Then I will definitely take the financial hit on changing systems so my DPXm cameras will handle my hike in scenics and the SD1? will handle the rest with great Merrill sensor performance to boot.

Hope this wish list becomes a reality before I finally checkout of this life......

D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 24,049
Re: DP3M vs NEX 7

Jim Funston wrote:

I agree with Rand.... I have a Nex 5 , Nex 7, a77, and a a33 in Sony gear along with all too many minolta and sony A and E mount glass (along with various legacy lenses). Never thought at my age I would own anything but a Sony again. My DP2m has just about relegated my NEX gear to being put on Craiglist as I mostly used my NEX gear as a lightweight scenic  camera  system for hike in and out shots. My glass of choice for my N7 was the Contax G 45mm for its outstanding optics but I would have to stitch images for a wider field of view because NEX E mount glass in wide or ultra wide just has more corner issues than I care to have to deal with (the new zeiss 12mm nay resolve this but I am waiting to see at this point) and using a adapter with a mount glass kinda takes away from the "lightweight" aspect of the NEX system.

IQ is a hands down winner for the DP2m over my NEX7 with any or all the glass I have. IQ is everything for me and one can have all the lens interchangeability in the world and it does not help anything if you are getting worse IQ. I had to stitch the CG 45mm Nex 7 images just like I have to stitch the DP2m images for a wider FOV perspective so it is a dead heat when it come to post processing headaches but the bayer sensor on the NEX in no way can match the Merrill foveon sensor for pure detail and IQ.

If the SD1 could fulfill my needs and wants for my wildlife imaging I would dump my entire Sony/minolta gear for Sigma Merrills and never look back.

Don't read this wrong as the Sony's are very nice and I have plenty of images over the years I have been more than proud of but I am merrill spoiled now and it is hard to even look at my Bayer sensored images the same way anymore. This makes me very reluctant to even pick up my Sony's to shoot anything now.

Be cautious about dumping stuff, especially legacy lenses, as there is a good chance Sony will bring out a multi-layer sensor in a year or two.

Sony (and the others) must be well aware of the higher quality of the Foveon images. They probably gnash their teeth in baffled fury when they see a DP2M landscape. Sony want very much to make the best sensors.

Jim Funston Senior Member • Posts: 1,698
Re: DP3M vs NEX 7

D Cox, You most likely are correct and the Sony version Foveon sensor patent we saw awhile back was a positive in my debate to stay or leave Sony entirely..... but I am old and my time is getting shorter by the day so I may be better off to go with what is available today rather than wait for something that may or may not come in the future. My next camera could be my very last camera .... scary to look at it that way but a possible reality none the less. We don't live forever and Sony had me waiting a long time already for the UWA zoom for E mount only to find out it had issues with their Flagship model NEX 7 but worked better of lower priced models(this really fried my patience with Sony). Sony tends recently to be a bit on the slow, delayed, underwelmed end of the spectrum at times with new product releases or firmware fixes for existing issues. With my situation waiting could be a mistake if Sigma came out tomorrow and fulfilled my previously mentioned wish list.

forpetessake
forpetessake Veteran Member • Posts: 4,998
Re: Quick and dirty comparison

It's easy to see on 100% crop that Sigma shot is strongly oversharpened, there are artifacts all over the place. Sigma shoot is also overly contrasty with blown highlights. Sony seems to be resolving a tad more, but once you resize to the screen size that becomes irrelevant.

nick_webster wrote:

I posted these as a response to a subthread but it might get buried so here is a repost of the crops from yesterday

DP3M crop

NEX 7 crop

Ignore the colour difference, neither is right but for detail purposes I don't think it matters.

Both shot at 50mm f5.6.

The lens on the NEX was a Contax 50 f1.4 stopped down as mentioned to f5.6.

I prefer the look of the DP shot, but I'm not seeing the large differences others are. Anyway you can make your own minds up

Nick

PS DPRs galleries tend to soften jpgs but both are softened so it's still fair

Jim Funston Senior Member • Posts: 1,698
Re: Quick and dirty comparison

forpetesake, Nick stated he did nothing but do a auto conversion which explains the slight over sharpening (something many of us turn down in custom) and the blown highlights (which many again intentionally do at the time of exposure and then correct in the custom processing). Contrasty I don't see (to me the Nex has more contrast and would if normally processed in aperture) but then a again I turn my contrast up a tenth or two in SPP usually as I reduce the exposure setting.

More resolution in the NEX .... I don't see that at all but many things effect how that is seen both objective and subjective along with the presentation on the web. I will say without question in print or on my desktop from my own images nothing I own or have owned in film or digital comes even close to the IQ and resolution I achieve out of the DP2m images and my post processing workflow. There are plenty of areas that one could throw stones at these little cameras and sensors for but resolution (as needed for scenics) definitely is not one of them.

hexxthalion Contributing Member • Posts: 539
Re: Quick and dirty comparison

Just give up forpetessake

 hexxthalion's gear list:hexxthalion's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Sigma DP2 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Leica M Typ 240 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +3 more
jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: Quick and dirty comparison

laugh. sound advice.

forpetessake
forpetessake Veteran Member • Posts: 4,998
you just confirmed my findings

hexxthalion wrote:

Just give up forpetessake

Ad hominem attacks are always a sign of lack of arguments on one hand and bad character on the other.

hexxthalion Contributing Member • Posts: 539
Re: you just confirmed my findings

no attack intended, no argument wanted, just found your nickname suitable for my response

 hexxthalion's gear list:hexxthalion's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Sigma DP2 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Leica M Typ 240 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +3 more
villebon Senior Member • Posts: 2,217
Re: Workflow ...

nick_webster wrote:

I've not got any ulterior motive for this thread - except to try and push Sigma to put some features in their cameras that can be of real benefit and help them sell more of their products. I'm not trying to make one camera look better than another.

I've said it before and I'll repeat myself now - I prefer the DP output in good light. I knew the limitations of the DP series before I spent my own money to buy one and I'm very happy with what it can produce in the right conditions

Nick

I like my DP2M and was hoping that somewhere down the road Sigma would come out with an ILC.  The DP3M signaled it's not going to happen.

And I'm not about to buy three cameras bodies to access three focal lengths. And heavy clunky dslrs are out of the question for me.

So for the time being, the DP2M will do, but the NEX-7 replacement is due at the end of summer, so I'll review my options then.

-- hide signature --

Villebon

webber15 Senior Member • Posts: 1,590
Re: you just confirmed my findings

I have been wandering around these forums for a year or so now looking for info on various cameras but i'm afraid i cannot contain myself any longer...forpetessake,either your glasses are out of prescription,or if you don't wear glasses you come from a different planet,called "bayer".Some of the best images i've seen are to be found on the sigma forum,one image in particular remains the best image i've ever seen on these forums...it made my jaw drop...stunning detail of a valley and mountain scene,(somewhere in north america).It was taken with one of sigmas dlsr's.                                                                                                      As for the sigma/nex 7 comparison,not the best sigma effort,but still clearer than the nex 7 shot which is soft,looks like it was shot in portrait mode!

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