can you tell the IQ/ISO difference game: canon5dmk3 vs D800e at iso 6400

Started May 24, 2013 | Discussions
Shop cameras & lenses ▾
Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 34,232
So how do we reconcile...

clarkent1234 wrote:

first one is Canon 5d mark III - 50L 2.8 iso6400..NR/sharpening etc off - both cameras identical in settings

second is: ..............wait for it................................CANON 40D......YES CANON 40D - 35L 2.8 iso1600 (its max!!!) shot at 1600 pushed 2 stops in PP. I am sure most are familiar with ISO pushing technic, so i wont get into that.

NoiseNinja was used at the exact same settings on both. and USM equally the same on CS6.

40D Raw looked a bit more grainy after being pushed 2 full stops in PP. But after Ninja on same setting used on 5dmk3, things looked about identical. Strange but true. Framing was about the same due to crop factor.

2006-7 mid-consumer-whatever-u want to call it- camera replaced by several generations...payed $200 used with high shutter count VS new $3500 full frame camera. Shot at 2.8 since my 35/50 is identical at 2.8!

I've shot weddings with a 40D as my main camera for years, its capable. Before someone says straight out of camera/straight jpeg is cleaner. Sure but not by a mile, and only at 100 percent you will see some differences. but if you payed money on either camera, with todays software available and you do not editing? thats a waste of any dslr/money.....even on one that doesn't even do video or even able to focus in live view (40D)

...your test pics with these?

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E40D/FULLRES/E40DhMULTII3200.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-5d-mkiii/FULLRES/E5D3hVFAI003200.HTM

which tell such a radically different story?  I find it curious that NN (Noise Ninja) resulted in essentially the same noise and detail in both photos.

JasonED Contributing Member • Posts: 942
Re: can you tell the IQ/ISO difference game: canon5dmk3 vs D800e at iso 6400

clarkent1234 wrote:

for the sake of not repeating it over and over again. ISO in combination with SS does. 1/2500, 1/1000.

Are you saying the 5d3 was F/2.8, 50mm, 1/2500 SS  and the 40D was F/2.8, 35mm, 1/1000 ??

-- hide signature --

The sky is blue and there is nothing we can do..

clarkent1234 OP Forum Member • Posts: 85
Re: So how do we reconcile...

I don't shoot charts, compare the two pics in the way you use them (print, web) not 100% crop. Do you see a difference? only radical difference is the light wallet.

we need a noiseninja expert to help us

clarkent1234 OP Forum Member • Posts: 85
Re: can you tell the IQ/ISO difference game: canon5dmk3 vs D800e at iso 6400

yup exactly

Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 34,232
The thing is, though...
1

clarkent1234 wrote:

I don't shoot charts, compare the two pics in the way you use them (print, web) not 100% crop. Do you see a difference? only radical difference is the light wallet.

...whether it's a photo of a chart, or a closeup of some flowers, it should tell the same story.  Honestly, I don't see what's so special about those flower pics over the chart, in terms of seeing a difference in detail and noise.

So, why would the charts tell such a radically different story than your flowers?

All I can think of is the processing.  You said you used NN, which I use, too, by the way, but you said you applied the same settings to each photo.  So how is it that they came out so close?

we need a noiseninja expert to help us

Any chance you could post a link to the RAW files for each?  I'd like to have a go at them, if you don't mind.  I'm really curious!

tecnoworld
tecnoworld Veteran Member • Posts: 6,820
Re: can you tell the IQ/ISO difference game: canon5dmk3 vs D800e at iso 6400

I slightly prefer the 2nd one. Now I go and read to which camera it belongs if you already reported that.

 tecnoworld's gear list:tecnoworld's gear list
Samsung TL500 Samsung NX100 Samsung NX200 Samsung NX300 Samsung NX1 +15 more
ehliysehr Junior Member • Posts: 46
Re: can you tell the IQ/ISO difference game: canon5dmk3 vs D800e at iso 6400

well played!

 ehliysehr's gear list:ehliysehr's gear list
Canon EOS 450D Canon EOS 7D Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM +3 more
Rick Knepper Forum Pro • Posts: 13,295
Yes, I think inspecting the RAWs would be in order
2

To me, lying about the parameters casts suspicion on the whole thing.

In the "REVEAL", the OP wasn't courteous enough to provide specifications for both cameras as if everyone on this forum shoots a 5D3 and/or, for God's sake, a 40D?

Not sure why the resizing resulted in different dimensions for each image except to throw folks off the scent. Complete bogus test.

-- hide signature --

Rick Knepper, photographer, non-professional, shooting for pleasure, check my profile for gear list and philosophy. TJ said, "Every generation needs a new revolution".

 Rick Knepper's gear list:Rick Knepper's gear list
Pentax 645Z Canon EOS 5DS R +2 more
TTMartin
TTMartin Veteran Member • Posts: 7,304
Re: Yes, I think inspecting the RAWs would be in order

Rick Knepper wrote:

To me, lying about the parameters casts suspicion on the whole thing.

In the "REVEAL", the OP wasn't courteous enough to provide specifications for both cameras as if everyone on this forum shoots a 5D3 and/or, for God's sake, a 40D?

Not sure why the resizing resulted in different dimensions for each image except to throw folks off the scent. Complete bogus test.

No Duh!

Relax a little, you're wound way to tight.

It was a fun and interesting experience, and certainly not meant to be a scientific test.

 TTMartin's gear list:TTMartin's gear list
Canon PowerShot S100 (2000) Canon PowerShot SD1000 Canon PowerShot G1 X Canon EOS 40D Canon EOS 400D +26 more
rebel99 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,025
Re: The thing is, though...
1

Great Bustard wrote:

clarkent1234 wrote:

I don't shoot charts, compare the two pics in the way you use them (print, web) not 100% crop. Do you see a difference? only radical difference is the light wallet.

...whether it's a photo of a chart, or a closeup of some flowers, it should tell the same story.  Honestly, I don't see what's so special about those flower pics over the chart, in terms of seeing a difference in detail and noise.

big difference, we don't buy cameras and expensive equipment to photograph impersonal charts, charts don't tell me anything that i relate to, we get to have these cameras to photograph people and nature and capture important moment that means something to us! charts only mean something to grearheads, imo.

So, why would the charts tell such a radically different story than your flowers?ona

that should tell you something that real world is different than fricken charts. i don't even bother looking at charts.

cheerz.

The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 17,054
LOL

Funny how some here got an old 40D confused with FF cameras.

 The Davinator's gear list:The Davinator's gear list
Canon PowerShot G3 Canon PowerShot SX150 IS Canon EOS D30 Canon EOS 10D Nikon D2X +18 more
Glassfish Regular Member • Posts: 358
Re: The thing is, though...

rebel99 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

clarkent1234 wrote:

I don't shoot charts, compare the two pics in the way you use them (print, web) not 100% crop. Do you see a difference? only radical difference is the light wallet.

...whether it's a photo of a chart, or a closeup of some flowers, it should tell the same story.  Honestly, I don't see what's so special about those flower pics over the chart, in terms of seeing a difference in detail and noise.

big difference, we don't buy cameras and expensive equipment to photograph impersonal charts, charts don't tell me anything that i relate to, we get to have these cameras to photograph people and nature and capture important moment that means something to us! charts only mean something to grearheads, imo.

The values are in photographer's mind but not in camera. It knows no differences between flowers and color patterns or lines.

The questions here are around noise, brightness and general IQ. Lines can be made to look good too (for certain people).

Just another Canon shooter
Just another Canon shooter Senior Member • Posts: 4,691
Re: can you tell the IQ/ISO difference game: canon5dmk3 vs D800e at iso 6400
1

clarkent1234 wrote:

for the sake of not repeating it over and over again. ISO in combination with SS does. 1/2500, 1/1000.

You meant - SS and aperture (not ISO), I guess? They are both at the same ISO but the 40D was exposed 2.5x longer. How is that an indication of "the same ISO performance" (with the same but not equivalent f-stops)?

So with the same amount of light, the difference, after a lot of NR and downsizing is hard to see. Why is that surprising and deserving of a whole thread?

 Just another Canon shooter's gear list:Just another Canon shooter's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye Canon EF 35mm f/1.4L USM Canon EF 50mm f/1.2L USM Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM +4 more
ernieF Senior Member • Posts: 1,591
I agree with others...

A fun exercise and surprising conclusion.  Thanks for taking the time and effort-- and for your originality;>)

Cheers.  Ernie.  Happy owner of new 6D.

 ernieF's gear list:ernieF's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Olympus OM-D E-M10 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 14-150mm 1:4-5.6 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm 1:2.8 Macro Panasonic 12-35mm F2.8 +5 more
jalywol
jalywol Veteran Member • Posts: 7,530
Re: can you tell the IQ/ISO difference game: canon5dmk3 vs D800e at iso 6400

Tried the test myself; since I don't have a horse in this race it was more out of curiosity than anything else.

The only conclusion I came to is that I thought the color rendering, DR, and noise and detail in shadowed areas was nicer on the first image.

Good to know that technology has improved camera output a little bit anyway in a few years

-J

Just another Canon shooter
Just another Canon shooter Senior Member • Posts: 4,691
Re: I agree with others...
1

ernieF wrote:

A fun exercise and surprising conclusion.

Why is it surprising? He used equivalent settings and got almost equivalent results. The 5d3 is only about 1/2 stop more efficient than the 40D.

 Just another Canon shooter's gear list:Just another Canon shooter's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye Canon EF 35mm f/1.4L USM Canon EF 50mm f/1.2L USM Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM +4 more
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 24,288
What about resolution?

The 40D is only 10mp while the 5D MK III is 22 mp. Compare full size images from each camera and you will see the MK III has much more detail.

-- hide signature --
 tbcass's gear list:tbcass's gear list
Sony RX100 Sony SLT-A77 Tamron SP AF 90mm F/2.8 Di Macro Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM Tamron SP 70-300mm F/4-5.6 Di USD +8 more
Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 34,232
Good grief!
4

JasonED asked in the post above :

Are you saying the 5d3 was F/2.8, 50mm, 1/2500 SS  and the 40D was F/2.8, 35mm, 1/1000 ??

and you replied:

yup exactly

WTF?!  So the 5D3 photo had 1 1/3 stops less exposure, and thus the exact same amount of light fell on the 5D3 sensor as the 40D sensor, and you're surprised the noise levels are so close?

C'mon, man.  Please.

First you say it's the 5D3 vs the D800 when it's the 5D3 vs the 40D.  If you didn't want to prejudice the outcome of people's guesses, just ask which photo looks less noisy without prompting them with false choices.

When you did reveal which cameras were used, you failed to give the EXIF, and then said:

but if you payed money on either camera, with todays software available and you do not editing? thats a waste of any dslr/money.....even on one that doesn't even do video or even able to focus in live view (40D)

Poor form.  Really poor form.

Now, I'm not accusing you of malicious deceit, so apologies if I come across that way.  But I am saying that there are [significantly] better ways to do what you did that would not have let to all this confusion, and quickly explained why your conclusion was bogus.

All that said, the 5D3 sensor has a QE of 50% vs the 40D sensor which has a QE of 33%, so I still would have expected to see a greater difference in noise between the photos that I did, so I'm thinking the whole balance of detail/noise via the application of NN (Noise Ninja) along with the downsampling of the 5D3 photo plays into this somehow.

So, per my request to you above, it would be nice if you made the RAW files available so that some of us might be able to see what's going on.

Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 34,232
Re: I agree with others...
1

Just another Canon shooter wrote:

ernieF wrote:

A fun exercise and surprising conclusion.

Why is it surprising? He used equivalent settings and got almost equivalent results. The 5d3 is only about 1/2 stop more efficient than the 40D.

It's still surprising.  The 5D3 sensor, as you note, is more efficient, and by virtue of the greater pixel count, NR (noise reduction) should make the balance of noise/detail fall further into its favor.

I'd like to have access to the RAW files and have a go at it.

Just another Canon shooter
Just another Canon shooter Senior Member • Posts: 4,691
Re: I agree with others...

Great Bustard wrote:

Just another Canon shooter wrote:

ernieF wrote:

A fun exercise and surprising conclusion.

Why is it surprising? He used equivalent settings and got almost equivalent results. The 5d3 is only about 1/2 stop more efficient than the 40D.

It's still surprising.  The 5D3 sensor, as you note, is more efficient, and by virtue of the greater pixel count, NR (noise reduction) should make the balance of noise/detail fall further into its favor.

At this extreme ISO, the extra resolution coming from the more pixels and the less enlargement is mostly gone. For a closeup like this, the lower DOF would decrease the apparent sharpness.

But this is not so interesting, IMO. Most of the people here are under the impression that the crop body somehow performed equal to the FF, expecting about 2 stop difference and seeing almost none; without realizing that the expected advantage should be just 1/2 stop. I do not think that anybody would be surprised, if after heavy NR, the 5D2 and the 5D3 would look quite similar.

 Just another Canon shooter's gear list:Just another Canon shooter's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye Canon EF 35mm f/1.4L USM Canon EF 50mm f/1.2L USM Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM +4 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads