Is it OK to "steal" pictures for school reports, etc?

Started May 20, 2013 | Discussions
jcharding Senior Member • Posts: 2,341
No different than quotes

This is no different that quoting something within the paper.  So long as it (be it quote, picture or whatever) is sourced/cited in some manner using a photo is perfectly appropriate.

So for example if I quote a part of a history book, it, it doesn't matter if that history book is a real book written for profit or a piece of Wikipedia.  It just needs quotation marks and a proper citation.  Pictures work no differently.

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jtan163 Senior Member • Posts: 2,265
Re: Is it OK to "steal" pictures for school reports, etc?

tkbslc wrote:

My first grader is doing a report on eagles.  We were thinking of printing a few pictures from some websites to use in the project.   But then I got thinking, is this photo theft or a copyright violation?  Isn't there some provision made for educational use?

Or I guess another question might be, would you be angry if you found out someone used a picture you had taken for a school project?

Obligatory warning: IANAL.

Depends on your country, but yes in some juristictions there is a clause about fiar use including educational use.

But most people really don't understand what that means.

That is means something like you can use a percentage of the work (in Australia it is usually quoted as 10% I think) for edcuational purpsoes.

What that means is that say you are a lecturer at a duly registered educatiional institution, you can say take a journal and photocopy an article and use that in clase, instead of the whole class buying the article.

Or you are a student and you want to read a journal article or txt book cahpter at home and the material is not loanable, then yes you can copy a portion of it.

It does not mean that just because you are a student you can go crazy.

It also does not mean you can copy or broadcast entire works to use for self education or to educate others (you see this all the time on youtube, people put up documentaries and say "Im put it up for educational purposes so that is fair use").
Wrong. That is piracy.

Here is some of the copyright policy etc of a local university here.

http://www.adelaide.edu.au/copyright/
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/copyright/study_research/

I suspect that universitys wherever you live will have similar policues and explanations.

Simply being a student is not a license to use copyright works.

That said, I can't imagine anyone is going to come after you and I certainly can't see a judge doing much more than a warning if someone did come after you and you first grader.

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jtan163 Senior Member • Posts: 2,265
Re: Is it OK to "steal" pictures for school reports, etc?

ZorSy wrote:

looper1234 wrote:

tell the kids to get picture from a trusted source, like wiki.

explain the what is meant by "Attribution" make that part of the project, giving credit for your sources is good practice.

If not, think about it as a kerbside: take a $10 note and write your name and phone number  on it, leave it laying there. Then wait for call to come....Technically, it's your money. But to claim it back, you'd have to explain why did you leave it on the kerbside on the first place (instead of your valet). Where I live, we don't write our names on the notes....

Where I live there is an offence larceny by finding.

You find money or any other property the correct thing is to hand it into the police.

After some period of time if it is unclaimed you can claim it.

If you don't do that, you are techncially committing an offence, though I don't think it is one that is often prosecuted.

I think it is mainly used when the police suspect someone stole something, but the person claims they found it.

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Doug J Veteran Member • Posts: 9,565
Re: No, it's not
3

Cane wrote:

Doug J wrote:

MaxTux wrote:

(And it's not a matter of "stealing").

The sad reality is that this is common practice. Kids are actually encouraged to simply pick up images from whatever source they can and include that in their school projects. For some reason that I find very hard to understand, those evaluating such assignments would have no tolerance for including a piece of text not authored by the student, but doing the same with an image is somehow OK.

So I don't care about "stealing", I care about the system that conditions kids to have vastly different levels of authorship respect between the text and the images.

MaxTux

Was it your intention to direct your reply to me?

Do you know how to use the internet? Just because it's under you doesn't mean it's a response to you. Go to flat view.

Do you know how to post in a forum? Here's a tip - check and see to whom your reply will be made when you post, it's titled "In reply to...", it's the same in both threaded and flat view. See, that's not so hard now is it?

Joseph T Lewis III Veteran Member • Posts: 3,379
Re: No, it's not
3

Cane wrote:

Doug J wrote:

MaxTux wrote:

(And it's not a matter of "stealing").

The sad reality is that this is common practice. Kids are actually encouraged to simply pick up images from whatever source they can and include that in their school projects. For some reason that I find very hard to understand, those evaluating such assignments would have no tolerance for including a piece of text not authored by the student, but doing the same with an image is somehow OK.

So I don't care about "stealing", I care about the system that conditions kids to have vastly different levels of authorship respect between the text and the images.

MaxTux

Was it your intention to direct your reply to me?

Do you know how to use the internet? Just because it's under you doesn't mean it's a response to you. Go to flat view.

You might want to learn to use the internet (and DPReview in particular) yourself, before making snarky remarks to others.  MaxTux's post was clearly labeled "In reply to Doug".  So, you just showed the world that YOU don't know how things work.

Doug J did it the right way; he replied directly to the person who made the original post.  MaxTux (albeit probably innocently and not realizing the nuances of how DPR handles replies) did not.

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Tom

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gloaming Veteran Member • Posts: 3,677
Re: No different than quotes
1

As learning difficulty and levels progress, and where one is likely to proffer new thinking, one is more likely to be criticized for not providing attributions/citations to indicate the 'assistance' given by those who have helped one to generate the new idea(s).  For example, in academia at the graduate level, learners must quickly learn to cite their sources...or else.

Therefore, in public school, a wise and well-intentioned teacher will encourage his/her learners to adopt the conventions of good academic analysis and prose early.  That would include at the very least citing a web page from which the information/file/image was taken.

Joseph T Lewis III Veteran Member • Posts: 3,379
Re: No different than quotes

gloaming wrote:

As learning difficulty and levels progress, and where one is likely to proffer new thinking, one is more likely to be criticized for not providing attributions/citations to indicate the 'assistance' given by those who have helped one to generate the new idea(s).  For example, in academia at the graduate level, learners must quickly learn to cite their sources...or else.

Therefore, in public school, a wise and well-intentioned teacher will encourage his/her learners to adopt the conventions of good academic analysis and prose early.  That would include at the very least citing a web page from which the information/file/image was taken.

The above sounds quite reasonable.  A 7 year old first grader won't understand intellectual property law and copyrights like a high school senior should.  But, he or she would understand "let's not forget to thank the nice person who took the picture of the bird by including their name underneath it " (or something similarly age-appropriate).

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Tom

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Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,087
use mine, if you like ...
3

tkbslc wrote:

My first grader is doing a report on eagles.  We were thinking of printing a few pictures from some websites to use in the project.   But then I got thinking, is this photo theft or a copyright violation?  Isn't there some provision made for educational use?

Or I guess another question might be, would you be angry if you found out someone used a picture you had taken for a school project?

As a long time Univ. professor, I can assure you this is well within the fair use guidelines. If this was an older child, say 5th grade or up, then including a proper citation is actually an important part of the project.

But this is first grade!  Don't fret the citations -- maybe just say where it came from and have fun talking about how the photographer might have taken the shot, and perhaps experiment a bit trying to take your own shot of a backyard 'eagle'.

If you like, you're more than welcome to use mine  ... http://www.flickr.com/photos/jck_photos/sets/72157624712464851/  I've got some shots of a Bald Eagle, and of some nasty little Merlin falcons that nest outside our cabin door. Private message me if you'd like a bit more info on where and when this photos were taken. We're pretty fond the critters around our cabin.

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Jeff

Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 40,751
Re: No, it's not
4

dsjtecserv wrote:

So really, your assumptions about how this works "throughout the internet" are a bit flawed. But I don't mind explaining to you how it works here.

Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 40,751
OT: Tex, forget Rhine II...

...here's someone gunning for the crown:

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bea-Arthur-nude-painting-fetches-1-9M-in-NY-4523910.php

Give it a few more years to reach the top. 

tex wrote:

With "fair use", ALL materials not the product of the writer in an academic paper need to be sourced, and in better schools and higher grades this will be true.

First graders, however, are given a pass on this one on cognitive grounds.

The greater problem in fair use pertains to those media where sourcing is awkward at best.  There are no footnotes in a concerto, for instance, or a ballet.  It does seem to me, however, that source material is being better sourced by visual artists, gradually, in label copy and etc.  It's far, far, FAR, from a complete project, but it seems to be getting better (I work in a contemporary art museum, just for the record...).

Interestingly, I think, photographers are much more prickly about this than other visual artists, who often copy from each other pretty freely....

Yes, it is indeed odd how photographers seem to be more touchy than others on this point.

zabatman Regular Member • Posts: 435
Re: Is it OK to "steal" pictures for school reports, etc?

I researched this recently for a project my daughter was doing.

In the US, it is considered Fair Use.  See here:

http://copyright.columbia.edu/copyright/files/2009/10/fairusechecklist.pdf

____________________________________________________________________________

If you want more detail:

"Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976 lists four factors that must be addressed for a court to determine that a party’s use of a work falls within the fair use definition:

  • the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for non-profit educational purposes;
  • the nature of the copyrighted work;
  • the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
  • the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

(Source: http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/archive/ci/31/i03/html/03legal.html)

Here is Stanford's take on it:

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html

It refers to Educational Guidelines in Chapter 7: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-b.html#1

which in turn states "The educational use guidelines can be found in Circular 21, provided by the Copyright Office."

The circular can be accessed here: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ21.pdf and it is widely considered to apply to students too.

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zabatman Regular Member • Posts: 435
It's actually not stealing. It's allowed under the Fair Use Convention.

Here in South Africa the following is allowed under the Fair Use Convention:

What can be copied?

Motion media:

o Up to 10 percent of the total or three minutes, whichever is less.

Text material:

o Up to 10 percent of the total or 1,000 words, whichever is less.

o An entire poem of less than 250 words may be used, but no more than three poems by one poet or five poems by different authors in an anthology.

For poems exceeding 250 words, 250 words should be used but no more than three excerpts from one poet or five excerpts from different poets

in the same work.

o A chapter from a book (never the entire book).

o An article from a periodical or newspaper.

o A short story, essay, or poem. One work is the norm whether it comes from an individual work or an anthology.

o A chart, graph, diagram, drawing, cartoon or picture from a book, periodical or newspaper.

Music, lyrics, and music video:

o Up to 10 percent of the work but no more than 30 seconds of the music or lyrics from an individual musical work.

Illustrations or photographs:

o No more than five images from one artist or photographer.

o No more than 10% or 15 images, whichever is less, from a collection.

o Multiple copies of a chart, graph, diagram, drawing, cartoon, or a picture contained in a book or periodical issue.

Numerical data sets:

o Up to 10 percent or 2,500 fields or cell entries, whichever is less, from a copyrighted database or data table.

Copying of a multimedia project:

o No more than two copies may be made of a project.

Poetry:

o Multiple copies of a poem of 250 words or less that exist on two pages or less or 250 words from a longer poem.

Prose:

o Multiple copies of an article, story or essay that are 2,500 words or less or excerpts up to 1,000 words or 10 percent of the total work, whichever is less.

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tex Veteran Member • Posts: 7,403
Hey, GB!

Haven't forgotten you, just had a year from hell.  Back on the case in a month or so.  As far as this one goes, let me be the first to say here on DPR that John Currin sux.  AFAIC, this thing has no redeeming value at all.  But he is real popular, and big on the NYC art party circuit, including the Hamptons.  Anyway, there is no relation between the worth of the work and its auction price, as previously stated.

And I'm glad you have also noted this aspect of photographers.  It is very very interesting to me, suddenly.

BTW, I've really liked some of your posts this spring. Kudos.

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tex_andrews
"Photography is the product of complete alienation" Marcel Proust
"I would like to see photography make people despise painting until something else will make photography unbearable." Marcel Duchamp

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DonA2
DonA2 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,058
Re: It's actually not stealing. It's allowed under the Fair Use Convention.

Anything posted in the public domain is open to copy, for non profit, personal use.  Copy any of mine freely but don't let me catch you using it commercially without my explicit approval.  Or worse still claiming it to be your own.  It is proper to credit the photographer but for personal use, even to illustrate a grade school paper, who is being harmed?  I can't even see this as a moral issue.

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OpticsEngineer Veteran Member • Posts: 6,192
Re: Is it OK to "steal" pictures for school reports, etc?

My kids are in 2nd and 4th grades.   At school they download articles and pictures off the internet to write reports.  The instructions for their homework make it clear that sometimes they are expected to do the same at home.   The teachers say it is essential to be teach these skills so they can grow up to be effective workers.

My state is somewhat poor.  Recently the cable companies have started programs to provide free computers and no or very low cost cable access so children can do their homework.  My sister-in-law is a high school teacher and tells me it is simply impossible for high schoolers to do their homework without computers and internet access.  It is completely ingrained in the system now.   So it is not like any teacher would be tricked by someone using the internet.  In high school, my sister-in-law tells me citing the sources is required.   In grade school, not nearly as much.

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kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,410
Re: use mine, if you like ...

Jeff wrote:

As a long time Univ. professor, I can assure you this is well within the fair use guidelines. If this was an older child, say 5th grade or up, then including a proper citation is actually an important part of the project.

But this is first grade!  Don't fret the citations -- maybe just say where it came from and have fun talking about how the photographer might have taken the shot, and perhaps experiment a bit trying to take your own shot of a backyard 'eagle'.

For a first grader, maybe a lesson could center around writing a short thank you note, a lesson that will always be appropriate later in life.  While the citation is appropriate for the older children and up, I think people generally publish online so that others can benefit from the work and they would appreciate hearing about it.

(to be cautious, probably better to route through a parent controlled gmail type address, in case the person turns out to be a bit of an ass.)

Antioch Senior Member • Posts: 2,051
Educational Use and Institutions Are Exempt !
1

Educational Use is exempt from Copyright Laws. Otherwise, nobody would be able to learn anything.

The key is that it is used for educational purposes, and not resold etc.

Regards

SteveCooper
SteveCooper Contributing Member • Posts: 612
Re: No, it's not
2

my daughter (5th grade) is required to print a link next to any photo she uses in a report or project  that shows the source material if taken off the internet.

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DenWil
DenWil Veteran Member • Posts: 3,332
Of course it is.
1

Why would anyone post thousands of images on sites like flick'r if they had an issue with repurposing for non profit usage? It's a free stock site for all comers.

Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,087
Great suggestion! (n/t)
1
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Jeff

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