Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering

Started May 17, 2013 | Discussions
RichRMA Veteran Member • Posts: 4,073
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering
1

Well, perhaps mirrorless companies need to keep bringing in new iterations of lenses, with 50-70% price increases each time, like Nikon does?  There is no turning back.  Mirrorless has taken off overseas and like the movie business which now counts overseas for 2/3rds of its gross income (as opposed to the U.S. providing the majority of the box office as it once did), we won't see mirrorless disappear, it will just have to "evolve" financially, the way DSLR's have.

ed2002 Regular Member • Posts: 254
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering

Midwest wrote:

ed2002 wrote:

nikkorwatcher wrote:

maybe the problem is that mirrorless is following developments in sensors too closely and the product lines change too fast? Every time they design a camera and fabrication process they have to make the money back. For a production run of a year that's difficult. They're squeezed in the middle re price and quality.

I think you are making the same false assumption as the OP.

The sub $200 P&S lines of olympus lost a great deal of money.  In the news item that followed Olympus's decission to exit that market segment it said it would concentrate on high margin sales of of interchangable lens cameras.  That seems to say that given the great lack of evidence, that Olympus did not in fact lose a great deal of money on the m4/3.  They simply did not sell as many as forecast.

You have to sell at least X amount in order to make the first bit of profit. Until you do that, you are still paying back the R&D and startup costs for the product you sell.

Suppose a camera has a profit margin between labor and materials and selling price, of $100. If the company needs to sell 100,000 of these to cover the R&D and startup costs, until they sell camera 100,001 they have not made any profit, they're running a loss. If they predicted selling 150,000 cameras and only sell 90,000, they have not just made 60% of their targeted profit. They've made a loss.

I don't follow.  Why wouldn't the OMD be profitable right now.

Olympus said they need to cut expenses on fixed lens, that those were the expenses killing the division.  They also are killing a line and expecting a big decrease in sales from fixed lens.

Also in the report was that they consider IQ R&D in the m4/3 area stategic as they use that R&D in their medical imaging.  R&D expenses are sunk for unprofitable low priced fixed lens.  They just need to eat those.  THey can move some research personnel to m4/3 imaging ,but they need to develop more m4/3 bodies and lenses in what is potentially a profitable segment.

GeorgeD200 Regular Member • Posts: 402
Re: I think SLR sales will take a "hammering" soon, too.

I think that DSLR sales will be dropping rapidly soon also.  I don't have hard numbers to back this up -- it's just a hunch, but I am "in the business."

The bottom line is that any technology item can reach a market saturation point.  Compact cameras did (and cameraphones didn't help), computers did, memory cards did, LCD TVs did.  Sure, they're still manufacturing and selling these items, but the market isn't growing as it once did, and in some cases it's shrinking.

So much technology marketing is based on the "new and improved" model.  Buy our SLR because it's bigger/better/faster/more.  That works for a while, but then the cameras reach such a level that most consumers realize that they don't need more.  90% of DSLR buyers don't need more than 12 megapixels (and they're starting to figure that out).  50% of DSR buyers don't care if their camera can do 1080p instead of 720p.  Etc. etc.  Again, I guessing on these numbers, not using market research, but I think the premise is sound.

When technological advances get less exciting, sales suffer.  The jump from 16 to 24mp just isn't that interesting.  Of course, camera quality is about more than megapixels, but most consumers don't care about 1 stop of ISO noise level improvement or a Digic 4 vs. Digic 5 processor either.

Before you flame me that you do care about a 30% increase in resolution or 1 stop of high ISO noise reduction, remember that YOU ARE NOT THE AVERAGE CONSUMER.  The average consumer doesn't spend time discussing their purchases on forums.  We are an important market segment, but we're not the largest or most "normal" segement.

JMO

ed2002 Regular Member • Posts: 254
Re: That is what you get when you do not do yoru research
1

Mjankor wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

In their reports I also noted a clear remark that their mirrorless line has been profitable over the last year.

Good work.

Looks like there's some lies, damn lies and statistics going on here.

I can thank abrak for pointing out the real data.

Digital camera sales fell YOY last quarter, with low priced fixed lens cameras falling the most.  Interchangeable lens cameras also fell, with dslrs falling more than mirror less.  This makes sense that  mirrorless is a growing percentage of the interchangeable lens market.

That is contrary to the thread title.

Other highlights are that Olympus camera division lost money, because they had expenses too high.  They are cutting a low priced line and many other expenses.

It did not appear to be broken out what the margins are on the m4/3 cameras and lenses.  We can assume from prices that lenses have very high margins.   I don't know if m4/3 bodies are profitable, or sold at a loss to sell lenses.

vzlnc Regular Member • Posts: 260
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering

Ulric wrote:

vzlnc wrote:

Mirrorless cams are way over priced for now and that will always keep them as a niche market.

I would say that E-PM2+kit lens is about the same price and same IQ as an entry-level DSLR (say, a D3200). That seems reasonable to me.

No viewfinder , no flash for same price as the D3200 which has a flash and viewfinder. m43 is more expensive as a system, but atleast if they keep the entry level cost cheaper, more people will try them out.

Just Having Fun Veteran Member • Posts: 3,869
EVERYONE doubling down on Mirrorless
5

Every camera maker said they are going to focus MORE on mirrorless.  Olympus is dropping P&S to put more into mirrorless.  Sony is getting rid of the mirror even in FF.  Nikon and Canon said they are going to spend more on it too.

Everyone seems to know the future is cameras without mirrors, except a handfull of people here.

I remember whe electronic typewriters made their last big push.  PCs were too expensive and no one thought they would catch on in the home.  Typewriters/wordprocessors had 90% of the market.

Abrak Veteran Member • Posts: 4,120
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering

tecnoworld wrote:

Now that samsung released the source code for nx300, many photogrphers with coding skills could be interested in adding functions to it (ala chdk, but with a much more powerful hardware). So the situation could change and samsung could become a big player in the mirrorless market.

Camera holders are always pretty snobby about cameras. I mean which camera manufacturer in the world sells the most cameras? The answer (I am 90% certain) is Samsung. In 1Q while compacts/DSLRs/mirroless were declining 43%/23%/18.5%, smartphone sales increased 63m units yoy to 210m units. So 210m units compared to 603k units for mirrorless. Samsung sells something like 50% more units than Apple, so I assume it is the biggest player.

One rather suspects that Samsung doesnt market its mirrorless offering aggressively because it knows better than anyone there is absolutely no point. I mean I suspect the nearest that Samsung is going to come to a serious camera launch is the Samsung S4 Zoom which is essentially an S4 with a 10x optical zoom camera builtin - it will probably sell more than any other compact in the world and we will happily ignore it because it has a phone attached.

Olympus and Panasonic are being battered for being optimistic about growth in mirrorless when there isnt any. Nikon is forecasting 10% sales growth this year and its markets are in much sharper decline. It seems that ALL camera manufacturers are determined to be rigidly optimistic rather than face up to the market reality. I cant help but feel 2012 will be looked back as a bumper year for cameras - when M43 came into its own with the Sony sensor and OMD, when FF became vaguely affordable 6D/D600 and when a virtually medium format FF was introduced. There seems very little pushing the envelope this year.

I mean the signs are that 'digital cameras' in there entirety are going to be a small niche at the edge of the smartphone camera market.

2012 saw....

78m compact sales

20m ILC sales

How big exactly will the market be in 5 years time? Will compact sales exceed 10m units? Will ILC sales exceed 20m units (maybe those that have them will not upgrade nearly as much.)

So to some extent it looks like mirrorless is doing better than other areas of the business while all that is actually happening is that everyone is having a frantic race to the bottom.

ed2002 Regular Member • Posts: 254
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering
1

vzlnc wrote:

Ulric wrote:

vzlnc wrote:

Mirrorless cams are way over priced for now and that will always keep them as a niche market.

I would say that E-PM2+kit lens is about the same price and same IQ as an entry-level DSLR (say, a D3200). That seems reasonable to me.

No viewfinder , no flash for same price as the D3200 which has a flash and viewfinder. m43 is more expensive as a system, but atleast if they keep the entry level cost cheaper, more people will try them out.

I think olypus wants to make money on them, to make up for losses in fixed lens cameras.  That is why once you add a evf its more than the 3200.  It does have a flash that comes with it, but you need to attach it.

Hopefully if olympus can get their costs under control they can do some more development and have a pl5+evf sucessor, be around the same price as an entry level dslr.

Panasonic and Sony are right there also.  Sony sells a vf less Nex with pop up flash for less money.  Panasonic last generation is quite low priced.

Nikon 1 has a fast tracking auto-focus system

Give them anouther year and they will gain more market share.  BTW when mirrorless ilc shipments dropped 18.5% last quarter yoy, DSLRs dropped 23.2%.

I am suprised the headline wasn't cheap compacts dying, DSLRs losing ilc market share to mirrorless models.  m4/3 and NEX are the two leading systems.  I would be great if samsung jointed one of them, and m4/3 gets it's EOS adapter done.

Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,087
What hammering?
2

rattymouse wrote:

As seen at sansmirror.com, the final numbers are in for mirrorless last year and the results are NOT pretty.  The main mirrorless players are either losing enormous money (Panasonic and Olympus), losing some money (Fujifilm), or barely eeking out a profit (Sony).

Canon and Nikon are profitable, but it is virtually certain that their DSLR sales are carrying that load.

Another bloodbath for the mirrorless makers, leading to the question, will they all survive until next year's financial reports??

I'm not so sure mirrorless is taking a such hammering. Here's a chart of CIPA data for monthly shipment (wholesale) of interchangeable lens cameras for the last two years. The read bars are the portion for mirrorless cameras which CIPA started reporting in Jan, 2012.

Looks like the channels may have gotten a bit stuffed for Christmas, 2012, which would explain Oly's current discounting.

This doesn't look like a gloom and doom picture to me.  It's not great -- certainly not the hockey stick growth of smartphones.  On the other hand, is looks like MILC's may have expanded the market a bit (albeit lowering the average price, with some cannibalization of slr sales).

Oly, Panasonic, Fuji, and even Sony are ceding the low end to smartphones -- whether they want to or not -- and appear to be ceding the high end professional market to Nikon, Canon.  That doesn't leave much room in the middle.

The business is not for wimps. And Oly strategy has absolutely no room for error. A killer product released in time for Christmas shipment would be a start and, looking at the chart above, make their forecast. On the other hand, losing market share would have pretty ugly consequences. So execution is critical.

Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,087
A different take ...
1

Abrak wrote:

2012 saw....

78m compact sales

20m ILC sales

How big exactly will the market be in 5 years time? Will compact sales exceed 10m units? Will ILC sales exceed 20m units (maybe those that have them will not upgrade nearly as much.)

So to some extent it looks like mirrorless is doing better than other areas of the business while all that is actually happening is that everyone is having a frantic race to the bottom.

On the other hand, Apple and Samsung, between them, sold around 330 million smartphones which is about half the smartphone market of 600-700 million devices a year.   There 100's of millions, perhaps billions, of potential new photographers out there who are embedded in an information rich, highly visual world.

From that perspective, this is a new golden age for photography. The incumbent camera manufacturers may not like that they missed this boat, just as the typewriter manufacturers of a generation ago didn't like it either, nor does the postal service like email. But that doesn't change the fact that people are communicating visually, in more sophisticated ways, in much more volume than ever in history.

The kiss of death for the camera manufacturers will be a lack of creative vision, not technology.  Imho, they ought to be thinking how they can get close to their customer (like Apple, Amazon, Google), and their data (like Facebook, Instgram, the old Flickr), and provide a means for more creative and beautiful means of expression (like Instagram, whether you like it or not).

Oly, Panasonic, Fuji, and even Sony have no other choice than to figure this out.  They're being squeezed from all sides on this, so they need to find a new path.  MILC's are one concept, we'll how it goes.

Ther photography market is much, much larger than ever before -- it's just that it's morphed into something very different from what the incumbents have known.

cptobvious Contributing Member • Posts: 793
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering
2

Olympus' high end (OM-D and E-P5) are priced too high to compete with DSLR, except in Asia where it's marketed heavily and established.

Here's the current state in the U.S.

  • The average person is satisfied with their phone for taking pictures.
  • The average person with a casual interest in photography will buy a low-end Canon or Nikon DSLR, NEX or m4/3 with kit lens only.  These days no one is buying the new model because everyone knows they get replaced every year and the improvement increments are getting smaller every year.  People are buying last year's model or the model from 2 years ago, at a discounted price that provides little profit margin to the manufacturer.  Yet there's still a glut of oversupply of these old models out there.
  • The average professional photographer (wedding, corporate, journalist etc.) is shooting a full-frame Canon or Nikon only.

That basically leaves a small niche market of hardcore enthusiasts with higher than average disposable income who can afford to shell $2000-3000 for a new system, of which Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and Fuji are fighting over for market share.

Now, in order to return to profitability, Olympus needs to increase their market to woo over some of these casual photographers with disposable income, but it's an uphill battle:

  • Basically no marketing of their high end products.  People don't know why they should pay $1000 for a E-M5 or E-P5 body only when you can get a larger-sensor new D7000 with a lens or a 7D for the same price.  It's hard to go to a store and pick up an E-M5 in person unless you live in a large city.  Heck, when I was in San Francisco I had the hardest time finding a camera store that had one of these.
  • Lenses cost just as much or more than FF lenses and Olympus charges $75-80 for a lens hood.
  • Tracking AF not there yet

The only immediately apparent advantage of the E-M5 over the DSLR (without the benefit of holding both in your hands) is the smaller size and weight.  I have a theory this appeals much more to Asian buyers because they tend to live in densely populated cities with more going on.  There are a lot more street shooting opportunities for which a smaller camera is beneficial.  But for your average American prospective buyer living in suburbia or out in the country, driving an SUV and living in a bigger house, smaller isn't necessarily better.  They are probably not carrying their camera around as often as someone living in Tokyo because frankly there isn't as much to photograph, so size is not the main determining factor.

So basically, if Olympus wants to convince these people that this camera is better despite a smaller sensor, they need to drop the prices, rather than keeping it the same or higher (after factoring in cost of lenses).  I have a feeling they believe they are like Apple, being able to charge premium prices for better-than-average products (which are nonetheless made in China), but without having to market like Apple through advertising and hands-on experience.  I just don't think they are going to get there like this.

MoreorLess Veteran Member • Posts: 4,576
Re: What hammering?

Jeff wrote:

This doesn't look like a gloom and doom picture to me.  It's not great -- certainly not the hockey stick growth of smartphones.  On the other hand, is looks like MILC's may have expanded the market a bit (albeit lowering the average price, with some cannibalization of slr sales).

Oly, Panasonic, Fuji, and even Sony are ceding the low end to smartphones -- whether they want to or not -- and appear to be ceding the high end professional market to Nikon, Canon.  That doesn't leave much room in the middle.

The business is not for wimps. And Oly strategy has absolutely no room for error. A killer product released in time for Christmas shipment would be a start and, looking at the chart above, make their forecast. On the other hand, losing market share would have pretty ugly consequences. So execution is critical.

-

I'd agree with that, I think much of the mirrorless market is operating between the traditional compact and DSLR areas rather than depending mostly on stealing market share from the latter(this is more Fuji's X system and the likes of the GH3/OM-D) as often seems to be talked up here.

As you say though its a very crowded market, DSLR's are a larger market and you've really only got 4 manifactures selling mainstream cameras, You've got Oly, Panny, Sony, Samsung, Nikon, Fuji, Ricoh and now Canon going after the mirrorless market, I'm guessing that long term theres probabley only going to be room for half of them or less.

manthasfamily
manthasfamily Veteran Member • Posts: 6,443
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering

This forum has been an interesting read, and I guess as in everything else time will tell.  Nikon advertises so I'm surprised that they aren't doing better, but with Panasonic (I have a G3) there is no advertising at all, and in my area you can't find one to even test out.  To me this is one reason I see Panasonic dumping cameras since they don't want to put the effort in advertising a quality product.

For me I like the view finder and full articulating screen so I favor the Panasonic.  People complain that the new GH3 is heavy, and about the same size as a small Dslr, but no one seems to take into account that the lens are very light compared to the Dslr market lenses.

I personally would like to see the m4/3 market get better with a better selection of lenses, but if things don't change it won't happen.  Panasonic I believe is in deep doodoo, and unless they want to spend a little cash (advertising, and in store samples, in the States at least) then there is no way that word of mouth is going to keep they in the camera business.  Sad since they make a quality product.

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Karen
If it pleases you then to hell what everyone else thinks!

Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,087
Better Chart ..
2

rattymouse wrote:

As seen at sansmirror.com, the final numbers are in for mirrorless last year and the results are NOT pretty.  The main mirrorless players are either losing enormous money (Panasonic and Olympus), losing some money (Fujifilm), or barely eeking out a profit (Sony).

Canon and Nikon are profitable, but it is virtually certain that their DSLR sales are carrying that load.

Another bloodbath for the mirrorless makers, leading to the question, will they all survive until next year's financial reports??

I've slightly reformatted my chart from earlier in this tread to better show shipments of mirrorless cameras as a portion of the the shipment of all interchangeable lens cameras.  This is data from CIPA for worldwide shipments of interchangeable lens cameras by month since Jan, 2011.

To me, this doesn't look like a hammering for mirrorless cameras.  There does appear to be a problem with channel stuffing prior to Christmas, 2012, which may be the reason you kind find such good deals right now.

And, ss I said before, there may too many camera makers to survive in this narrow niche. Getting squeezed from below by the smartphone tidal wave, and from above by Nikon and Canon is a bad place to be.

To my mind, the strategy flaw is not in the developing this market per se, but in not more directly targeting the 100's of millions of users of those smartphones to higher levels of visual expression. They are not going to be impressed by f-stops and shutter speeds. They need to have a path to better pictures.  Sort of like what Steve Jobs brought to the computer industry.

n3eg
n3eg Senior Member • Posts: 2,276
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering

It will be interesting to see at what price point JK Kodak enters the m43 market in the third quarter of this year.  Historically, Kodaks have been about 2/3 to half what other cameras have been priced at - JK's latest AZ361 was no exception.  Will it cause a minor ripple or a major shakeup?  I'm saving my Ebay money to find out...

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adymitruk
adymitruk Contributing Member • Posts: 500
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering
1

"not doing so good well"

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Hen3ry
Hen3ry Forum Pro • Posts: 18,218
You need to read the actual reports, vzinc…
2

…and look at the cameras you are comparing.

When you say mirrorless is way overpriced for what it is offering, what do you mean? You are comparing the very bottom of the line DSLR prices with the top of the line mirrorless prices.

That's just silly.

Further, you clearly do not understand production and market realities. The mirrorless concept is still new; the prices must reflect new development work, and these cameras are not yet familiar in the market place. The DSLR concept is old. Selling DSLRs now is like selling breakfast cereal. And DSLR accessories are cheap because the development costs have long since been written off.

Panasonic not doing so good? The reason Panasonic's financials are in trouble is its huge investment in manufacturing plasma TV screens when the market has turned to LCD.

Nothing to do with cameras, although I would say the mirrorless models aren’t doing nearly as well as they should do compared with Olympus. Olympus is trading on its name in cameras, of course.

vzlnc wrote:

Mirrorless cams are way over priced for now and that will always keep them as a niche market. The accessory prices are ridiculous. Some cams dont have a built in flash. Lens prices are close to FF/DX prices or more. Is it any surprise that the sales are low. After the initial euphoria of the new system, people are back to demanding more bang for the buck which mirrorless definitely is not high on. Lot of people care more about price than size and a few more pounds doesnt bother as much as the price. Styling and aesthetics are definitely a factor, which is why mirrorless do sell, but that can only take it so far. But I am surprised even Panasonic is not doing so good. They have a very good P&S lineup and very good mirrorless lineup which are also affordable. It could be that the company does not have proper retail chain to support their product.

Cheers, geoff

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cplunk Senior Member • Posts: 1,834
Re: Mirrorless Takes Another Hammering
1

rattymouse wrote:

As seen at sansmirror.com, the final numbers are in for mirrorless last year and the results are NOT pretty.  The main mirrorless players are either losing enormous money (Panasonic and Olympus), losing some money (Fujifilm), or barely eeking out a profit (Sony).

Canon and Nikon are profitable, but it is virtually certain that their DSLR sales are carrying that load.

Another bloodbath for the mirrorless makers, leading to the question, will they all survive until next year's financial reports??

Taking the conclusions of the financial statements as a whole tells you really nothing about the sales or profits of the cameras from Panasonic or Sony.  Unlike Nikon, they do far more than make cameras.

Sony, for instance, is one of the largest Hollywood movie distributors, also one of the large record companies around.

I have a 10" circular saw blade and a microwave make by Panasonic. Which is a division of Matsushita electronic, that also builds in flight entertainment systems along with involvement in countless other industries.

But I guess if you need some reason to bash "mirrorless" cameras, cause you think the future of technology involves a mirror, more power to you, the bottom line fits the story.

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OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: Establishing another niche
1

TrapperJohn wrote:

It's been interesting to see what Thom Hogan has done with sansmirror. Lately, it's been pretty much a shower of poo, aided by some selective cherry picking of numbers, plus iffy statistical analysis.

My guess is - that site wasn't as profitable as he expected, so he has decided to cater to a different audience, those who want to hear that their more traditional camera is still 'the right camera'. Site traffic is money.

So, very much in the Chris Matthews/Bill O'Reilly manner, the site now selectively grabs the worst possible indicators, filters out any context or mitigating facts, and - presto - site traffic is up, at least in the short term.

Eventually, the traditional dslr will fade into niche status, just as the MF camera did many years ago.

Pure speculation that doesnt even have a hint of fact behind it.  Very similar to Fox News.

This is how society in general is moving

No data supports this is at all.

- not towards what is, but what you want to hear. Catering to a narrow mindset has turned out to be quite profitable.

Mirrorless manufactuers are for the most part mired in steep and heavy losses.  At best break even profits come from Sony.  Panasonic, Olympus are losing heaps of cash, while Fujifilm has lost smaller amounts of money, for over a decade and counting.

Two of the most popular news agencies today have a distinct political slant, both engage in the same sort of cherry picking and suppression to cater to their audiences. The traditional news sources? They're not doing so well, economically.

As for what mirrorless is actually doing... it has a bright future.

What mirrorless is doing is losing money.  That's its bright future??

It's where all the really cool things are happening - revolutionary IBIS, rapidly evolving EVF, tiny and precise lenses, great diversity in body design, even two major manufacturers building to the same lens mount specification.

I thoroughly enjoy the OMD, it's as powerful as a dslr, at considerably smaller size and weight. May not work for everyone, but it sure works for me.

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9 years of Fujifilm camera usage, ended by rampant fanboyism.

OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: I think SLR sales will take a "hammering" soon, too.

GeorgeD200 wrote:

I think that DSLR sales will be dropping rapidly soon also.  I don't have hard numbers to back this up -- it's just a hunch, but I am "in the business."

DSLR sales are dramatically out pacing mirrorless and that is growing, not shrinking.

The bottom line is that any technology item can reach a market saturation point.  Compact cameras did (and cameraphones didn't help), computers did, memory cards did, LCD TVs did.  Sure, they're still manufacturing and selling these items, but the market isn't growing as it once did, and in some cases it's shrinking.

So much technology marketing is based on the "new and improved" model.  Buy our SLR because it's bigger/better/faster/more.  That works for a while, but then the cameras reach such a level that most consumers realize that they don't need more.  90% of DSLR buyers don't need more than 12 megapixels (and they're starting to figure that out).  50% of DSR buyers don't care if their camera can do 1080p instead of 720p.  Etc. etc.  Again, I guessing on these numbers, not using market research, but I think the premise is sound.

When technological advances get less exciting, sales suffer.  The jump from 16 to 24mp just isn't that interesting.  Of course, camera quality is about more than megapixels, but most consumers don't care about 1 stop of ISO noise level improvement or a Digic 4 vs. Digic 5 processor either.

Before you flame me that you do care about a 30% increase in resolution or 1 stop of high ISO noise reduction, remember that YOU ARE NOT THE AVERAGE CONSUMER.  The average consumer doesn't spend time discussing their purchases on forums.  We are an important market segment, but we're not the largest or most "normal" segement.

JMO

The average consumer equates SLR's with quality over mirrorles.  That is clear as day here in China, where 90% or more of the cameras found in shops are SLR's and mirrorless is hard to find.

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