Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

Started May 15, 2013 | Discussions
baobob
OP baobob Veteran Member • Posts: 8,981
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

Thx for info

After all it's only an "adaptation"

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baobob
OP baobob Veteran Member • Posts: 8,981
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

Great!

Love the last one!

Makes me hope fascinating experience..

cheers

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Rene Delbar
Rene Delbar Regular Member • Posts: 331
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1
1

Gaffman wrote:

To this day I'm still only willing to turn it in one direction (clockwise looking at the front of the camera) because the other way feels certain to break my lens mount.

Exactly same here. I guess I will get used to it

I also had no idea before buying that the tilt was only in one direction which kinda bummed me out

For tilt, one direction only is not too bad, as usually you know in advance what direction you will want to move towards.

It would be worse for shift, in case you use that feature to make (stitched) panoramas. Using the older shift-only Kipon, you have to rotate the lens mount 180 degrees inbetween full-shift shots in each direction: that makes it delicate not to change any other lens setting (such as focus...).

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Rod McD Veteran Member • Posts: 5,587
Re: Lens expectations.......
1

Hi,

In looking at these posts, I think it's perhaps worth raising the expectations that people might have for FF lenses on these adapters.  I'll confess up front that I haven't bought my Kipon T&S adapter yet.  That's still on my radar......  However, I did use view cameras and spent far too many years of my life machining custom T&S adapters for film SLRs. I hope this helps......

People shouldn't expect FF lenses designed to cover FF to provide huge movements on APSC via T&S adapters.  You won't get as much movement as a purpose designed T&S lens like (say) a Canon or Nikon TS lens or a view camera lens.  OTOH, you will still get some very useful outcomes from them.

If you do the maths, the diameter of a lens image circle that exactly covers FF (24X36mm) is about 43mm.  Most will exceed this by only a few millimetres.  There are some that have bigger image circles, but the quality falls away outside the FF area. The illumination and resolution diminish rapidly, and they usually vignette and get soft.  Purpose designed FF TS lenses have image circles of about 60mm.  That's much larger than a 35mm/ FF lens and approaching a 645 medium format lens.  So, they offer more movement.

Shift is more demanding of image circle than tilt (unless you're doing more extreme tilting movements). The amount of correction you get will depend on the lens FL, the subject situation and how far you are away.  You'll see more effect from WA lenses.  It will also depend on the direction you're shifting.  The sensor isn't square.  If you shift parallel to the long side of the frame, you will reach the edge of the image circle more quickly than shifting parallel to the short side.  It's simply closer to the edge before you shift anywhere at all.  Your adapter may offer 15mm of mechanical shift, but your FF lens may only allow perhaps 6 - 8mm before it runs out of coverage.

Tilt (or swing when left-right) is less demanding than shift for the usual application of extending perceived DOF/sharpness in the classic landscape and still life traditions.  WA lenses have more inherent DOF and don't need as much tilt as longer lenses.  Slightly longer lenses like 35mm and 50mm lenses have less inherent DOF and will benefit more from tilt.  You will find that just a few degrees will probably gain you the benefits you're looking for in most situations.  Even 2 degrees may well be enough.  (You will need more for longer lenses and close distance applications).  And sooner or later, tilt will run you out of coverage too.....

With tilt, don't forget that not all subjects are suitable for the Scheimpflug effect.  You're not actually increasing DOF.  You're tilting the plane of focus onto the subject.  The DOF at any distance doesn't increase for any given aperture.  If you have any part of the subject outside the altered plane of focus (and not within the DOF for the distance and aperture), that part of the image will be OOF even stopped down.   And don't forget to stop down - you may be seeing at maximum aperture what happens when you set the tilt, but your lens is probably still going to be sharper stopped down two to three stops, especially if it's an older lens.  And you gain DOF.

An alternative use is subject isolation and the miniature effect.  If you tilt the lens and adjust the focusing distance appropriately, you can change the plane of focus away from much of the subject and cause only a narrow band to remain in focus - this isolates that band and with the right subject gives the miniature effect that seems to be all the rage at the moment.  (I guess it comes down to what you like.....)

I would suggest avoiding very fast lenses like (say) WA f1.4's for tilt.  It's tempting to think that this will make it easier to spot the plane of focus on the EVF.   This may be true, but the downside (apart from cost and size) is that at those fast apertures, they often have curved fields. This can make setting the degree of tilt a bit more difficult.  They're also often soft in the outer image areas at wider apertures, and it's this area that you're bringing in to your composition.  The ideal lenses are FF lenses with flat-ish fields and strong performance in the corners - look for tests indicating top performance from corner to corner right through the aperture range.  They're usually not fast.  C'est la vie.  Even f3.5 is pretty fast for a view camera!!  And at least you're not composing upside down and left right inverted under a dark hood!!

I hope this helps somebody.  Anybody.  I'd also recommend reading about the use of movements - it's very instructive.  There are whole books written on this for professionals, but IIRC, even googling 'camera movements' or 'Scheimpflug' will reach some good info.

Enjoy movements - they're great.  I can't wait to join in, but as I said to OP Baobob earlier, I've decided to await an XE/XP model with focus peaking.

Cheers, Rod

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baobob
OP baobob Veteran Member • Posts: 8,981
Re: Lens expectations.......

Thx Rod

I appreciate the way you describe what we can expect and what we cannot  ...

It's an adapter and I bought the 17mm 3.5 at a low price; The total expense is reasonable with regards to a purely experimental track

That said if it reveals to be fruitful in my photo practice, a next step could well be in 1-2 years the TS Samyang that will be available also for Fx mount

It's definitly the beginning of a quite exciting initiative...

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Dietr Junior Member • Posts: 47
Re: Lens expectations.......

Having used them, I definitely agree with your post.  I have used a Canon and the 24mm TS-E II and there is no doubt that the results are superior.  at least as far as shifting is concerned.  But I would add that lens distortion plays a larger role then the outer edges of the image circle.  The Canon lens is distortion free and for shifting application of architecture it makes all the difference.

But at less than 1/4 the price for the adapter and lens...it works pretty darn good.  Especially if it is your intention to exaggerate artistically rather than to minimize converging lines.  Bottom line if you intend to use this set up professionally for interior architectural work, it will give you limited success depending on the application.  But for artsy work, I would say that it is a winner!

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Rene Delbar
Rene Delbar Regular Member • Posts: 331
Re: Lens expectations.......

People shouldn't expect FF lenses designed to cover FF to provide huge movements on APSC via T&S adapters.

Fully agree! I have used (Nikon) T/S lenses as well al view cameras before. I might even have a look at the almost-available Samyang 24mm T/S as well... Not sure however if its moderate cost (in light of the alternatives) makes up for the occasional 'fun' use of T/S effects

If you do the maths, the diameter of a lens image circle that exactly covers FF (24X36mm) is about 43mm.

Your adapter may offer 15mm of mechanical shift, but your FF lens may only allow perhaps 6 - 8mm before it runs out of coverage.

Correct. According to the math - and assuming that your lens 'perfectly' covers the FF frame - you should have room for 8mm shift along the long side, and 10mm along the short side.

With tilt, don't forget that not all subjects are suitable for the Scheimpflug effect.  You're not actually increasing DOF.  You're tilting the plane of focus onto the subject.  The DOF at any distance doesn't increase for any given aperture.  If you have any part of the subject outside the altered plane of focus (and not within the DOF for the distance and aperture), that part of the image will be OOF even stopped down.   And don't forget to stop down - you may be seeing at maximum aperture what happens when you set the tilt, but your lens is probably still going to be sharper stopped down two to three stops, especially if it's an older lens.  And you gain DOF.

I've decided to await an XE/XP model with focus peaking.

I have an X100S, and I agree that focus peaking like on that camera would be a bonus. On the other hand, I find MF using the 3x/10x magnification working very well, certainly when using a tripod. I pick my X-Pro1 for doing 'studio' work (better LCD) or my X-E1 for outdoors (better EVF).

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Rene Delbar
Rene Delbar Regular Member • Posts: 331
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1
1

A quick tilt example.

X-E1 with Kipon T&S adapter and Nikon AF 50mm f/1.8 lens shot at f/5.6

Camera tilted 40 degrees down, distance to center of subject approx. 85cm, perpendicular distance from lens center to subject plane approximately 50cm.

5.5 degrees downward tilt.

Setup shot

Fun!

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baobob
OP baobob Veteran Member • Posts: 8,981
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

Thx

Interesting

I'll try to post as soon as I get something worth  .... ??

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chkproductions
chkproductions Senior Member • Posts: 1,104
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

Can you, and has anybody used a real Canon or Nikon TS lens through the use of a regular adapter to the Fuji?

Rene Delbar
Rene Delbar Regular Member • Posts: 331
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

You certainly can with the Nikon ones, using any standard Nikon F to Fuji X mount adapter.

I am not so sure for the Canon ones, as you need electronic control of the aperture (I believe these lenses have no aperture ring of their own). Perhaps the Metabones EF-S adapter will do the job.

Such a lens, used on an APS-C sensor, should give you access to the full shift and tilt capabilities without worries for sharpness and vignetting, and with minimal distortion. Of course, there will always be the cropped FOV taking away from the wide angle effect.

I will try to get my hand on a copy of the Samyang 24mm T/S (with Nikon mount) for testing. In light of the hefty weight of such a lens Inplan to use my Novoflex adapter with its optional tripod collar.
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Rod McD Veteran Member • Posts: 5,587
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

Hi,

No, I haven't done it.  If I owned a TS lens I would certainly try it.  I think it would work, though it will be subject to the usual crop factor conversion on an APSC sensor.  So, shift will be less effective than on FF.

If anything might interfere with the combo it could possibly be any narrowing of the light path inside the adapter that causes occlusion of the rear element of the lens when it's shifted or tilted to its extremity.  If that's not a problem, I can't see any reason that the combo wouldn't work just as well as on the original camera.

Cheers, Rod

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baobob
OP baobob Veteran Member • Posts: 8,981
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

no too expensive !!

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Gaffman
Gaffman Regular Member • Posts: 114
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

Oh sorry mate, the 40mm Voight is a Nikon mount so it goes right onto the tilt/shift adapter.  I can imagine getting the leica mount ones to work would be somewhat trickier.

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baobob
OP baobob Veteran Member • Posts: 8,981
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

I was told by the provider that it could not work unless it is Nikon mount, you just confirm thx

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Gaffman
Gaffman Regular Member • Posts: 114
Re: Lens expectations.......

baobob wrote:

That said if it reveals to be fruitful in my photo practice, a next step could well be in 1-2 years the TS Samyang that will be available also for Fx mount

Do you remember that rumor that was going around a while back that Fuji would release their own native X Mount tilt/shift?... I think I squealed and a little bit of pee came out that day.  I still hold out some hope that they'll continue to push pro boundaries once the current lens roadmap is complete.

But honestly we'll probably be talking about a FF x-camera by then.

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baobob
OP baobob Veteran Member • Posts: 8,981
Some calculations..
1

I use ashift calculator assuming that you can shift up to 10mm both directions with my future 17mm

Here are the results with the % of gained surface if you want to stitch

and

If it really works correctly in such a range that will be great leading to a comfortable flexibility in terms of perspective correction and framing

Seems promising...

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Rod McD Veteran Member • Posts: 5,587
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

Hi again Baobob,

Agreed about the expense.  I must admit that when the question was first posted about using a Canon or Nikon TS lens on the adapter, the thought occurred that if you already own one, you presumably already own the matching FF DSLR.  I'm not sure why you'd use the lens on a mirror-less with half the sensor area (even if you can).  I suppose you might still be interested in the smaller size of the mirror-less, but when you add the bulk of a TS lens to your kit, whatever saving you've made in size and weight  starts to look relatively small.

OTOH, those really old Nikon 35mmf2.8  shift-only lenses are quite small - you could put one of those on an XE1/XP1 with your adapter and get tilt as well.  They're reported to be optically quite good too.......  They'd have the FOV of a 50mm - not much good for shift, but still quite appropriate to tilt.....  And they're not that dear these days - people want wider shift lenses.

Cheers, Rod

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RJNedimyer Veteran Member • Posts: 5,793
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

baobob wrote:

I'm starting a new photographic adventure and hope I'll survive 

i've ordered a used "like new" very old Tokina 17mm f 3.5 Nikon mount and bought the Kipon TS adapter

This topic has been discussed here quite a long time ago abd I would like to now if some over here have got experience in that field

Just want to add that's for architecture, landscape and fun !!

Any comment and advice most welcome

Thx in advance

bob

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I have considered such devices before but do extremely little  architectural photography or specialized modeling photography so take this with litterally a single grain of salt.

To see the differences either through the OVF or EVF or aven the screen on the back of the camera would be at best extremely marginal. so to do the properly you wold probably need a large adjunctive monitor screen. But then agin I have not tried and the fact I am pushing 60 might be a factor.

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chkproductions
chkproductions Senior Member • Posts: 1,104
Re: Tilt and shift lens with adaptor using XP1

I must admit that when the question was first posted about using a Canon or Nikon TS lens on the adapter, the thought occurred that if you already own one, you presumably already own the matching FF DSLR.


I asked the question because I don't have a FF but wondered if the "real" TS lenses actually did work better and if they did, that combined with the exceptional IQ from the X it might be worth it for commercial work.  But then as was stated, there is the crop factor...

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