Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

Started May 7, 2013 | Discussions
Albert Valentino Veteran Member • Posts: 7,005
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

ahuyevshi wrote:

Like you my first dslr was a 10d and the xe1 focuses much faster than that thing ever did. I'll never get rid of my 5d2 but a general statement that you need a dslr to shoot kids and pets is false.

I haven't shot paid work in years and I'd rather always have a camera with me than one I'd rather leave in the car because I don't feel like dragging a bag with several heavy lenses.

A few weeks ago I bought a d7100 with a 16-85 because I wanted to see if a lighter dslr rig would work for me. After a full weekend of dragging it around I realized why I was happy with a mirrorless. I'd rather enjoy outings with my kid than fiddling with settings and spending a huge amount of time behind the vf.

I'm a full manual shooter and having shutter and aperture available at my finger tips is important for me as it allows me to get the shot and move on.

As you said it's a tool, I'm happy with mine.

my D300 and 16-85 was my most used, go to, combo before the XE1 and zoom. Now that just fells big and old. The FF guys needed the nikon 24-120 which is bigger and heavier. Smaller, lighter, with great IQ just makes photography more fun. I guess the Leica guys knew this all along but most of us could not afford to give that a try, now fuji has made that happen....

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KariP
KariP Veteran Member • Posts: 4,938
..... before you buy a Fuji X. Read also something else

Some good points - but usually people choose something  using their own special needs as guidelines. Not comparing cameras.  I have a 7D + several lenses and i did NOT buy Fuji X-E1 to replace the whole system.

You did not mention X-E1 or 18-55 zoom - you missed the best arguments  - light weight and versatility - IMO.

X-E1 with the zoom is nearly perfect for traveling light and getting high IQ images.  Perhaps i will later by some other Fujinon lens when i know what i really need. Perhaps the 10-24 ... not the 50-200

If i want to do some BIF or wildlife shooting , i will haul my 7D with a longer lens - there is no idea in creating a small body system with one huge tele-zoom.  Fuji is made for a small bag, some traveling/walking around or perhaps street photography.  And also for indoor shooting without a flash  - high IQ  with high ISO and low noise compared t any DSLR.

My advice for shoppers is to think first what YOU need - not what Fuji or a DSLR can or can not. I needed a portable  system for some special needs that I have - and a DSLR could not do that. If a camera + just one lens weighs 1400g   and the other system half of it.... try carrying them hanging on your neck for 8 hours.  You will know...

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Kari
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webfrasse Veteran Member • Posts: 3,917
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.
3

Joachim Gerstl wrote:

http://www.littlebigtravelingcamera.com/?p=1991

-

Joachim
http://www.littlebigtravelingcamera.com

What's your point? A bunch of meaningless arguments and comparisons that anyone can figure out. It's not a review of anything, it's a rant...like most amateur poetry. It belongs in your drawer;-)

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Mikael

JimMc Senior Member • Posts: 2,882
Re: ..... before you buy a Fuji X. Read also something else

KariP wrote:

Some good points - but usually people choose something  using their own special needs as guidelines. Not comparing cameras.  I have a 7D + several lenses and i did NOT buy Fuji X-E1 to replace the whole system.

You did not mention X-E1 or 18-55 zoom - you missed the best arguments  - light weight and versatility - IMO.

X-E1 with the zoom is nearly perfect for traveling light and getting high IQ images.  Perhaps i will later by some other Fujinon lens when i know what i really need. Perhaps the 10-24 ... not the 50-200

If i want to do some BIF or wildlife shooting , i will haul my 7D with a longer lens - there is no idea in creating a small body system with one huge tele-zoom.  Fuji is made for a small bag, some traveling/walking around or perhaps street photography.  And also for indoor shooting without a flash  - high IQ  with high ISO and low noise compared t any DSLR.

My advice for shoppers is to think first what YOU need - not what Fuji or a DSLR can or can not. I needed a portable  system for some special needs that I have - and a DSLR could not do that. If a camera + just one lens weighs 1400g   and the other system half of it.... try carrying them hanging on your neck for 8 hours.  You will know...

Very well put.

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framus Contributing Member • Posts: 847
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.
1

Al Valentino wrote:

If you have been around a while and know what you shoot and understand cameas and lenses and do your homework/research then moving to mirrorless is an informed decision. For myself the limitation is basically about wildlife which I knew going in. I also knew the difference in focus speed but so far that has not been a real issue for me.

What the article left out is the intangible aspect. That is the sheer joy of using these cameras. For myself, with 6 lenses for Nikon, at least before I bought the XE1, I could shoot anything but the Fuji brought the joy of photogrpahy back in my life. I know I am not alone in feeling that way and I think that is one of the greatest vitues of these cameas. My DSLR was a tool, my Fuji is a toy, in the most positive sense of the word, as it just makes photogrpahy fun again. We may not have many lenses choices but the choices are all quality that bring out the best in the wonderful sensor. The great lenses bring out the best in a the sensor, and the photogrpaher brings out the best in the camera.

+1 to the above.

While I'm puzzled by the contentious reaction to the OP's well done blog post, I do think he didn't capture the positive aspects of the 'gestalt' of using the X-pro1 and the X100's. These Fuji cameras offer a fresh experience for many when it comes to image making.

In my opinion it isn't about whether DSLR's trump Mirror-less cameras but about what each tool brings to the experience of making pictures.

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flbrit Veteran Member • Posts: 4,256
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

I have a D800e and a Fujifilm X-E1. No conflict for me and many others with DSLRs. I am finding that the X-E1 is being used more, but then I expected that. Hence the purchase in the first place.

I have sold my Nikon 24-120 VR f4 as a result and am planning on selling some more Nikon lenses, both prime and zoom. Before I do so, I am trying to get an idea of the real gaps that need filling.

I already have a few, ie serious landscape work and macro/studio/portrate work using the Nikon Flash System which is unmatched imo.

The original article is very light weight.

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Brian
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Fenwoodian Contributing Member • Posts: 580
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

mjl699 wrote:

OP has made good points. What matters is what weight you give them when selecting a camera for your own use.

DOF: Agree, 35mm has the advantage over APS-C to get a narrow DOF. But I can still shoot a subject's eye in focus and their nose and ears out of focus with the background a complete blur with the Fuji 35mm. And in the converse situation, Fuji has the advantage - shooting with the 14mm with a small aperture (high f-number) its hard to get anything out of focus ... Shoot your preference in terms of lenses.

Features: Agree, DLSRs have lots of features, some are even useful (whilst I personally don't shoot video much, for those that do DSLRs, especially pricey ones, appear to be a lot better than the alternatives). But the basics of photography are aperture, shutter speed, metering, ISO control, and some related options (bracketing, multiple exposures, timed exposures). In my opinion the XP1 does a lot of these as well or (due to control layout) better than many DSLRs.

Focussing: Yep, hands down for DSLRs in terms of speed vs XP1. Shame that's the trade off that I have to make today, but the XP1 is still very usable in this respect.

So I agree that DSLRs remain king for some forms of photography. 10 years ago they were king for almost all types of photography. Now the're not unchallenged. What's to argue?

DSLRs were not the "king for almost all types of photography" 10 years ago.   10 - 20 years ago I was shooting medium format film for landscapes and product photography.   Back then, DSLR couldn't compare to medium format film, sorry....

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Fenwoodian Contributing Member • Posts: 580
Re: ..... before you buy a Fuji X. Read also something else

KariP wrote:

Some good points - but usually people choose something  using their own special needs as guidelines. Not comparing cameras.  I have a 7D + several lenses and i did NOT buy Fuji X-E1 to replace the whole system.

You did not mention X-E1 or 18-55 zoom - you missed the best arguments  - light weight and versatility - IMO.

X-E1 with the zoom is nearly perfect for traveling light and getting high IQ images.  Perhaps i will later by some other Fujinon lens when i know what i really need. Perhaps the 10-24 ... not the 50-200

If i want to do some BIF or wildlife shooting , i will haul my 7D with a longer lens - there is no idea in creating a small body system with one huge tele-zoom.  Fuji is made for a small bag, some traveling/walking around or perhaps street photography.  And also for indoor shooting without a flash  - high IQ  with high ISO and low noise compared t any DSLR.

My advice for shoppers is to think first what YOU need - not what Fuji or a DSLR can or can not. I needed a portable  system for some special needs that I have - and a DSLR could not do that. If a camera + just one lens weighs 1400g   and the other system half of it.... try carrying them hanging on your neck for 8 hours.  You will know...

While I prefer to use my Nikon D300 for birds in flight, I have used my X Pro 1 with Nikkor 400mm f/5.6 MF lens to capture birds in flight photos that are better in every way than photos I've taken with my Nikon D300.  And yes, I have previously posted examples on this blog...

It's all a matter of mastering your equipment.  I've put in the hours to get to know how to shoot BIF with my XP1 and my XE1 using EVFs and it's paid off.  However, those of you who are auto-everything shooters would not care to do BIF manually.   But I like the challenge, have mastered it, and have proven that Fuji X cameras CAN take exceptional BIF and wildlife photos with long Nikkor telephoto lenses IF you're willing to put the hours into mastering the technique.

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pinnacle Senior Member • Posts: 2,542
Useless and poorly written
4

Joachim Gerstl wrote:

http://www.littlebigtravelingcamera.com/?p=1991

-

Joachim
http://www.littlebigtravelingcamera.com

What an incredible waste of time to be directed to a bunch of badly written nonsense...The person who wrote that post made little sense in their conjecture and needs desperately to find someone to spell check and grammar check the text that they post before they post it.

Dan

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Life is good.

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Randy Benter
Randy Benter Veteran Member • Posts: 3,196
Re: ..... before you buy a Fuji X. Read also something else
1

Fenwoodian wrote:

...It's all a matter of mastering your equipment...IF you're willing to put the hours into mastering the technique.

You can paint a house with a Q-tip if your willing to put in the hours, but that doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job.

I don't understand all the replies bashing the OP. It is clear that some who replied did not even read the blog. His main point was that DSLRs are not dead and he said more positive things than negative about mirrorless. He never said you can't shoot fast moving subjects with a mirrorless camera, he said that a DSLR is a better tool for the job.

Size isn't the big difference that some make it out to be. A Canon T4i with 18-55 lens weighs the same as a X-Pro1 with 18-55 lens and isn't much larger. They both have APS-C sensors; the Canon is much cheaper, has faster AF, an articulating LCD and a built-in flash.

I personally use a Fuji because I don't care about the price and I don't shoot fast moving subjects, but I would recommend a small DSLR to most people.

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JanIIISobieski Junior Member • Posts: 35
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

Nikon 1 great camera if you have small kids, good IQ and fast AF with tracking,and what's more importent they are now dirty chip so you can buy one as second camera.

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Fenwoodian Contributing Member • Posts: 580
Re: ..... before you buy a Fuji X. Read also something else

:-)Randy Benter wrote:

Fenwoodian wrote:

...It's all a matter of mastering your equipment...IF you're willing to put the hours into mastering the technique.

You can paint a house with a Q-tip if your willing to put in the hours, but that doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job.

I don't understand all the replies bashing the OP. It is clear that some who replied did not even read the blog. His main point was that DSLRs are not dead and he said more positive things than negative about mirrorless. He never said you can't shoot fast moving subjects with a mirrorless camera, he said that a DSLR is a better tool for the job.

Size isn't the big difference that some make it out to be. A Canon T4i with 18-55 lens weighs the same as a X-Pro1 with 18-55 lens and isn't much larger. They both have APS-C sensors; the Canon is much cheaper, has faster AF, an articulating LCD and a built-in flash.

I personally use a Fuji because I don't care about the price and I don't shoot fast moving subjects, but I would recommend a small DSLR to most people.

Randy, I really like your Q-tip analogy.

The "best" tool for the job (in this case Birds In Flight) means different things to different people.

  • Best to some readers might mean "easiest to use".
  • Best to others might mean "the highest percentage of keepers".
  • Best to others might mean "highest possible quality for limited cost".

Best to me means "the highest possible quality while still being affordable".  Sure I'd love to have my own Hubble telescope, but I can't afford it, so my best telescope needs to be one that produces the highest possible quality for the few hundred dollars that I can afford to spend.

A state of the art DSLR set up with a fast auto-focus 400mm - 600mm lens will probably cost well over $10,000 USD.  It will certainly win the best at "ease of to use" and "the highest percentage of keepers".

While a $2,000 Fuji X camera set up (with a quality manual focus telephoto) will certainly not be the "best" from an "easy to use standpoint" or a "getting the highest percentage of keepers" standpoint; I would argue that it wins at being the best at "producing the highest possible quality for a limited cost".

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KariP
KariP Veteran Member • Posts: 4,938
Re: ..... before you buy a Fuji X. Read also something else - about challenges
1

I know it is possible to take BIF shots with my X-E1 ,  but i am too lazy to do it.  canon 7D has a terrific Aiservo and when i am trying to capture agile acrobats like arctic tern i really want to have a fast camera.  I am not a BIF shooter - it just happens sometimes. I just want a decent image and no challenges...

Arctic tern moving fast

X-E1 has its  own specialities and i like to enjoy them - not much shutter noise, good high ISO, DR 200 + some suitable film simulation for special JPEGs and so on. In my world a perfect camera for traveling light or walking around with a small shoulder bag that can hold other stuff like a map or a notebook.... With 18-55 zoom the price is high but reasonable .

7D is a heavy tool that can do everything if i want to haul a big backpack  with accessories and gear.... and the total price.. it has been a black hole!

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Kari
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Marty4650
Marty4650 Forum Pro • Posts: 14,986
Jocachim... why I think you're wrong
4

You're blog post assumes that MILC cameras are supposed to do everything for everyone, and they just can't do this. In fact, no type of camera can do everything really well.

We select our cameras based on our needs and our preferences, and those things vary a lot for different people. I could be wrong, but I think there aren't very many people who use just one type of camera. And those who do are probably using their cell phones as their only system.

Many DSLR users also own MILC cameras, for the very reasons you explained. They like the OVF and the better AF for moving subjects, but they also like the convenience of a very good camera in a relatively small and light package.

Simply put... the cheapest MILC camera made is better than the most expensive fixed lens enthusiast compact with a small sensor. Yes, you read that correctly. A $400 Olympus EPM1 beats the pants off a Sony RX100 at half the price and with twice the versatility.

MILC cameras are aimed at several very distinct markets, so your generalizations fall short:

  • P&S users who want better image quality
  • DSLR users who want less size and weight in a second camera
  • Street shooters who want a portable and discrete camera
  • High end DSLR users who want a nice small camera for grab shots
  • A few people who want MILC to be their only system

The problems you describe will primarily affect the last group, but only if they need those things that MILC is missing. Clearly, MILC is NOT a good choice for sports and action shooters. But DSLRS are also not a good choice for some other purposes.

Lets examine your objections:

  1. Insufficient lens options. While this is true right now for Pentax Q, Nikon 1 and Fuji X, it certainly isn't true for M4/3, Sony NEX, or Samsung NX. There are over 40 native AF lenses available for M4/3 right now, with more coming every day. And the others will eventually catch up in time. Plus these cameras can use literally THOUSANDS of legacy lenses in manual mode with cheap adapters. Can a Nikon or Canon DSLR do that? Exactly how many types of lenses do most people need?
  2. "The EVF is a pain in the neck." Perhaps for you it is, but it is largely a matter of personal preference. An EVF can provide more accurate and useful information than an OVF can, and they are improving every year. I think you are imposing your own preferences on everyone else.
  3. Poor AF. This is a relative thing, and depends on your needs. If you need the fastest AF, then buy a DSLR or an SLT. But the CDAF isn't slow on M4/3 or NEX, and the Nikon 1 has pretty fast AF too.
  4. Ergonomics. I will admit, these cameras are not the best choice for people with huge hands, but so what? Is a Nikon D4 a good choice for someone with small hands? I'd say MILC cameras have opened up a brand new market by making high quality cameras more suitable for women, smaller people, and seniors. Once again, no camera can please everyone. There is a place for these cameras.
  5. No good FF MILC options. A MILC camera with a FF sensor seems like an oxymoron. Why build a tiny camera, only to have it require huge heavy lenses? As you pointed out, the current choices aren't good ones if you want "FF" and "MILC" in the same camera. Either you are stuck with a fixed 35mm lens, or you have to use a very expensive system that has no zoom or telephoto lenses and doesn't do auto focusing. But your problem really isn't a problem. If you need a FF camera, for all the good reasons you described, then rush out and buy a Nikon D600 or Canon 6D. There really is no natural law that says "one sort of camera must serve all purposes."
  6. Poor value for money. On top of everything else, you seem to demand that these cameras be bargain priced. Well, it just doesn't work that way. This is a niche market with lower volumes, so costs will be relatively high. And despite this there are many people willing to pay a premium price to get the things they want, but you apparently don't want.

If anyone wants the best DOF control, the widest lens selection, and the best possible IQ, then they should buy a FF camera. If they are birders or sports photographers, then they might need a DSLR. There are very many nice ones available today.

But, if anyone in interested in having a smaller and more portable camera that still provides exceptionally good image quality, then MILC could be the system for them.

Different strokes for different folks. It's good to have all these choices available to us. What you call a problem really isn't a problem at all. It is just having more options.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,348
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

If I could only have one camera then I'm not sure how I would answer this.

I owned an XP1 and wanted so much to like it. It was almost a great camera. The lack of Apple support (now fixed 18 months later) killed it for me in the end. However it did have other foibles that made it less than ideal for me personally.

I replaced it with a Panasonic Lumix GH3 which is close to a shrunken DSLR, has 2 good f2.8 stabilised zooms covering the equivalent of 24-200, has blinding AF with reasonable tracking, is weather sealed and shoots great video if you want to do that.

I have 2 Nikon D3s bodies and a D2Xs body plus a bag of f2.8 and f1.4 lenses if I need the things they offer.

The GH3 is a good machine. It has too much consumer bloatware on it (like scene modes and so on) for my personal tastes but I can just ignore that junk. As a light, fast alternative that delivers pretty good IQ when shot in RAW (I don't shoot jpegs) it makes a respectable alternative with some things in it that I prefer over the Nikons (such as wireless shooting with my iPhone!).

Whether it will stand up to hard use I do not know, because Panasonic do not publish MTBF data for the shutter mechanism etc. Time will tell I guess. It also lacks a few things like a lock on the card door and two SD slots.

nicoboston Regular Member • Posts: 200
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

Are you trying to convince the world that "mirrorless" cameras and DSLR are actually different?

Good to know:-D

In addition, what is a "Fuji X" exactly?

Because I see a total 8 "X' cameras on the Fujifilm site, and they are not all the same... I think your "mirrorless" definition is quite confusing...

In other words, I think it's just another page of useless blah-blah. Have fun with your cameras, make pictures, and don't try to convince us that a wheel should be circular.

Beat Traveller Contributing Member • Posts: 744
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

I don't get why the EVF is a pain in the neck. I came to an X-E1 after using a Nikon DSLR for four years, and the difference seems negligible. I'll happily get used to having a refresh rate if it means I can zoom to check focus.

Also I call bollocks about full frame being affordable. 'Cheaper than ever' does not equate to 'affordable'. For the entire cost of what I'm planning to spend on the X-system (3 lenses and the body), I would only get the body of a full-frame camera. And as for the cost of primes, you get what you pay for. Even with full frame. Some of those cheaper nifty fifties aren't built terribly well, which is why they go for tuppence on Ebay.

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Rod McD Veteran Member • Posts: 6,358
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.

I agree with you but not for the reasons you stated.  Ie I agree that 35mm SLRs weren't king.  15-20 years ago I was doing pretty much exactly the same thing - landscape, architecture, and some product photography in medium format.  Some LF too.  However, I think you're relying on an argument about format size rather than camera type,  ie the benefits were about 120 film versus 35mm film, rather than SLR versus non-SLR (RFs).   SLRs and RFs also came in 120 film formats.  Very good they were too.

Rod

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Rod McD Veteran Member • Posts: 6,358
Re: Read this before you buy a Fuji X.
1

Hi,

I read the original blog article - and agree with some of his thoughts, perhaps not all.  But it's not an either/or matter and I don't think he's saying that.  My gauge is that the future includes both DSLRs and mirror-less cameras, probably on an ongoing basis.  And compacts and smart-phones.  I expect to be using them all and enjoying each for different purposes.

Choice is good.  As far as I can see we have more choice as photographers and better technology than we've ever had in the past.  And we're likely to be offered even more interesting products over the next few years.  People don't have to justify their preferences. Just make your own decisions and enjoy your photography.

Cheers, Rod

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John Carson Veteran Member • Posts: 4,251
Re: Jocachim... why I think you're wrong

Marty4650 wrote:

[lots of good stuff]

Really excellent post. Summed up the situation brilliantly.

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john carson

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