Is open software the only option...

Started May 6, 2013 | Discussions
Marcin 3M
Marcin 3M Senior Member • Posts: 1,591
Is open software the only option...

that we can trust?

There are many projects in image processing history, that disapear, and left users alone. Photostyler, Picture publisher, rawshooter - just name a few.

Changes on the market or some decisions taken by managers wipes the product, or puts it out of range of many.

After recent experiences I am almost sure, that free and open software is the only option. I hope that Gimp finally become mature piece of software. I'm also waiting for this kind of raw processor (lightzone maybe, or ufraw). Digikam can be alternative for image management...

I'm  about to donate creators of free software rather than buy cs6 upgrade ( anyway, final one, as cluod is no option for me ).

What do You think?

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Marcin_3M

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Sailor Blue
Sailor Blue Forum Pro • Posts: 12,575
Re: Is open software the only option...

There just aren't any other programs as good as Photoshop and Lightroom that I can find.  Some programs are good, very good in fact, but I have never found one with as many features or is as easy to use (once you learn how).

All other rhetoric aside, the reason Adobe is going to the Cloud is to make more money.  By no longer selling stand alone versions they will eliminate piracy.  Expect other software manufacturers to follow suit.

If you chose other software then you will just have to put up with fewer features or a more difficult to use interface.  It is up to you.

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Lucas_
Lucas_ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,055
Re: Is open software the only option...

Sailor Blue wrote:

There just aren't any other programs as good as Photoshop and Lightroom that I can find.  Some programs are good, very good in fact, but I have never found one with as many features or is as easy to use (once you learn how).

I agree about Photoshop, but Lightroom has not impressed me at all. If you want to use it only as a RAW converter, it's nothing more than Photoshop's ACR, so I just use Photoshop! Looks like most people like Lightroom's file management system, but it doesn't help me either, since I've been doing my files management for some years just using small programs like Image Ingester and Syncbase. I have no problem in dealing with the over 100.000 different image files and their back ups, both RAW and jpg, stored in five 1TB hard disks.

All other rhetoric aside, the reason Adobe is going to the Cloud is to make more money.  By no longer selling stand alone versions they will eliminate piracy.  Expect other software manufacturers to follow suit

It may be too expensive for many other smaller software designers to follow that.

I also wonder why Microsoft hasn't done that yet..., perhaps Adobe is taking too big a risk!

If you chose other software then you will just have to put up with fewer features or a more difficult to use interface.  It is up to you.

I have no doubt that it will cause some pain, nevertheless I'm also sure there are several other software developers that are quite capable to fill the feature gaps when demand calls for it. Time will tell.

Regards,

... Lucas

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Antioch Senior Member • Posts: 2,051
Re: Is open software the only option...

Lucas_ wrote:

Sailor Blue wrote:

There just aren't any other programs as good as Photoshop and Lightroom that I can find.  Some programs are good, very good in fact, but I have never found one with as many features or is as easy to use (once you learn how).

I agree about Photoshop, but Lightroom has not impressed me at all. If you want to use it only as a RAW converter, it's nothing more than Photoshop's ACR, so I just use Photoshop! Looks like most people like Lightroom's file management system, but it doesn't help me either, since I've been doing my files management for some years just using small programs like Image Ingester and Syncbase. I have no problem in dealing with the over 100.000 different image files and their back ups, both RAW and jpg, stored in five 1TB hard disks.

All other rhetoric aside, the reason Adobe is going to the Cloud is to make more money.  By no longer selling stand alone versions they will eliminate piracy.  Expect other software manufacturers to follow suit

It may be too expensive for many other smaller software designers to follow that.

I also wonder why Microsoft hasn't done that yet..., perhaps Adobe is taking too big a risk!

Microsoft is also doing it. Microsoft Office 365 is one of them.

Apparently this cloud based computing is due to the large number of Smartphones, where most everything is in the cloud, due to the low storage capabilities and Calculating Capabilities of said phones.

If you chose other software then you will just have to put up with fewer features or a more difficult to use interface.  It is up to you.

I have no doubt that it will cause some pain, nevertheless I'm also sure there are several other software developers that are quite capable to fill the feature gaps when demand calls for it. Time will tell.

Regards,

... Lucas

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Marcin 3M
OP Marcin 3M Senior Member • Posts: 1,591
Re: Is open software the only option...

We will see...

Cs5/6 will last in most users pcs for 10 or so years.

Its quite lot of time for competition to fill the gap.

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Marcin_3M

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Antioch Senior Member • Posts: 2,051
Re: Is open software the only option...

Marcin 3M wrote:

We will see...

Cs5/6 will last in most users pcs for 10 or so years.

Its quite lot of time for competition to fill the gap.

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Marcin_3M

Only reason the majority upgraded was due to New Camera's, else we would still be using Photoshop 7.

Regards from Antioch

dlkeller Veteran Member • Posts: 6,922
Re: Is open software the only option...

Could also have a problem when windows 9/10l/11 etc. comes out.

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Dave

glacierpete Senior Member • Posts: 1,917
Re: Is open software the only option...
richardplondon
richardplondon Forum Pro • Posts: 10,676
Re: Is open software the only option...

Only reason the majority upgraded was due to New Camera's, else we would still be using Photoshop 7.

Yes, that is what drove PS upgrades for me in the past. Glad to see the back of that (with LR).

If the pixel and layer editing features of an older version of PS were and continue to be sufficient for us (bearing in mind that when first released, we were quite happy to accept them as almost unimprovably cutting-edge), then we can either keep using that, or else get some further updated features still, by running the very latest Elements instead.

As for the Raw conversion, Lightroom users do get the very latest ACR conversion at a lower regular upgrade cost, than on even the previous Photoshop upgrade treadmill.

As a CS5 user myself, the only remaining justification for upgrading to CS6 -  that I would be able to maintain the onward upgradeability of my perpetual license - has been weakened by this announcement. I was feeling a bit stubborn about getting "pushed" into an upgrade that I didn't particularly need for functional reasons - putting it off - now glad I did.

Once / IF Elements gains layer groups, and rectifies one or two other frustrating omissions, I'd probably be sufficiently happy with that, in practice, or CS5 - plus Lightroom.

If Adobe can encourage home and small-scale photographers to stay current on Elements and on Lightroom both, with many people adopting every upgrade as it comes (since the cost of doing this is accessible for many), that's a reasonable revenue stream without feeling like too much of an imposition. AFAIK this path, including the ability to skip version upgrades as you wish, remains available.

The user whose software funds itself, by contrast, probably has nothing to fear - expenditure will likely have been planned for adopting all upgrades anyway, and the delivery model is not such an issue - unless internet access is a problem in your particular circumstance, denying you the beneficial use of Cloud features.

RP

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Marcin 3M
OP Marcin 3M Senior Member • Posts: 1,591
Re: Is open software the only option...

dlkeller wrote:

Could also have a problem when windows 9/10l/11 etc. comes out.

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Dave

I know.

But WINE is still present

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Marcin_3M

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Marcin 3M
OP Marcin 3M Senior Member • Posts: 1,591
Re: Is open software the only option...

Niece, but no guarantee that it will not follow Rawshooter way.

IMO the only option is open source, free software. Commercial branches are welcome, but the core has to bee free.

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Marcin_3M

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Marcin 3M
OP Marcin 3M Senior Member • Posts: 1,591
Re: Is open software the only option...

I don't believe that LR will remain eprpetual software for a long time.

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Marcin_3M

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glacierpete Senior Member • Posts: 1,917
Re: Is open software the only option...

Marcin 3M wrote:

Niece, but no guarantee that it will not follow Rawshooter way.

IMO the only option is open source, free software. Commercial branches are welcome, but the core has to bee free.

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Marcin_3M

As a lightroom substitute darktable looks very good when you are on linux or mac.

http://www.darktable.org/

Dan Marchant Senior Member • Posts: 2,844
You mean "will be the only option".

Marcin 3M wrote:

After recent experiences I am almost sure, that free and open software is the only option. I hope that Gimp finally become mature piece of software. I'm also waiting for this kind of raw processor (lightzone maybe, or ufraw). Digikam can be alternative for image management...

By your own admission the free software isn't mature (or as mature as the paid for tools) yet so it isn't yet an option. What is more just as many free software packages get abandoned as paid ones so even if a piece of free software is suitable it may not exist in a years time.

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richardplondon
richardplondon Forum Pro • Posts: 10,676
Re: Is open software the only option...

Marcin 3M wrote:

I don't believe that LR will remain eprpetual software for a long time.

We'll have to see - but it'll do for the meanwhile.

Just to give it a fair chance, I have just priced out CC membership on the Adobe UK site, and for a single CS product such as Photoshop (CS3 or later) you can get on at slightly less than the cost of an upgrade to the current version, if you also spread that cost over 18 months. And since you pay it progressively and smoothly, you get onto future versions as they arrive (and also onto the latest version right now) without needing to suddenly pay out a lump sum up front.

The significant points are IMO:

the only situation where your perpetual license (on whatever version it stalls at) becomes unusable, is where YOU have changed something - your OS, or your voluntary participation in some Adobe offer which cancels that contract and replaces it with something else

such cost comparisons presume that you would have upgraded every version (though as of CS6, skipping conventional upgrades of a perpetual license would have stranded you in any case)

the ability to stop and resume may not apply in the future, at this initial adoption rate - since the cost with the full Suite is much lower in a contracted-longer-period setup, than in a month-by-month setup

and the big one: if ceasing payments mean you have to stop using the software (and get Elements or something, to fill the gap).

RP

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Don Glenn Contributing Member • Posts: 854
Re: Is open software the only option...

dlkeller wrote:

Could also have a problem when windows 9/10l/11 etc. comes out.

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Dave

And, much more likely for some, the next version of OSX...  I am personally not in this category, but I have heard secondhand that this is much more of an issue than Windows 9, 10, 11, ...

Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,854
Re: Is open software the only option...

richardplondon wrote:

Marcin 3M wrote:

I don't believe that LR will remain eprpetual software for a long time.

We'll have to see - but it'll do for the meanwhile.

Just to give it a fair chance, I have just priced out CC membership on the Adobe UK site, and for a single CS product such as Photoshop (CS3 or later) you can get on at slightly less than the cost of an upgrade to the current version, if you also spread that cost over 18 months. And since you pay it progressively and smoothly, you get onto future versions as they arrive (and also onto the latest version right now) without needing to suddenly pay out a lump sum up front.

I'm afraid I'm rather more pessimistic.

As for UK prices: a CS6 (Photoshop-only) upgrade is around £190 (Amazon).

Until CS6 you could upgrade every third release (up to 5 years at 18-month cycles), so the upgrade cost over 5 years works out at £3.17 per month.  Now you have to upgrade everytime, so on 18-month upgrades that costs £10.55 a month.  Adobe is talking of moving to a 12-month upgrade cycle, but that doesn't benefit users.  There's no implication that they are putting 50% more software developers in place, so we just get fewer new features per upgrade, and doesn't really affect the cost.

The CC price for a single product (e.g. Photoshop) is £17.58 (ignoring any one-year-only discount to existing users).  That's 66% price rise for those that upgrade photoshop every time, or in the old days when we could upgrade every 3 it represents a whopping 555% price rise.

As for LR remaining a perpetual licence: well, Tom Hogarty says LR5 will remain a stand-alone product, but I don't read that as a commitment (or even an indication) that it will remain stand-alone long term.

I'd really like to stay with Adobe, but to be blunt, my trust in them has taken quite a knock.

The idea that LR gets a similar cloud lock-in and I'm left with 65k images (currently) in an LR catalog is not appealing, and I'm looking for an escape strategy in case I need one.

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Simon

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brebis Junior Member • Posts: 35
Are they mad?

I fail to understand Adobe's move here... It's bound to be a failure IMO.

ranalli Senior Member • Posts: 1,016
Re: Are they mad?

brebis wrote:

I fail to understand Adobe's move here... It's bound to be a failure IMO.

I don't like it one bit but they're not mad.  They're making a very gutsy move to push their revenue even higher.

Understand that Adobe at this point is going nowhere bad.  The entire creative world has not only invested in their software, but invested in the training, and more importantly time to learn it and keep up on it.

They could care less about hobbyists dropping PS...most people aren't very advanced users anyway.

But for real workers in the industry to drop it?  Not gonna happen and Adobe knows this.  There is an entire industry and secondary industries built around PS and they're all going to back Adobe otherwise their own livelihood would suffer as well.  Adobe knows this and is banking on exactly that.

I went to PS recently and changed my whole workflow from the formerly Nikon suite; just wasn't powerful enough.

I did, however, try GIMP as a free option before I bit the bullet on CS6.  Too bad that program is just as much a piece of s**t as when I tried it a decade ago.  Probably does everything that PS does but has an AWFUL UI.

Marcin 3M
OP Marcin 3M Senior Member • Posts: 1,591
Re: Is open software the only option...

As for LR remaining a perpetual licence: well, Tom Hogarty says LR5 will remain a stand-alone product, but I don't read that as a commitment (or even an indication) that it will remain stand-alone long term.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the same they told about photoshop when version cs6 arrived.

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