The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

Started Apr 30, 2013 | Discussions
fongg
fongg Regular Member • Posts: 291
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

True that my DP3M makes it hard to go back to other Bayer CMOS based cameras, images of which just look flat & uninteresting.  But I'm still with my Leica M9P + some 21/35/50 lenses, as my core gears.  The DP3m is just for compensating the longer focal length shortfall.  Both Leica DNG & Sigma X3F give some unique rendering and both have plenty of room for post processing.

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argyrotype Contributing Member • Posts: 597
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

I even got great results with teh 50-500 Bigma on my SD-10, wish I hadn't sold the outfit---8 lenses, mostly EX, including the excellent 100-300 and 15-30, both macros,  ....sigh!!

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the photographer formerly known as 'Kallitype'

jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

I do not think it is bias. I buy camera because I like what I see in picture result not brand name. if I see difference compare to other cameras, then there is difference. no sense on still compare same picture, same scene, same size. you see what you see already and get what you see.done shooting close up portraits and see detail very different on Foveon. hair follicles, skin blemish, eyelashes, eye, et.al. show more distinction on Foveon compared to bayer sensor with higher pixel count, more so with same pixel count at 16.

Merrills difference is you get best quality in just 1 picture and less work while Bayer need to do a lot of combined pictures + very long workflow to achieve close to quality of Merrills, but my opinion say still not close due to certain scenario shoot not possible to achieve in using lot of pictures. difference in microcontrast detail in one shot is not easily denied.

my opinion is Merrills are small compact camera capable of medium format quality pictures. ideal for studio and landscape use. just like medium format camera, will not win award for performance but you dont compare picture quality of medium format to APS-C and FullFrame. Foveon sensor with best Sigma lens will produce high quality picture. Merrills are special camera not for everyone. but pictures are amazing.

Hardy Steiner Senior Member • Posts: 2,442
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

Yes, that's also a way to do it  In regards to the Sigma SD1 Merrill: Maybe you could hire the camera with a suitable lens for some days to give it a test ride and see how you feel about it. In some countries Sigma also offers a free of charge Try-before-you-buy service, where you can keep the camera for a certain amount of days. Or maybe it is just worth waiting until the release the next one.

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DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 19,945
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

Hi Sandy

You can't avoid bias, nobody can. It's not a character flaw, it's intrinsic in the way we process information.

I saw a study the other day in which people were made to be more charitable. All the experimenters did was asked some people some questions about taboo subjects.  Then asked them to make a charitable donation. The testees were far more likely to contribute and contribute more than a control group.  The interpretation is that taboos are so powerful that even contemplating the subject momentarily induces a need to morally cleanse oneself - hence the acts of charity. Scientists protect themselves from bias by rigorous methods, peers review and statistical approaches. Mere mortals have no chance!

Now, to your photos.   I've looked and see photos so different in files size, detail, depth of field, exposure, colour etc, that looking for any subtle rendering of depth is pointless.  What I do recognise is that the Foveon shot looks good.

I also see a separation from tulip and the blurred background that is very striking.  This is not a subtle effect so I initially thought you couldn't be referring to this but maybe you are?  If so, it's very little to do with Foveon, that's a simple DOF effect, easily demonstrable with any large sensor camera.

If this is what you mean, I'd call that a perfect demonstration of confirmation bias - a positive effect observed while using a Foveon camera is attributed to some special character of Foveon rather than the real cause.  The reverse effect often seem too - some negative quality of an image is blamed on Foveon rather than the real cause.  We are all very prone to mistaking correlation for causation.

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Jim Funston Senior Member • Posts: 1,698
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

Hardy Steiner wrote:

Yes, that's also a way to do it  In regards to the Sigma SD1 Merrill: Maybe you could hire the camera with a suitable lens for some days to give it a test ride and see how you feel about it. In some countries Sigma also offers a free of charge Try-before-you-buy service, where you can keep the camera for a certain amount of days. Or maybe it is just worth waiting until the release the next one.

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Best regards,
Hardy
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Hardy, in my state there are just a handful of photography stores. The largest (which is still very small imo) that deals with our few local pro's when asked about the DPxm's stated they refuse to carry ANY Sigma products of any kind(something about getting burned once). Their focus is Nikon for high end gear.... with a extremely small representation of anything else. So to try one would mean to buy one from a NY photo store (which I primarily use for my purchases anyway as I am mostly a Sony shooter and have little to no equipment locally to do hands on with).

Dabbler
Dabbler Senior Member • Posts: 2,026
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

LOL, I would pick out the Sigma every time too, when comparing an APS-C to a 1/2.3 sensor. But really I think the D800 is one oTha few cameras that can compare to DPM2.

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Michael

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SandyF Forum Pro • Posts: 14,941
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

Dabbler wrote:

LOL, I would pick out the Sigma every time too, when comparing an APS-C to a 1/2.3 sensor. But really I think the D800 is one oTha few cameras that can compare to DPM2.

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Michael

the comparison shows too what I hope everyone already realizes... 16MP of one camera isn't equivalent to 16MP of a different camera/sensor!

Actually though I was pleasantly surprised at the good degree of fine detail capture of foliage for the Nikon. That's one of my big things re various output. Not 'spotches' 'spotches' but rather looking for more detail than green mush LOL. But the flatness of the objects in images.. is that really due to sensor SIZE?

Best regards, Sandy
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DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 19,945
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

Hi Sandy

As I mentioned before, it would be very helpful if you could state unambiguously at this flatness, so we can all be sure we are debating the same thing eg you could edit one of your photos to draw an arrow or ring pointing out the offending area...

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Hardy Steiner Senior Member • Posts: 2,442
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

Ok, at least in the meantime you can enjoy the DP2M and who knows, maybe soon Sigma will release a DSLR that matches your requirements.

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 26,401
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

I have now looked at lots of your images, and my head is spinning

Sometimes I think I can see what you mean ... but then it eludes me.

One of the biggest differences is that the Nikon images often are not really sharp.

Another difference is that the unsharp background often is messy in the Nikon images. If its the lens or the Bayer that is to blame, I dont know.

The tulip roundness? Yeah .. I think I can see it ... but I am not sure.

The great difference in color balance also makes it hard to spot the differences. Why are so many Sigma images blue?

BTW - I guess the small sensor in the Nikon does more for losing acutance than using Bayer.

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zxaar Veteran Member • Posts: 4,110
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....
1

rattymouse wrote:

...is that I cant look at my Bayer images the same way anymore.   I took my X100 with me to Suzhou because I wanted to have a wide angle lens available.   Images off that camera, which I used to love, just dont do it for me anymore.  Not even close.

Sigh.........

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9 years of Fujifilm camera usage, ended by rampant fanboyism.

I wanted to be convinced as I was mulling over Merill myself, but looking at the dpr comparometer , I concluded that pentax K-5 IIs was slightly better than the merill .

Do you have any image to really show that sigma is truely better than bayern. DPR's comparometer does not show it.

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jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

there is topic on pictures taken by d7000 and dp2m.  difference is very big.

jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

look for topic by lin evans, "just an observation".

Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 36,392
No, but probably more the sound of a broken record
1

Laurence Matson wrote:

pixel_peeper wrote:

Try resizing the D800E shots down to about 20 Mpx, and they'll probably look as good on a monitor as your DP2M shots.

This statement has been flying around here for as long as Foveon changed the technology game plan for imagers. Your operative words of "try" and "probably" say it all. The answer is they won't. But keep trying for a probable result.

Because for a while it has also been proven at least by some resized down bayers look pretty good next to Sigmas.  Of course in your commentary some of the current foveon artifacts are probably ignored as well as superior dynamic range by the Nikon d800e's sensor which depending of the subject being photographed will make one look better than the other (and pets not talk about high iso in color), but maybe you also meant those cases where the d800e would indeed look better as part of "not looking the same. "

Certainly both are extremely capable in their better circumstances.

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Laurence
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"You can dream, and it comes true, as long as you can get out of the certitudes. As long as you can get a pioneering spirit, as long as you can explore, as long as you can think off the grid. So much time we spend in our education, in our lives is spent learning certitudes, learning habits, trying to fight against the unknown, to avoid the doubts and question marks. As soon as you start to love the unknown, to love the doubts, to love the question marks, life becomes an absolutely fabulous adventure."
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victorgv Senior Member • Posts: 1,496
Re: No, but probably more the sound of a broken record

Just stupid experiment these two images resized down sd1 and d800e from dpreview d800e one is half size and sd1 resized to the same dimensions (it should put sd1 to disadvantage i think).

one of the images was adjusted saturation,exposure contrast and tint (not very good job just dont tear me apart please ) so they will look more similar. Still pretty easy to guess wich one is sigma and wich one is d800e.

Raist3d wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

pixel_peeper wrote:

Try resizing the D800E shots down to about 20 Mpx, and they'll probably look as good on a monitor as your DP2M shots.

This statement has been flying around here for as long as Foveon changed the technology game plan for imagers. Your operative words of "try" and "probably" say it all. The answer is they won't. But keep trying for a probable result.

Because for a while it has also been proven at least by some resized down bayers look pretty good next to Sigmas.  Of course in your commentary some of the current foveon artifacts are probably ignored as well as superior dynamic range by the Nikon d800e's sensor which depending of the subject being photographed will make one look better than the other (and pets not talk about high iso in color), but maybe you also meant those cases where the d800e would indeed look better as part of "not looking the same. "

Certainly both are extremely capable in their better circumstances.

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Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"I thought: I read something in a book, I dream, I imagine, and it comes true. And it is exactly like this in life.
"You can dream, and it comes true, as long as you can get out of the certitudes. As long as you can get a pioneering spirit, as long as you can explore, as long as you can think off the grid. So much time we spend in our education, in our lives is spent learning certitudes, learning habits, trying to fight against the unknown, to avoid the doubts and question marks. As soon as you start to love the unknown, to love the doubts, to love the question marks, life becomes an absolutely fabulous adventure."
Bertrand Piccard, a Swiss person
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

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zxaar Veteran Member • Posts: 4,110
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....
1

jennyrae wrote:

look for topic by lin evans, "just an observation".

Thnak you. I looked, even though Sigma merill does look better in that comparison, I have few comments about that.

1. The Nikon image looked as if less sharpening was applied to it, so I downloaded and applied this to it, unsharp maskl radius 50, amount 8.  Then unsharpmask radius 0.25 amount 200. Now Nikon images also looks sharper, but Sigma still seems to hold more detail.

2. The Sigma was shot at F5.6 where usually the lenses are at their best, where as Nikon image was at F11 , where usually you have softer image due to defraction. So that was really unfair to Nikon on that comparison.

3. Given the above two facts, if shot properly and sharpened properly Nikon image would be much better, this makes me conclude that if it was Pentax K-5 IIS that does not have AA filter, the image would look very close to Sigma.

4. DPR's image comparomete indeed does confirm (3), compared to pentax K-5 IIs , I could not find a single spot where I could have given advantage to Sigma.

PS: The samples at Sigma's site are much better adverts of Merill's image quality.

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 36,392
There's no need for that, you are missing the point

You picked a lab shot illuminated with a lab light at dpreview at the lowest ISO.  The issue is not whether the Sigma can do better or about the same as a Nikon D800E, but that, such won't be always the case and both cameras have domains where they excel.

It's the unilateral mantra that the Foveon is unilaterally better the myth I am pointing out.  Both have tradeoffs.  And I am talking not from theory but from experience.

Want to see an extreme? How about a case where a Pentax Q does better color than a Sigma DP3M?  Does that mean the Q is better than the Sigma?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51368557

Your experiment hardly proves anything honestly, except that in the very particular (and artificial) situation and set of conditions you picked the Sigma apparently does a little better (were these also two raws or is the Nikon a JPEG?).

I am pretty sure if both cameras were shot at ISO 400 in mixed light it would be also pretty easy tp pick which one is which

victorgv wrote:

Just stupid experiment these two images resized down sd1 and d800e from dpreview d800e one is half size and sd1 resized to the same dimensions (it should put sd1 to disadvantage i think).

one of the images was adjusted saturation,exposure contrast and tint (not very good job just dont tear me apart please ) so they will look more similar. Still pretty easy to guess wich one is sigma and wich one is d800e.

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 36,392
Completely false, sorry

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Yellow Mountain wrote:

It's great until a person enters the picture in shade. Skin tones look horrific & ghostly. Here are some example screen captures from photos by rattymouse in Suzhou:

That's why I shoot +0.7 exp, because that issue goes away.

Part of the issue goes away you mean. You just lost highlight range in doing that. The DR of the DPMerrils is less than the Nikon D800's line sensor.

But also it's a fantasy that other cameras do not have shadow issues, as witnessed by the horrible shadow color noise in a Canon 5D Mk III and the grainy shadow of a D800 in this post:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51364990

It's completely false all cameras do. Cameras around the Sony K-5/D7000 sensor certainly don't - they have vast shadow range. Far more than the current Foveon.

In fact, the very link you are linking to, shows how the Nikon is doing quite quite well.

At least the DP-2M maintains detail, which has always been the greatest strength...

No, not in the shadows like that. You start losing due to noise. And you are forced to shoot at the lowest of ISO's to make the best of the shadow DR.

in any image with people in shadow you simply are not going to be looking at them very closely unless they are a point of focus.

The problem is that on the Merryl at ISO 200 the shadows lose color to cover for the color splotchy noise.  This doesn't make the Sigma useless or the like. What it makes it, it's a camera with tradeoffs. Now, that I will agree it's like every other camera.

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zxaar Veteran Member • Posts: 4,110
Re: No, but probably more the sound of a broken record
8

victorgv wrote:

Just stupid experiment these two images resized down sd1 and d800e from dpreview d800e one is half size and sd1 resized to the same dimensions (it should put sd1 to disadvantage i think).

one of the images was adjusted saturation,exposure contrast and tint (not very good job just dont tear me apart please ) so they will look more similar. Still pretty easy to guess wich one is sigma and wich one is d800e.

see any advantage in Sigma, certainly not to the level what OP is making out to be. To me in fact APC image is bit sharper if you look above Micky mouse or around it. (tak eoriginal from Gallery)

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