No more SLT!

Started Apr 29, 2013 | Discussions
Dirk W Senior Member • Posts: 2,912
Re: Bring it On !

I used to think that way. I had the A35, NEX7 and NEX6 and really liked the EVFs. Due to Sony's jumpiness and unclear road map, instead of upgrading to A77, I switched to Nikon D7100. I must say it was much easier than expected to go back to OVF. It's more a binocular feeling about it and the camera info is nicely displayed on the bottom OLED screen under the OVF. It is nice that there is no lag and that I can also use it before I turn on the camera.

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Lucas_
Lucas_ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: No more SLT!
1

cosmonaut wrote:

I really don't see how the mirror issue even matters. For months before the first SLTs hit the market all I read was it will never work, it was tried in the film era and the view finder was to dark and yada, yada. no one figured on the EVF. Yes it works and works well. My a850 didn't quit working when the SLT came out and my a99 won't quit working when the SLT is a thing of the past. If need be I will upgrade to the next Sony FF mirror or not.

I just don't see what the big deal is and I don't see it that Sony has tried to hood wink or fool anyone. The a850/900 were and are still great performing cameras and my a99 will be for many years.

....

You're quite right. I'm sure I'll keep taking many great pictures with my A99 for years to come and my A-mount lenses ( minoltas, Sigmas, Tamrons, Sonys ) will also be performing well in the new mirrorless A-mount bodies in the future!

... Lucas

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Bring it On !
1

Dirk W wrote:

I used to think that way. I had the A35, NEX7 and NEX6 and really liked the EVFs. Due to Sony's jumpiness and unclear road map, instead of upgrading to A77, I switched to Nikon D7100. I must say it was much easier than expected to go back to OVF. It's more a binocular feeling about it and the camera info is nicely displayed on the bottom OLED screen under the OVF. It is nice that there is no lag and that I can also use it before I turn on the camera.

OVF was DOA to me on DSLR. May be it holds some value on FF DSLRs with its own limitations, on APS-C... no way in hell I'm buying one.

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Lucas_
Lucas_ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: Obsolete
1

havoc315 wrote:

Whether SLTs or traditional mirrors like Nikon, Canon & Pentax, these are carry overs from film SLR cameras that really don't fit in the digital world.  Sony has gone with the EVF, while the others continue to hold on to optical viewfinders from the film days.  Another example is the labeling of "drive modes", on DSLRs, a carryover from mechanical film SLRs that doesn't fit in the digital era.

Micro four-thirds have some shortcomings in sensor size and noise above ISO 800.  Two new cameras, the Panasonic GH3 and G6, are feature and function rich, yet hit that ISO noise limit.

The challenge is for Sony to develop a mirrorless camera with a large sensor and of course EVF that can at least equal the ISO performance of the recent SLTs.  That would be as innovative as the SLT design.

They already have done that with the Nex system.

I'm just hoping they create something with a bit more dSLR functionality, ibis, and the A-mount.

....

I haven't seen any FF NEX yet. IMHO FF should be kept for A-mount, but that's me ...! -P

... Lucas

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Lucas_
Lucas_ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: My idea of hybrid PDAF + CDAF + OFV + LV
1

Jokica wrote:

I am coming from NEX forum, I would very much like to hear your opinion.

Since the concept of new camera is mystery, this is my idea of hybrid PDAF + CDAF + OFV + LV

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50947986

....

I don't believe Sony will ever go back to OVF. The EVF, which is constantly improving, is here to stay.

... Lucas

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Lucas_
Lucas_ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: No more SLT!
1

....

As I'm proud today in having an A-mount Sony A99 FF, with an awesome EVF and fixed "translucent" mirror ( no vibrations ), I'm sure I'll be proud to have a future A-mount Sony FF body with EVF and without a mirror!

... Lucas

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: My idea of hybrid PDAF + CDAF + OFV + LV

Jokica wrote:

I am coming from NEX forum, I would very much like to hear your opinion.

Since the concept of new camera is mystery, this is my idea of hybrid PDAF + CDAF + OFV + LV

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50947986

EVF is a major reason why Live View is practical in SLTs without giving up AF performance. Whereas, in OVF based systems (DSLRs), Live View is more of a nuisance and literally forces use of view finder even when it might not be convenient.

Also, while an OVF with no blackout and electronic overlay (to mimic EVF) might be ideal, we should also consider the fact that practically every refraction and reflection of light results in some loss of light. This is also why even the 35mm DSLRs of the past lacked the brightness through the OVF of the Rangefinder cameras, much less the popular APS-C (and smaller sensors) in digital DSLRs today.

The only thread mirrors are hanging onto is for fast AF systems. If AF performance can be achieved without using a mirror, there is absolutely no reason to use one. EVF has also been evolving, and unlike OVFs which have been in use for decades leading to practically no improvement (except trying to match EVF for information overlay), EVF technology is a growth area, and will be for several years.

As far as a mirror-less fast AF performance with APS-C and FF sensors is concerned, it could be PDAF, or something ground-breaking, a whole new system. The only surprise, if this rumor comes to fruition, is the quickness of development. As a result, I still think we’re a few years behind and many will be blaming Sony for “promising” something dramatically new in 2014.

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inFocus Contributing Member • Posts: 641
Re: Ok..
4

AllMankind wrote:

Personally, I would never buy an SLT camera, but that's me.

Thanks for letting me know, I'm forever in your debt.

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What's that noise?

AllMankind
AllMankind Contributing Member • Posts: 564
Re: Bring it On !

topstuff wrote:

but I am over having to peer through an optical tunnel to see the image.

You might want to try using a 'GOOD' FF DSLR, such as the A850/A900.

I'm never going back to OVF.  Never. The 5D2 and lenses will be sold to buy whatever FF mirrorless Sony launch (provided it has an EVF)

And I will NEVER go EVF in my FF DSLR.  In fact, that is why I have now abandoned Sony and gone back to Nikon.

An EVF in my mirrorless is fine, but NOT in my workhorse camera.

But to each their own.  Definately NOT worth arguing about.

Rab G Regular Member • Posts: 398
Re: No more SLT!

Hi All has the A99 not pointed the way forward SLR type body with A-mount but more focus points built into the sensor.

There was supposed to be a replacement to the A77 but after comments made re the A58 may be Sony stopped that to concentrate on the next step in camera design.

Although NEX cameras are good the shape does not appeal to me and probably lots of others so a mirror less APS-C and FF may not be far away?

After all Fuji did this  http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/5/fujifilmpd

What ever happens it will be interesting!!!

moimoi
moimoi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,244
Re: No more SLT!

Lucas_ wrote:

....

As I'm proud today in having an A-mount Sony A99 FF, with an awesome EVF and fixed "translucent" mirror ( no vibrations ), I'm sure I'll be proud to have a future A-mount Sony FF body with EVF and without a mirror!

Sounds as if the photography world never existed before the SLT.  Mirror flapping is really not that bad.  If the image is blurry, it is more likely due to poor photographic skills rather than the camera itself.

I am very happy with my flappy mirrors...

... Lucas

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: No more SLT!

Rab G wrote:

Hi All has the A99 not pointed the way forward SLR type body with A-mount but more focus points built into the sensor.

There was supposed to be a replacement to the A77 but after comments made re the A58 may be Sony stopped that to concentrate on the next step in camera design.

Although NEX cameras are good the shape does not appeal to me and probably lots of others so a mirror less APS-C and FF may not be far away?

After all Fuji did this  http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/5/fujifilmpd

What ever happens it will be interesting!!!

IMO, rumors are being taken too seriously and worse, in a completely different way. But then, it is only a matter of time before mirror is rendered a moot point in a camera... DSLR and DSLT alike. It is bound to happen. Whether it is as early as 2014? I find that hard to believe. It will take an impressive ground-breaking effort to break the mold.

And even as we bid goodbye to mirrors based AF system, with Sony A-mount, we will see a continued A-mount and E-mount duo in the foreseeable future.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: No more SLT!

moimoi wrote:

Lucas_ wrote:

....

As I'm proud today in having an A-mount Sony A99 FF, with an awesome EVF and fixed "translucent" mirror ( no vibrations ), I'm sure I'll be proud to have a future A-mount Sony FF body with EVF and without a mirror!

Sounds as if the photography world never existed before the SLT.  Mirror flapping is really not that bad.  If the image is blurry, it is more likely due to poor photographic skills rather than the camera itself.

I am very happy with my flappy mirrors...

Photography also existed before there were mirrors. And people will be VERY happy when they don't have to deal with the tantrums of mirrors either.

... Lucas

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moimoi
moimoi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,244
Re: My idea of hybrid PDAF + CDAF + OFV + LV

Frenske wrote:

Jokica wrote:

I am coming from NEX forum, I would very much like to hear your opinion.

Since the concept of new camera is mystery, this is my idea of hybrid PDAF + CDAF + OFV + LV

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50947986

Nah most ASP-C  cameras have horrible OVF: dim tunnel vision. Taking away 30% of the light for AUX AF sensor will make it even more dim.

That's true.  The only OVF I really enjoy is from the a850/a900.  I used to have a Nikon D300s, it was much smaller and dimmer.  There is no excuse (rather than saving money) to produce a superb OVF.  Older 35mm film cameras had much better OVF than those found on the APS-C cameras.

I believe EVF is here to stay; no matter how high some dinophotographer will jump.

Yes, it is starting to be more mature.  I think the next generation of EVF would be the way to go (larger MP and resolution, more dynamic range, and no lag).  I also live bright OVF.  Personally, I would crave for an hybrid version.  Huge OVF (same as a850/a900) + EVF finder.

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Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 17,816
Re: Unfair!

sean lancaster wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dirk W wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

Dirk W wrote:

Poor people who just invested in an expensive SLT body that will soon be outdated by some superior totally new successor technology

Poor people who just invested in an OVF SLR body that is already outdated.

An OVF DSLR is not outdated, because it does not and will never have anything that is permanently blocking light from the sensor. Sony, a couple of years later, seems finally also have understood that this is not good.

An OVF DSLR without live view or video and with a sensor not as good as the SLT that permanently blocks light is outdated.

I think every DSLR made since 2008 has live view, and every one since 2009 has video - mostly HD video except for a very cheap model or two. So yes, dslr's from 4+ years ago can in some ways be considered outdated.

I bought a Nikon D600 and it arrived with many spots on the sensor so I sent it back. But the live view left much to be desired. I now have a Canon 6D and played with the live view yesterday for the first time. It's very slow.

My Sony NEX 5N seems generations ahead of the live view implementations on both the Canon and Nikon full frame systems (never mind the benefit of touch screen and articulation on the NEX 5N). Sony really gets this right compared to the big bigwigs.

True, the live view on DSLR's isn't as fast-focusing as it is on some (most?) mirrorless cameras. But that's an add-on to the camera. The DSLR is about an optical through the lens viewfinder and the focus performance attained in that mode of use. Would it be nice to have faster live view on a DSLR? Sure, why not? But slow live view is only a minor point with me; I would buy a DSLR even if none of them came with Live View.

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It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 17,816
Re: Unfair!

Clayton1985 wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dirk W wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

Dirk W wrote:

Poor people who just invested in an expensive SLT body that will soon be outdated by some superior totally new successor technology

Poor people who just invested in an OVF SLR body that is already outdated.

An OVF DSLR is not outdated, because it does not and will never have anything that is permanently blocking light from the sensor. Sony, a couple of years later, seems finally also have understood that this is not good.

An OVF DSLR without live view or video and with a sensor not as good as the SLT that permanently blocks light is outdated.

I think every DSLR made since 2008 has live view, and every one since 2009 has video - mostly HD video except for a very cheap model or two. So yes, dslr's from 4+ years ago can in some ways be considered outdated.

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It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

I consider the live view in every DSLR made since 2008 to be outdated (at least every DSLR that I've used).   I'm optimistic that Sony is looking for a way to provide us with the best of both worlds - not a way to remove the mirror and give us DSLR quality live view... that is a win-lose proposition that I'm not interested in.

Yes, it's true DSLR's "live view" is much slower focusing than on some mirrorless cameras. I won't dispute that. But the reason for the DSLR - the optical TTL viewfinder and fast autofocus and tracking are the reason it exists. My DSLR's live view is definitely slow, especially in bad light - but I haven't used it to take 1% of my photos. I only use it when I use the articulated screen to get a shot from a difficult angle, otherwise I would have no desire to use live view at all.

Different users, different needs.

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It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Unfair!

Midwest wrote:

sean lancaster wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dirk W wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

Dirk W wrote:

Poor people who just invested in an expensive SLT body that will soon be outdated by some superior totally new successor technology

Poor people who just invested in an OVF SLR body that is already outdated.

An OVF DSLR is not outdated, because it does not and will never have anything that is permanently blocking light from the sensor. Sony, a couple of years later, seems finally also have understood that this is not good.

An OVF DSLR without live view or video and with a sensor not as good as the SLT that permanently blocks light is outdated.

I think every DSLR made since 2008 has live view, and every one since 2009 has video - mostly HD video except for a very cheap model or two. So yes, dslr's from 4+ years ago can in some ways be considered outdated.

I bought a Nikon D600 and it arrived with many spots on the sensor so I sent it back. But the live view left much to be desired. I now have a Canon 6D and played with the live view yesterday for the first time. It's very slow.

My Sony NEX 5N seems generations ahead of the live view implementations on both the Canon and Nikon full frame systems (never mind the benefit of touch screen and articulation on the NEX 5N). Sony really gets this right compared to the big bigwigs.

True, the live view on DSLR's isn't as fast-focusing as it is on some (most?) mirrorless cameras. But that's an add-on to the camera. The DSLR is about an optical through the lens viewfinder and the focus performance attained in that mode of use. Would it be nice to have faster live view on a DSLR? Sure, why not? But slow live view is only a minor point with me; I would buy a DSLR even if none of them came with Live View.

More people won't.

If AF performance isn't important for you, then you may be fine with a DSLR-like Live View system. With technological advancements, we're experiencing more convenient ways to capture images, and Live View performance is becoming an integral part of it.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Unfair!

Midwest wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dirk W wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

Dirk W wrote:

Poor people who just invested in an expensive SLT body that will soon be outdated by some superior totally new successor technology

Poor people who just invested in an OVF SLR body that is already outdated.

An OVF DSLR is not outdated, because it does not and will never have anything that is permanently blocking light from the sensor. Sony, a couple of years later, seems finally also have understood that this is not good.

An OVF DSLR without live view or video and with a sensor not as good as the SLT that permanently blocks light is outdated.

I think every DSLR made since 2008 has live view, and every one since 2009 has video - mostly HD video except for a very cheap model or two. So yes, dslr's from 4+ years ago can in some ways be considered outdated.

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

I consider the live view in every DSLR made since 2008 to be outdated (at least every DSLR that I've used).   I'm optimistic that Sony is looking for a way to provide us with the best of both worlds - not a way to remove the mirror and give us DSLR quality live view... that is a win-lose proposition that I'm not interested in.

Yes, it's true DSLR's "live view" is much slower focusing than on some mirrorless cameras. I won't dispute that. But the reason for the DSLR - the optical TTL viewfinder and fast autofocus and tracking are the reason it exists. My DSLR's live view is definitely slow, especially in bad light - but I haven't used it to take 1% of my photos. I only use it when I use the articulated screen to get a shot from a difficult angle, otherwise I would have no desire to use live view at all.

Because they suck compared to EVF based systems.

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moimoi
moimoi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,244
Re: No more SLT!
1

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

moimoi wrote:

Lucas_ wrote:

....

As I'm proud today in having an A-mount Sony A99 FF, with an awesome EVF and fixed "translucent" mirror ( no vibrations ), I'm sure I'll be proud to have a future A-mount Sony FF body with EVF and without a mirror!

Sounds as if the photography world never existed before the SLT.  Mirror flapping is really not that bad.  If the image is blurry, it is more likely due to poor photographic skills rather than the camera itself.

I am very happy with my flappy mirrors...

Photography also existed before there were mirrors. And people will be VERY happy when they don't have to deal with the tantrums of mirrors either.

How long have the mirrors lasted?  More than several decades...

How long will the SLT design last?  Most likely, not a long time...

Mirror or not, as long as the camera does the job, I will be fine with it.

... Lucas

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: No more SLT!
1

moimoi wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

moimoi wrote:

Lucas_ wrote:

....

As I'm proud today in having an A-mount Sony A99 FF, with an awesome EVF and fixed "translucent" mirror ( no vibrations ), I'm sure I'll be proud to have a future A-mount Sony FF body with EVF and without a mirror!

Sounds as if the photography world never existed before the SLT.  Mirror flapping is really not that bad.  If the image is blurry, it is more likely due to poor photographic skills rather than the camera itself.

I am very happy with my flappy mirrors...

Photography also existed before there were mirrors. And people will be VERY happy when they don't have to deal with the tantrums of mirrors either.

How long have the mirrors lasted?  More than several decades... How long will the SLT design last?  Most likely, not a long time...

Only because SLT benefits a lot more with digital photography which itself is rather new. So, if SLT is no more, it would be only because digital technology would have advanced to a point where mirror-based system would be only "academic". If Sony has the solution to match SLT-like AF performance, but without the mirror, it has struck gold.

The future in digital world is... digital.

Mirror or not, as long as the camera does the job, I will be fine with it.

... Lucas

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All harsh, impolite and/or unreasonable replies will be simply ignored.
Measurebators are out of my world, photography is not about babbling behind a computer... but rather being out of your home, shoot and share photographs with other people. Shoot and Share...Thanks.

-- hide signature --

All harsh, impolite and/or unreasonable replies will be simply ignored.
Measurebators are out of my world, photography is not about babbling behind a computer... but rather being out of your home, shoot and share photographs with other people. Shoot and Share...Thanks.

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