Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter

Started Apr 25, 2013 | Discussions
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Shunda77
Shunda77 Senior Member • Posts: 1,966
Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
1

joaquin100 wrote:

The only credible confirmation:

"If you not agree with me you are a cheerleader"

No, if you don't agree with the worlds largest camera test site and other independent review sites is what I think he meant.

Hey Guys, you better agree.

Unless you want to be seen as incredibly foolish, yes, you should.

Jared Huntr OP Senior Member • Posts: 1,796
Re: If I can see it
2

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

with no problem, and I can, then it's a very practical difference.

Same question to you:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51358662

It is not clear you understand the meaning of the word 'practical'.

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 10,148
Re: The only thing around here less credible

This is not my D5200 or D7100 and the former isn't back focused at f8.  It's just soft compared to the D7100 because of the blur filter. Download the raws and see for yourself:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

If anyone went and bought a lens for $1799 that made that much difference in resolution and microcontrast, they'd be out of their minds with joy and the toast of the forum for days on end as they posted one cat picture after another :^)

Shunda77
Shunda77 Senior Member • Posts: 1,966
Astonishing
1

Truly astonishing that the cheerleaders persist in the face of impossible odds!

I feel somewhat vindicated now, the people cheering the hardest have been quite nasty on a range of topics and now I understand why.

There seems to be such a need for the new equipment to be more than it really is, almost as if the very wellbeing of certain individuals hinges on it.

I wonder if this is true for most consumer goods, I guess it probably is when it comes down to it.

In saying that, the D7100/5200 do appear to be a great new cameras from Nikon, it looks as though they have done some excellent work on their jpeg engines and that is far more relevant than the imaginary benefits of removing the AA filter.

But lets not start imagining things or further enabling those that do.

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 10,148
Re: The Pixel cramming has crept up so far

Wow, 54,000 posts.  That's really amazing!

Shunda77
Shunda77 Senior Member • Posts: 1,966
Re: Exactly
1

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

I'm having trouble with the completeness of that statement from the Nikon person, whoever he or she was.    There's more.  Fuji and Pentax have removed the AA filter for the same reason, a better picture, both to universal acclaim, and not because it wasn't needed.

Both have a lower density pixel count (along with the D800e), which obviously makes a difference, clearly there is a point of diminishing return and the D7100 is well past that point.

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 10,148
Re: If I can see it

Jared Huntr wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

with no problem, and I can, then it's a very practical difference.

Same question to you:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51358662

It is not clear you understand the meaning of the word 'practical'.

I'm not wasting a single minute of my time trying to convince you of anything.  One look at your gallery tells me everything I need to know.  Which Nikon do you have, exactly?

Shunda77
Shunda77 Senior Member • Posts: 1,966
Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
1

marike6 wrote:

If DPR cannot see the difference between the D5200 and D7100 in terms of sharpness, then they are not looking closely enough.

Yet they were looking extremely closely!

And all this talk about "real world" is utter nonsense.

What? so what do you use your camera for?

If the D5200 and D7100 show a difference in the RAW Comparison, then they will show a difference in general shooting out in the field if both cameras are shot with the same technique, the same lenses and off the same tripod.

Apparently not, and that is the whole point.

If DPR is trying to say that "with handheld snapshots it's hard to see a difference", that totally different than asserting that there is "no difference at all".

I don't see anywhere where they referenced "snapshots" at all. All they said is that the difference is so minuscule as to be effectively no difference at all. This really isn't that hard to understand

And because they say "there is no practical advantage", it's clear that they mean that for snapshots in the park, they can't tell the difference.  But it is kind of lame for a testing site to keep using silly caveats like "the real world". What real world is that?

Anything other than shooting test charts would be my guess.

Either there is a difference or there isn't.  Tests are about empirical data, not general impressions based on what they think real world usage of this camera will be.

Did you even read the review?

But just like D800E out-resolves the D800, the D7100 out-resolves the D5200.

No, it doesn't!!

The D800 may well have lower resolution than the D800e, but these cameras also have a lower pixel density than the crammed up 24mp APS-C sensor in the D7100, pixel density is a big part of the equation.

And it has zero to do with "best lenses" or any other made up caveat that DPR is trying to sell it's readers.  The D800E out-resolves the D800 because it doesn't have an OLPF to blur detail to control moire and the same is true for the D7100 and D5200.

No it isn't!!

You need to look at the data and try and understand why results may be different between a full frame sensor and an APS-C sensor.

But don't worry, your new camera is still much better than the old one so no purchase defense necessary.

A Owens Senior Member • Posts: 2,676
Re: They agree

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Canon executives must be grinding their teeth to the gums in helpless envy by now.

Not so sure. The 7100 sensor looks great but Canon seems to be concentrating on lenses. On the other hand Nikon does not have a lens that can make the D800 resolve more than the D600 (according to DXO). If that is credible it is unlikely that the D7100 will render any resolution over the 7000. I don't think Canon are that worried.
--
Alistair Owens
http://www.alistairowensphotography.com

Jared Huntr OP Senior Member • Posts: 1,796
Re: If I can see it
2

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Jared Huntr wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

with no problem, and I can, then it's a very practical difference.

Same question to you:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51358662

It is not clear you understand the meaning of the word 'practical'.

I'm not wasting a single minute of my time trying to convince you of anything.

Of course you won't....because answering that question forces you to completely undermine your own position. Your argument is indefensible in light of all the evidence presented by third parties that have no particular interest in which way the outcome of their findings fall.

One look at your gallery tells me everything I need to know.  Which Nikon do you have, exactly?

I seriously question your judgment if you think you can derive any sort of opinion from my gallery without any context or purpose behind each image.

Dirk W Senior Member • Posts: 2,348
Theoretical becomes practical in heavy cropping
5

I agree, using the full frame picture the difference will be more theoretical.

But the title says it: the more you crop, the more difference it will make.

Bird and wildlife photographers who often take pictures on a long distance with long tele lenses and still crop the pictures heavily, they can easily come down to a kind of "pixel peeping" level and then the difference in detail and sharpness becomes very visible and makes a real difference.

 Dirk W's gear list:Dirk W's gear list
Sony Alpha a6300 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 Sony a6000 Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6L IS USM Sony E 18-200mm F3.5-6.3 OSS +12 more
d3xmeister Senior Member • Posts: 1,895
Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter

What I find amusing is that when the AA filter was removed or weakend in so many other cameras from other brands, the Nikon fanboys argued like crazy it is a bad thing. They even tried to demonstrate a strong AA filter is better, this forum was full of that. Now that Nikon has done it, it's the best thing ever.

No ,,camp,, has more blind fanboys like Nikon ,,camp,,.

 d3xmeister's gear list:d3xmeister's gear list
Nikon D5100
Whalligeo Regular Member • Posts: 245
Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
1

Jared Huntr wrote:

Not that it is surprising, but it seems the cheerleading squad from the Cameralabs D7100 review mega-thread here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51316314

were wrong about how the lack of an AA filter makes a useful difference.

According to dpr:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d7100/18

"In short, even if you were willing to put the best glass available on the D7100 and shoot at a wide aperture, you're not likely, even with a lot of effort, to leverage visible benefits of the OLPF removal. While this may be a bit of a disappointment for some, the very good news is that to date we've seen no practical downside to the filter's removal for still photography. It is essentially neutral with regard to image quality."

Those cheerleaders can now be added to my 'less credible' folder for future reference.

It's a natural progression that leads the way to subsequent aa less models.

-- hide signature --

They said it couldn't be done, so I encouraged my peers not to bother.
HooRoo!

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 10,148
Which Nikon did you say you owned?

I couldn't quite make it out.

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 10,148
Re: They agree
1

A Owens wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Canon executives must be grinding their teeth to the gums in helpless envy by now.

Not so sure. The 7100 sensor looks great but Canon seems to be concentrating on lenses. On the other hand Nikon does not have a lens that can make the D800 resolve more than the D600 (according to DXO).

This is just way off.  The $119 50D outresolves the D800e without even breaking a sweat, let alone any of the gold ring stuff.  So does the 24-85VR "kit lens" center to mid. We'd need at least 50MP for that not to be the case.  The D800e smokes the D600 for ultimate detail.  You don't give away 12MP and no AA filter and come out ahead, sorry. Some people say the D7100 is more detailed than the D600, and I can't argue too hard, the D7100 is that good:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/studio-compare#baseDir=%2Freviews_data&cameraDataSubdir=boxshot&indexFileName=boxshotindex.xml&presetsFileName=boxshotpresets.xml&showDescriptions=false&headerTitle=Studio%20scene&headerSubTitle=Standard%20studio%20scene%20comparison&masterCamera=nikon_d600&masterSample=dsc_4509_03.acr&slotsCount=4&slot0Camera=nikon_d600&slot0Sample=dsc_4509_03.acr&slot0DisableCameraSelection=true&slot0DisableSampleSelection=true&slot0LinkWithMaster=true&slot1Camera=nikon_d800e&slot1Sample=dsc_0087.acr&slot2Camera=nikon_d7100&slot2Sample=dsc_0162.acr&x=-0.27040407123977283&y=0.30051947850896776

=nikon_d600&slot0Sample=dsc_4509_03.acr&slot0DisableCameraSelection=true&slot0DisableSampleSelection=true&slot0LinkWithMaster=true&slot1Camera=nikon_d800e&slot1Sample=dsc_0087.acr&x=-0.27040407123977283&y=0.30051947850896776

If that is credible it is unlikely that the D7100 will render any resolution over the 7000. I don't think Canon are that worried.

Well, that's nicely written, but completely incorrect. That ship sailed a couple of months back when the D5200 showed higher res easily than the D7000 using the cheapo 351.8, as did the D7100 a few months after that.  If performance equals better sales then Canon should be plenty worried with their old sensor, because they've got nothing that can touch the D7100.  Or the D800.

Mako2011
Mako2011 MOD Forum Pro • Posts: 20,356
Out of focus
3

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

This is not my D5200 or D7100 and the former isn't back focused at f8.  It's just soft compared to the D7100 because of the blur filter. Download the raws and see for yourself:

As pointed out many times...in this particular example the D5200 images is out of focus. That amount of blur is atypical for a normal D5200 or even D5100 image. Might be something else but that is simply not a typical shot. Check the D7000 shots they took. Huge difference between them and even the the D5200/D5100. Not sure what IR did but something is off.

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 10,148
Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
6

d3xmeister wrote:

What I find amusing is that when the AA filter was removed or weakend in so many other cameras from other brands, the Nikon fanboys argued like crazy it is a bad thing. They even tried to demonstrate a strong AA filter is better, this forum was full of that. Now that Nikon has done it, it's the best thing ever.

No ,,camp,, has more blind fanboys like Nikon ,,camp,,.

No, that actually never happened anywhere but your own mind.   Must have been a lively discussion, though.

Next!

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 10,148
Not Out of focus

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

This is not my D5200 or D7100 and the former isn't back focused at f8.  It's just soft compared to the D7100 because of the blur filter. Download the raws and see for yourself:

As pointed out many times...in this particular example the D5200 images is out of focus. That amount of blur is atypical for a normal D5200 or even D5100 image. Might be soemthing else but that is simply not a typical shot.

No, it is most certainly not out of focus, it is merely soft.  The D7000 is softer yet.  The coffee cup handle is in perfect focus in front of the scale, as are the yarn samples behind it.  At f8, it's what you would expect with a 70mm lens.  Imaging Resource knows what they are doing. The crops are right in line with the results of the D600 and the D7000, as Renato showed a few weeks back.  They call it a blur filter for a reason.

Jared Huntr OP Senior Member • Posts: 1,796
It's always a sign of desperation...
2

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

I couldn't quite make it out.

when the poster ignores key questions relevant to the thread and instead attempts to get personal by being critical of the messenger, his equipment, and his images instead of addressing the message itself...

Mako2011
Mako2011 MOD Forum Pro • Posts: 20,356
Sample?

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

This is not my D5200 or D7100 and the former isn't back focused at f8.  It's just soft compared to the D7100 because of the blur filter. Download the raws and see for yourself:

As pointed out many times...in this particular example the D5200 images is out of focus. That amount of blur is atypical for a normal D5200 or even D5100 image. Might be something else but that is simply not a typical shot.

No, it is most certainly not out of focus, it is merely soft.  The D7000 is softer yet.

I just rechecked. The D7000 image there is sharper. Very noticeable when set to same framing. Wonder if it's sample variation

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