D7100 owners having to INCREASE shutter speeds to avoid softness?

Started Apr 15, 2013 | Discussions
Whalligeo Regular Member • Posts: 245
Re: Simple calculation

Dirk W wrote:

I think the calculation is pretty simple: The D7100 has about the same resolution at 2x crop as the 7000 has at 1,5 crop. So if you need to multiply the focal length by 1,5 for the minimum shutter speed at the D7000 according to the old thumb rule, you need to multiply it by 2 at the D7100.

If 1.5 is enough even at the 7000, is another question, maybe that thumb rule only applied to 10MP cameras.

Um. No, the rule of thumb applied to 35mm film as well. But if you don't have a very steady hand, its not a very good rule of thumb anyway, but its a start to get you in the ball park.

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Dirk W Senior Member • Posts: 2,993
Re: Simple calculation

Yeah sure I agree on that, the thumb rule is not the one for all solution. What I really meant to say is that normally a crop sensor at the same focal length and similar resolution needs shorter shutter speed than a full size sensor. But the reason is not so much the size of the sensor but the size of a pixel. The smaller the pixel, i.e. the sharper the sensor, the shorter the shutter speed is required if you want to use the sensor's full capacity and avoid motion blur. I guess that's why all the superzoom cameras have image stabilization nowadays, just because their pixel size is crazily small due to a very high pixel densitiy, paired with a rather long lens, e.g. 200 mm.

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rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 25,819
Old myths die hard
5

The number of pixels is irrelevant, what is important is final output size and viewing distance. Does anyone publish larger images on the internet if they use a 24MP rather than a 6/10/12/16MP camera?

Have magazine page sizes increased because of higher pixel counts now available?

If you had to print a billboard from a 10MP file, what's the difference if you now have a 24MP file? Actually, there is one, the printing resolution used will be higher using a higher pixel count and results will be better.

The issue comes when one checks IQ at 100% on a low res monitor, no matter what the original pixel count of file is. Then AF accuracy, DoF, camera shake, all have a different impact. One should always compare different cameras at same final output size, at same viewing distance.

The 1/FL rule, even corrected for sensor size, requires that image is 12x8" viewed from 2 ft away, the standard for DoF and all image characteristics.

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N8008s New Member • Posts: 8
Re: Simple calculation

It's a "rule of thumb" not a thumb rule.

N8008s New Member • Posts: 8
Re: Simple calculation
scokill
scokill Veteran Member • Posts: 5,170
Re: Old myths die hard

People love absolutes so they can dispense with root cause analysis of unintended results.

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Whalligeo Regular Member • Posts: 245
Re: Simple calculation

On the other hand you'll probably find a good number of photographers don't know how to take a 'sharp' picture in the first place. Even less seem to have a grip on DOF, and less still on how much PP to apply, or not as the case may be. Now, some maths. The number of pixels are irrelevant, the viewing distance and magnification is.

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Dirk W Senior Member • Posts: 2,993
Re: Old myths die hard
2

It absolutely matters when you make harsh crops, e.g. for far away birds and other wildlife animal pictures.

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Whalligeo Regular Member • Posts: 245
Re: Old myths die hard

rhlpetrus wrote:

The number of pixels is irrelevant, what is important is final output size and viewing distance. Does anyone publish larger images on the internet if they use a 24MP rather than a 6/10/12/16MP camera?

Have magazine page sizes increased because of higher pixel counts now available?

If you had to print a billboard from a 10MP file, what's the difference if you now have a 24MP file? Actually, there is one, the printing resolution used will be higher using a higher pixel count and results will be better.

The issue comes when one checks IQ at 100% on a low res monitor, no matter what the original pixel count of file is. Then AF accuracy, DoF, camera shake, all have a different impact. One should always compare different cameras at same final output size, at same viewing distance.

The 1/FL rule, even corrected for sensor size, requires that image is 12x8" viewed from 2 ft away, the standard for DoF and all image characteristics.

Ta.

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Dirk W Senior Member • Posts: 2,993
Re: Simple calculation

Thank you

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JimPearce
JimPearce Veteran Member • Posts: 9,188
"on a low res monitor"?
3

I can see the differences on my high res monitor. I think there's a real danger of simplifying the argument from both sides. Do I want to print at 16" x 24" (or larger) with my D7100? Do I want to crop to a 9 MP file as I did last week? If either is true, I had better use my best technique. On the other hand, if I'm just trimming and posting at 800 x 1200 pixels I can treat the camera the same as my D300 or D300s.

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Jim

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Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,709
Re: Old myths die hard
1

rhlpetrus wrote:

The 1/FL rule, even corrected for sensor size, requires that image is 12x8" viewed from 2 ft away, the standard for DoF and all image characteristics.

At 100 iso, you'll never see the difference in a 5MP E1 and a 24MP D7100 in an 8X12 print viewed from 2 feet away anyway, much less motion blur from using 1/focal length shutter speed.

If you want to take advantage of the extra resolution a higher pixel density can provide, you have to improve technique/optics over what a lower MP camera has or the bad technique/optics will negate any advantage.

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Stacey

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aruky Junior Member • Posts: 34
Re: "on a low res monitor"?

After nearly 2000 shots with the D7100 I can second the feeling that in order to see max. sharpness you need a shorter shutter time. But it's still a "feeling" as I wouldn't say thyt I've mastered all the cameras abilities. the 1/focal length rule doesn't seem to cut it for me either.

The two shot here were taken at 1/1250 sec and 1/5000sec.

1/5000

1/1250sec

Taken with a nikkor 60mm Macro 1,28

All in all a fantastic tool.

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Whalligeo Regular Member • Posts: 245
Re: Old myths die hard

Stacey_K wrote:

At 100 iso, you'll never see the difference in a 5MP E1 and a 24MP D7100 in an 8X12 print viewed from 2 feet away anyway, much less motion blur from using 1/focal length shutter speed.

If you want to take advantage of the extra resolution a higher pixel density can provide, you have to improve technique/optics over what a lower MP camera has or the bad technique/optics will negate any advantage.

BINGO!!!! 

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scokill
scokill Veteran Member • Posts: 5,170
Re: "on a low res monitor"?

aruky wrote:

After nearly 2000 shots with the D7100 I can second the feeling that in order to see max. sharpness you need a shorter shutter time. But it's still a "feeling" as I wouldn't say thyt I've mastered all the cameras abilities. the 1/focal length rule doesn't seem to cut it for me either.

The two shot here were taken at 1/1250 sec and 1/5000sec.

1/5000

1/1250sec

Taken with a nikkor 60mm Macro 1,28

All in all a fantastic tool.

No offense, but what are these supposed to show?

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Whalligeo Regular Member • Posts: 245
Re: "on a low res monitor"?

Was thinking the same

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They said it couldn't be done, so I encouraged my peers not to bother.
HooRoo!

Josh152 Senior Member • Posts: 2,018
Re: 1/focal length rule
1

The 1/focal length rule is just a rough guide, something that is simple and straight forward to tell beginners.  The fact is how fast of a shutter speed you need to avoid cameras shake depends on many factors.  Even for the same person it won't always be the same number.   For example if you normally can get sharp images at 2X the focal length under ideal conditions you may need 3x or 4x the focal length if you are tried, cold, out of breath, shooting at an awkward angle, using a camera without a view finder, ect.   The only way to know for sure how fast of a shutter speed YOU need to get acceptable sharpness for YOU is to actually take some test shots.  If you have a lenses with VR d oit using VR and not Using it and you will know how many extra  stops of hand holding the VR is giving YOU.

Toccata47 Senior Member • Posts: 2,800
Higher mp = higher ss

It's a simple matter of course that most of us have ignored for years. I think 24m is the threshold, but this will just continue to increase in the next generation until stabilization catches up. Lighter, cheaper tripods are available to help.

aruky Junior Member • Posts: 34
Re: "on a low res monitor"?

Couldn't judge on how it would appear here on the site but on my computer i can see a clear sharpness advantage of the 1/5000 sec shot. As both shutter speed are really short, I'd be glad to believe that it was a focus failure.

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six34sigma
six34sigma Senior Member • Posts: 2,165
Re: 1/focal length rule

Perhaps training for the pentathlon would assist photographers. Have to run or cross country ski and then shoot a camera while out of breath :-D. Hmmmm .... only half kidding.

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