D7100 substantially better AF than D7000??

Started Apr 14, 2013 | Discussions
AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,922
Shuffly nikons

Nikon sample variation seems varied, I`ve had shuffly D80s (where each focus attempt produces a different focus even in good light on an easy target  espeically at wide angle) , shuffly D200s and amazingly a shuffly D2X !! , a collegue had a slightly shuffly D700 and another a D90 so bad you`d swear it was made by Pentax !! (I mean that, it was THAT bad) . Both D7000 and D7100 it would seem have sample variation - there are as many reports here now of bad D7100s as there were D7000s in its early days.

In nikon, the D300, D3 and D2X seem to be the most stable of AF systems (the 11 point / 1 cross sensor as used in the D200/80/90/3200/5000 series the worst) and my D7000 is as stable as any of those once the lens has been setup in the Micro AF tuning .. even with good non-shuffly samples , one weird thing I`ve found across canon and nikon is that APS-C sensor cameras which have Micro tunable AF seem to actually need it whereas ones without (if they`re not faulty) seem to get away without it well ..

Another thing to note is lens behaviour - some of the new AFS-G primes seem to suffer focus shift (they rear focus as you stop them down) as have other lenses in the past and the 50 F1.8G for instance front focusses at infinity as well as that (so don`t go setting up the AF at F1.8 by shooting houses across the road as it`ll rear focus across a room) . the old screw drive 50s behaved normally ----- err but were pretty crap wideopen - it` s a compromise. Learn ya lenses before blaming the camera

-- hide signature --

** Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist **

 AdamT's gear list:AdamT's gear list
Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 III Sony RX10 III Fujifilm X-T100
AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,922
Addendum ---->

The baseline is that a good D7000 is as dependable AF wise as Nikon`s best (I`d trust mine in any light as far as the best D3) but a bad one, like all Duds of all models, including the 7100 will be a nightmare and should not be suffered, get them sent back or returned . (Inlcudes D800s with iffy edge sensors)

-- hide signature --

** Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist **

 AdamT's gear list:AdamT's gear list
Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 III Sony RX10 III Fujifilm X-T100
OP Gene Goodman Regular Member • Posts: 181
Re: Shuffly nikons

Thanks Adam T;

I do have 4 AFS G primes  (50 1.8,  50  1.4   85 1.8,  and 60 2.8 micro),  possibly this is part of problem,  more likely I have a "shuffy" 7000.   Next camera I buy will be put through focus tests within first 2 weeks.

Thanks

Gene

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 13,227
Shuffly!

Now you've gone and added to my collection of dodgy Britslang, which grows an entry or two a month.  Much appreciated.  I'll put it right next to "porkies" and "knackered."

 Reilly Diefenbach's gear list:Reilly Diefenbach's gear list
Nikon D500 Nikon D850
jonikon Veteran Member • Posts: 7,101
Re: Shuffly nikons

AdamT wrote:

...

Another thing to note is lens behaviour - some of the new AFS-G primes seem to suffer focus shift (they rear focus as you stop them down) as have other lenses in the past and the 50 F1.8G for instance front focusses at infinity as well as that (so don`t go setting up the AF at F1.8 by shooting houses across the road as it`ll rear focus across a room) . the old screw drive 50s behaved normally ----- err but were pretty crap wideopen - it` s a compromise. Learn ya lenses before blaming the camera

You hit on something that I was going to mention Adam. The lens focus shift problem is very real for some lenses, especially large aperture (< f2.8), prime lenses with some worse than other. In particular the Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G AF-S DX is notorious for having focus shift and many have reported focus problems with the D7000. Fortunately only one of my lenses seem to exhibit the focus shift behavior, and that is the 85mm Micro Nikkor, which, strangely enough, is not  a large aperture lens. The focus speed and accuracy with my 60mm f2.8 Micro Nikkor is outstanding though, even in dim light. I also noticed that lenses with large amounts of CA do not focus as well when using the periphery focus points.

Something else that may help. My salesman at my local camera shop that sold me my D7000 recommended using an air blaster in the mirror box (shutter closed), to keep focus sensors sensors clean and free from dust. I don't know if it helps, but I regualry use an air blaster in the mirror box as part of my camera's maintenance.

My personal opinion is that the AF complaints on this forum regarding the D7000 have been overblown, and are not a generic problem, but body or body/lens specific problems, and in some cases, user error and lack of understanding how the AF works with different settings. I also spotted some obvious trolls  that had initially forgotten to change the EXIF (one Sony and one Pentax), on their fake D7000 photos. I have to admit that some of these trolls were very convincing though!

If there had been an inherent design flaw with the AF module in the D7000, I doubt Nikon would have sold so many D7000's for so long, or used the same AF module in the D600 and D5200 as well.  That would just not make sense at all.

- Jon

 jonikon's gear list:jonikon's gear list
Nikon Coolpix A Nikon 1 V1 Nikon 1 V2 Fujifilm X-T10 Fujifilm X-T2 +11 more
AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,922
Re: Shuffly nikons

focus shift problem is very real for some lenses, especially large aperture (< f2.8), prime lenses with some worse than other. In particular the Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G AF-S DX is notorious for having focus shift and many have reported focus problems with the D7000

The AF problems with the 35 DX seem to be centered on shooting in tungsten light - I`d expect the same issues with the D5200 and D600, both of which use the same AF module as the D7000.. Dunno if the D7100 is affected .. I`ll beware of this when I eventually get this lens (been meaning to grab one for ages, just never got around to it) .

I find the 50 F1.8 AFS to be a good compromise - Yeah, the old screw drive one had no focus shift and didn`t front focus at infinity but it was loaded with halation, CA, PF etc at F1.8 whereas the new lens is not only "usable" wideopen but it`s become an everyday aperture.. the shift in the 1.4 version would be more of a pain and I don`t think this lens is worth the extra over the 1.8 (given the F1.4 performance) as it`s only marginally sharper across the whole aperture range and still exhibits the same negatives.........

lenses have odd properties which will affect some users and not others . for instance the Ultra cheapo (but criminally sharp) Tamron 55-200 DiII Macro front focusses at 55mm when you try to focus at infinity, it`s perfect up to two streets away and perfect everywhere at 200mm .....

This is why Olympus put complex AF adjust in the E3 where you can set lenses at each end of the zoom and you calibrate them inbbetween infinity and close range . I wish Canon and Nikon would get their act together and do this - I`ve seen lenses in both mounts which need adjustment at only one end and even ones which need it in Both directions depending on which end of the zoom . a simple back/front AF adjust isn`t enough thesedays with 24 to 36Mp being pixelpeeped .

My personal opinion is that the AF complaints on this forum regarding the D7000 have been overblown,

Agreed - same for the D800 and now D7100 which is getting a right hammering about left AF sensors etc .. these forums exist for FUD

If there had been an inherent design flaw with the AF module in the D7000, I doubt Nikon would have sold so many D7000's for so long, or used the same AF module in the D600 and D5200 as well.  That would just not make sense at all

True, especially regarding the D600

-- hide signature --

** Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist **

 AdamT's gear list:AdamT's gear list
Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 III Sony RX10 III Fujifilm X-T100
anotherMike Veteran Member • Posts: 9,469
Re: D7100 substantially better AF than D7000??

Yea, you raise the good question. For a while, before I just said the hell with it as I really just never cared for this body in many ways, I started to do some tests with the D7100 AF (I test for a living), and I found that where it really struggled was low light combined with incandescent light source. The more the light source trended towards daylight, even at moderately lower levels, the better things were. I can't remember details, but I remember running 20 shots in a row, defocusing the lens and using center point AF-S focus to achieve focus in various light sources and tracking how many times I missed focus and how many times I got it. And this was with apertures beyond wide open and with lenses that were reliable - I wasn't giving it something complicated like a 24/1.4G, which is a known trouble job with focus. Results were pretty poor (like missing 16 out of 20 shots or something IIRC) until the light levels got higher and the color temp got closer to daylight. Outdoors the AF module was actually pretty nice. 3000k modelling lights at a moderate level, not so much. Part variability? Don't know. I was pretty thorough in my tests and it matched what my colleagues were experiencing with studio work as well. No wonder we all ditched the camera. Perhaps there were different batchs of AF module or something. Strange.

I've shot a D600 but only outdoors. It's AF system seems improved over the 7000, but I've never run tests in lower light to see if it's any better there.

-m

AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,922
Re: D7100 substantially better AF than D7000??

I just tested this using two lenses - a fast one and a slow one, shooting across to the dark side of a room only lit with a table lamp and the cam was smack on every time even at F1.8 , the slow one was shooting at 55mm through an F4 aperture and was fine also (same at 200mm at F5.6 max) .......

If the module had a tungsten issue then it was gone before my Serial number 627xxxx D7000 was made . it certainly AFs more stabily in this kind of light than any of the canon xxD series or Nikons with CAM1000

-- hide signature --

** Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist **

 AdamT's gear list:AdamT's gear list
Canon PowerShot G1 X Sony RX100 III Sony RX10 III Fujifilm X-T100
rusticus
rusticus Contributing Member • Posts: 559
Re: D7100 substantially better AF than D7000??

no!

the upgrade is money thrown out the window

 rusticus's gear list:rusticus's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Pentax K-5
Brian M. Regular Member • Posts: 114
My answer...
3

So what has been your experience with AF consistency from D7000 to D7100

I had the D7000 since it was released and replaced it with the D7100 on the day it came out..

Since its "spring" (using quotes cuz its snowing right now) I've used the D7100 to shoot high school Rugby and youth indoor football (american).

For outdoor field sports (only rugby so far) i find the D7100 more reliable then the D7000.  Im not saying the D7000 was bad.. but the D7100 has yet to miss a target.  Out of a few hundred shots i'd always find a few front/back focus images on the D7000.

Where the D7100 has won me over is in the dark university 'field houses' where spring youth football is played. (think darker then a jr. high gym with 1/2 the lights on).  The D7000 struggled with this venue last year but the AF on the D7100 has been amazing.

To sum up... My D7100 is way more consistent then my D7000.

OP Gene Goodman Regular Member • Posts: 181
Re: My answer...

Thanks Brian;

Your answer is unambiguous  -  My 7000 is also early, and the variations in AF consistency is not due to lens (quality or quantity).   It is probably due to the "shuffy" factor as Adam T calls it.   Seems that I got one that is some how a little off, even though it went back to Nikon twice (Melville).   But your experience is very encouraging  -  will probably give 7100 a try in a few months

Thanks

Gene

-- hide signature --

D7000 50mm f1.4g 50mm f.18g 60mm micro f2.8g 85mm fa.8g 18-200 VR I Sigma 17-50mm f2.8 OS DC EX HSM amron 70-300 Di SP Nikon SB800

bluescript New Member • Posts: 1
Re: D7100 substantially better AF than D7000??

Gene Goodman wrote:

…. My main problem is AF consistency. I find that focus is spot on, then not. I fine tune and come up with one value, then then a week later its a different value, example from 0 to -6, or -8 to -14….

Hi,

Saw the main thing when testing a brand new D7000 against http://www.peleng8.com/pic/FocusTestChart300dpi.png target using 75-300 VR some months ago, shooting supported camera at 300mm, no VR, mirror lock, etc, using the central AF point only.

1) using micro adjustment, the camera could be tuned to be accurate ON AVERAGE, with significant spread still present to both back and front focusing.

2) the micro adjustments required to fix the average varied from day to day

Surprisingly enough, D5000 using only central AF point in the same test performed better in the sense that both the average was  effectively on target day on-day off and the dispersion of individual readings around the mean was smaller than on D7000.

My wild guess is that the AF sensor on D5000 is larger than on D7000 and hence 'more accurate' since the object distance is deduced from triangulation of signals from two closely placed detector points on the sensor. The smaller the AF phase detector on the sensor is, the the closer the two points need to be and hence the accuracy drops because it will be more difficult to to read the subtle differences in triangulation

Regards

Armin

Fred Mueller Senior Member • Posts: 2,528
agree with anothermike

I had two 7000s in succession (returned the first one and accidentally destroyed the second one - which tured out to be a weird blessing in a way). I could never settle on what the AF was doing in that camera - it was a frustrating period.  I had come from owning a D40, but had also used my sons D300 a lot.  The 7000s just threw me for a loop. They were all over the place, even in good light.  I thought for a while it was my lack of skill, somehow.

But after the 2nd 7000 I bought a 700 and in 30 seconds all was made right in the world - it was that dramatic.

I rented a 7100 for a long weekend not too long ago just to give one a try.  The AF actually does not seem quite as fast as my old 700, more like the 300 as I remember it - which is still a very good benchmark.  Except for the shallow buffer (which did not bother me much), I really liked the 7100. Great color. Really nice screen, and really nice grip, and really best in class bracketing facility.  I wish Nikon would do a firmware update and provide the bracketing routine in the 7100 for the 600 I own now.

Jim Holtz Senior Member • Posts: 1,106
Re: agree with anothermike

I had two 7000s in succession (returned the first one and accidentally destroyed the second one - which tured out to be a weird blessing in a way). I could never settle on what the AF was doing in that camera - it was a frustrating period.  I had come from owning a D40, but had also used my sons D300 a lot.  The 7000s just threw me for a loop. They were all over the place, even in good light.  I thought for a while it was my lack of skill, somehow.

But after the 2nd 7000 I bought a 700 and in 30 seconds all was made right in the world - it was that dramatic.

I rented a 7100 for a long weekend not too long ago just to give one a try.  The AF actually does not seem quite as fast as my old 700, more like the 300 as I remember it - which is still a very good benchmark.  Except for the shallow buffer (which did not bother me much), I really liked the 7100. Great color. Really nice screen, and really nice grip, and really best in class bracketing facility.  I wish Nikon would do a firmware update and provide the bracketing routine in the 7100 for the 600 I own now.

Hi Fred,

This is a really old thread you responded to. You do realize your D600 uses the same Cam 4800 focus module as the D7000, D5200, D5300 and D600 don't you? The D300, D700 and D7100 use Cam3500.

The D7000 actually focuses extremely well once you get the settings correct and understand that the actual focus area is larger than the box in the viewfinder.

I'm guessing that Nixon reduced the size of the focus area to more closely match the viewfinder boxes in later models. Just a guess.

Jim

 Jim Holtz's gear list:Jim Holtz's gear list
Nikon D610 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm F4G ED VR Nikon D750 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Sigma 100-400mm F5-6.3
Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 16,988
Re: Shuffly nikons

With many subjects the D7100 is no better at aF than the D7000 - but with some subjects it is.

That aside either there is something loose inside your camera body (unlikely as Nikon have seen it twice) or your testing technique is not to a high enough standard to get consistent results.

Whatever you use as an AF target if at the zoom setting and focus distance it is not a first class AF subject (see your camera instruction book on that) you may be trying to correct for a perceived fault that does not exist.

-- hide signature --

A great painter gets credit for artistic skill rather than owning marvellous brushes. Maybe photographers should challenge the common assumption a great photograph requires no more than a marvellous camera.

 Leonard Shepherd's gear list:Leonard Shepherd's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon D500 Nikon D850 Nikon Z7 +24 more
Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,926
Re: Shuffly nikons

AdamT wrote:

(the 11 point / 1 cross sensor as used in the D200/80/90/3200/5000 series the worst)

I have to disagree. My d200 which obviously doesn't have fine tuning is accurate with all my lenses, the D7000 requires a different fine tune for almost every lens.

-- hide signature --

Stacey

 Stacey_K's gear list:Stacey_K's gear list
Nikon D200 Nikon D700 Nikon D4 Nikon D800 Sony a7 +19 more
Wu Jiaqiu
Wu Jiaqiu Forum Pro • Posts: 23,866
Re: A puzzle...

JimPearce wrote:

If the D7000 doesn't struggle to focus in challenging situations, where are all of those great D7000 wildlife shots? We know that a lot of wildlife shooters have D7000s.

i don't shoot a lot of wildlife but prefer airshows, new D7000 no airshow so i went after some birds, low light and not brilliant conditions but they pleased me

this pigeon shot was with a 500mm lens, very thin DOF and i focused on the eyes

mine is obviously a later production cam and it works fine, no AF tuning has been done

 Wu Jiaqiu's gear list:Wu Jiaqiu's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Nikon D2Xs Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4D ED-IF Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II +1 more
Wu Jiaqiu
Wu Jiaqiu Forum Pro • Posts: 23,866
Re: agree with anothermike

Jim Holtz wrote:

I'm guessing that Nixon reduced the size of the focus area to more closely match the viewfinder boxes in later models. Just a guess.

Jim

i think you may be right on this, i recently bought one and tested this using AF-C and a contrast object against a plain background, it changed focus when the area of contrast hit the edge of the focus  box, not scientific but that's my feeling on mine

 Wu Jiaqiu's gear list:Wu Jiaqiu's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Nikon D2Xs Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4D ED-IF Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II +1 more
Fred Mueller Senior Member • Posts: 2,528
Re: agree with anothermike

Hi Jim,

About my 7000s ...

Yes I know all of the specs and went thru all of the "learning" trying out every imaginable "fix" and drove myself a little nuts with the 7000 bodies I had (including returinng the first one).  In fact the responses I got about "proper technique", "skills", and "ignorance" got pretty annoying (I am not annoyed by your comments - tho I do feel a need to respond).

When I got the 700 it was like the sky parted and the sun came out and I was so darn relieved, the best thing being that the baggage of self-doubt just lifted away.

My 7000s just did not have precision, in hind sight the issue is very clear (pun) to me, and I still have the files to prove it to myself, if not anyone else. Both of mine were early run bodies.

My 600 is better, and in a way even faster than my 700, but jumpy, and less good than it should be in low warm light where it will tend to back focus some of my lenses; in other words, trending in the same way the 39pt array behaved in the 7000.  But usable.

OF all the cameras I have had I prefer the 700 AF still, but the 600 IQ is just a step up and hard to do without.

My2cents

Fred

dwa1 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,325
D7100 has the "Advanced" Multi-CAM 3500DX AF sensor module...

After using a D300 for many years, I just added a D7100. I'm certainly no Nikon AF system engineer, but here is a bit of info that may be worth considering.

I’ve been doing some research about the D7100 “Advanced” Multi-CAM 3500DX autofocus sensor module.

I liked this thread (below) on the D7100 AF-C. Here is one quote…

“The second difference, starting with the D3s, using single point AF Nikon made the detection area smaller. A D3s or D4 (and I understand D600) has smaller single AF point detection areas than the D700.”

The key point being the smaller detection area (compared to the 3500DX of the D300).

Here is the link to LS’s post (threaded view) where the quote came from...

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52190396

I would suggest reading through the various posts on that thread. Lot's of good feedback and experiences. Although many by now may have revised their BIF settings with the D7100.

What I’m getting out of my research is that since the “detection area” for Single Point on the D7100 is smaller than what we are used to with the D300, that it will definitely behave differently than what we are used to with a D300. For example, I noticed that Single Point works so much better for birds sitting in a tree. Whereas the D300 in Single Point would most often “nail the branches” instead of the bird. So, in this situation, the D7100 AF system appears to be "more accurate".

However, if you want to use Single Point for BIF then you "may" get a lot more misses with the D7100 than you would with the D300. This could explain why some posters on that thread were experiencing "different" results (than with D300 type AF system) with their different lenses.

Therefore, for BIF with the D7100, depending on how much of the bird can be seen in the viewfinder, I would move from using Single Point to at least 9-points or even 21-points. A few tries with 51-points could also be worthwhile.

Mansurov used 51 AF points for BIF in this review…

http://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d7100/4

Hope this helps.

Wayne

 dwa1's gear list:dwa1's gear list
Nikon D300 Nikon D7100 Nikon D7200 Sigma 150mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM Nikon AF-P 70-300mm F4.5-6.3G VR
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads