Why Win8 will succeed. Or fail.

Started Apr 10, 2013 | Discussions
John W Hall Contributing Member • Posts: 549
Re: Why Win8 will succeed. Or fail.

Ho72 wrote:

...

Now it appears most Windows users are too stupid to use Windows 8.

...

I suspect that the problem is ignorance, rather than stupidity.

Fortunately, ignorance is fixable (though not always simply).

OP Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,918
Re: Why Win8 will succeed. Or fail.

dradam wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

Ho72 wrote:

The old joke used to be: If you're too stupid to use a computer, get a Mac.

Now it appears most Windows users are too stupid to use Windows 8.

Get a Mac.

They used to say that a bad workman blames his tools.  Equally, a bad toolmaker blames the workman.  If you want to sell operating systems, no point blaming the stupid users.

I'm sorry, but if a carpenter suddenly doesn't know how to work a hammer because the handle is now green instead of orange, it is the carpenters fault.

Yes, that's what the tool maker will say.  But if the carpenter can go somewhere else and get a hammer with an orange handle, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, the tool maker loses.

 Simon Garrett's gear list:Simon Garrett's gear list
Nikon D800
(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 14,338
Re: they could have two operating systems

dradam wrote:

There's a big tile labeled "Desktop"...

Which takes one to a very bare desktop and no tools. They didn't even place shortcuts for Explorer or Control Panel on that desktop. As shipped, this desktop leads nowhere.

I know that can be solved too. But it's an unnecessary hassle for experienced users. Inexperienced users would quite likely find themselves quickly lost.

dradam Senior Member • Posts: 2,818
Re: they could have two operating systems
2

malch wrote:

dradam wrote:

There's a big tile labeled "Desktop"...

Which takes one to a very bare desktop and no tools. They didn't even place shortcuts for Explorer or Control Panel on that desktop. As shipped, this desktop leads nowhere.

Tools?  The desktop never (in my memory) had tools on it by default, especially not Control Panel (which is, incidentally, easier to access in Windows 8 than ever before).  Also, if I remember correctly, the only two thing pinned to the taskbar by default are Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer, I'm not sure which "Explorer" you meant, but they were both there when I first clicked "Desktop".

I know that can be solved too. But it's an unnecessary hassle for experienced users. Inexperienced users would quite likely find themselves quickly lost.

migibson99 Regular Member • Posts: 211
Re: Why Win8 will succeed. Or fail.
3

dradam wrote:

migibson99 wrote:.

Agreed.  But if a carpenter picks up a hammer and the handle is curved instead of straight, and it's uncomfortable for him to swing, and the way it feels in his hand makes it harder for him to do his job, then he's going to stick with the straight handled hammer.  Blaming him for being "old school" or "unwilling to get with the times" , or explaining the superior aerodynamics of the curved handle hammer won't change that.

If the carpenter has actually tried the hammer and really just doesn't like it, that's perfectly legitimate.

However, I feel with Windows you are getting a lot of people who see the new curved handle and decide they don't like it without ever holding it, and that many of these same people are then making a big stink about how horrible the new handle is.  Then again, I think that the new handle actually IS more aerodynamic and that people would like it if they just give it a chance (and, if not, that the curve is subtle enough that it can basically be ignored).

I see your point, but don't necessarily agree with it.

Taking the humorous hammer analogy one step further, what you are saying essentially is........If original hammers didn't have handles at all, and that was what carpenters were used to, and then they started making hammers with handles, the carpenters might hate the new hammers.  The handle might feel strange and unnatural until the carpenters got used to them (which wouldn't take long), and then they would quickly realize how much better, easier and more efficient hammers with handles are.

Sounds logical, but I don't think this is what MS has done.  I don't think they have advanced the hammer, but rather I think they have taken a perfectly good hammer and added a saw blade to it.  One tool for 2 jobs!  Sounds good!  NOT.  A carpenter would rather have a hammer and a saw than a hammer/saw hybrid.  What MS has failed to realize is that most  people are ok with a desktop OS and a mobile OS.  In fact, most people would prefer to have an OS dedicated to the platform they are using.  If there are similarities and familiarities across both platforms that is fine, but they don't need to be the same system.

Michael Firstlight Veteran Member • Posts: 3,365
Windows will succeed - Win 8 is only the preview
1

I have three high end systems running side by side, one is an i7 tower running Windows 7 Ultimate, the other two, an i7 tower and a very powerful i5 tablet are running Windows 8 Professional.  All three boot directly into the Windows Classic desktop; I never see Metro on Windows 8 on any of them unless I intentionally switch to it and I have a Start button on all three (I am using Classic Shell - a free add on, 2 minute install, on Windows 8 to get both back.  Anyone that complains that downloading an add on application like Classic Shell must also have a problem with most modern software  - most of which has to be downloaded these days - so don't give me that incredibly lame argument that it is too onerous to download and install a third party app - geeze!

When you take the new Metro user interface and the absence of the classic Windows Start button out of the equation, Windows 8 Pro beats Windows 7 Ultimate in almost every respect.  Is it worth upgrading from Win 7 to Win 8, no. Is is worth downgrading a new machine with Win 8 back to Win 7?  no.  Will Win 8 continue to improve over Win 7 and make Win 7 less and less desirable over time? Absolutely.

Yes. Is Windows 7 better for novice users on the non-touch desktops that are used to the classic Windows user interface? Yes, because those people aren't smart enough to hit a huge tile on the Metro desktop to know to get to the Windows classic desktop - this is the portion of the general population that are basically technically ignorant and also the same people that probably also inbreed.  Then there are those that are just too lazy to hit that tile or install a free utility that makes Metro (a crummy touch interface for a tablet no matter how you look at it) a moot point.

Yes, MS messed up.  All they had to do was sense if a machine has a touch screen and if not, make the classic Windows desktop to default one and bring back the Start button.  What happened is they intentionally ignored early developers strong feedback because they are hellbent on moving customers to a proprietary App store model and annual subscription software - thank Apple for that.  You have to have a little sympathy for MS - they have to do that to compete now or continue to decline in the long run.

The fact is, the most desktop users are not going to jettison Windows because they don't like Metro; they'll get around it once they figure out how to.  MS might issue a Windows 8 service pack or a Win 9 that senses if the machine has a touch screen and make the classic Windows desktop to default one and bring back the Start button for machines without touch screens - maybe, if only because they are hurting some more because of the persistent bad press -  not based on technical merit. Then again, the long term business benefit for MS not yielding and continuing there march towards a App store and annual subscription software model may dwarf the downside of backtracking as much as many of us would like them to do.

Maybe Metro is just fine on a small form factor cell phone, I hear its pretty decent on phones - good, but for desktops and tablets  - even touch-enabled ones, Metro is still the worst graphical user interface for an OS designed for the masses - ever.  It is designed for great grandma and technophobes who gets overwhelmed by the classic Windows user interface at the rest of our expense.

What I'd really like to see MS do is provide several Windows user interfaces that users can choose from as the default.  They can each offer something different for each type and expertise level of users.  I somehow wonder if Windows 8 is simply the foundation for doing exactly that in subsequent versions and what we might be seeing now is not the real user interface design strategy end-game but a necessary ugly step to something far more interesting.

No matter, as much as some might hate MS and want to see their demise, Windows overall will not fail now will it lose significant market share of any on desktops and will gain market share in the non-desktop area - you can take that to the bank.

Windows 9 will be telling.

Regards,
Mike

 Michael Firstlight's gear list:Michael Firstlight's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR Sigma 10-20mm F3.5 EX DC HSM +19 more
migibson99 Regular Member • Posts: 211
Re: Windows will succeed - Win 8 is only the preview

Michael Firstlight wrote:

Is Windows 7 better for novice users on the non-touch desktops that are used to the classic Windows user interface? Yes, because those people aren't smart enough to hit a huge tile on the Metro desktop to know to get to the Windows classic desktop - this is the portion of the general population that are basically technically ignorant and also the same people that probably also inbreed.  Then there are those that are just too lazy to hit that tile or install a free utility that makes Metro (a crummy touch interface for a tablet no matter how you look at it) a moot point.

Regards,
Mike

Congratulations!  You summed up every lame, condescending,  argument in favor of W8 in one paragraph.   So those that don't embrace W8 are novices, stupid, ignorant, lazy and inbred.

Way to go!  I think MS should hire you in their PR Department.  You make a great case for W8.  Spot on.

migibson99 Regular Member • Posts: 211
Re: Windows will succeed - Win 8 is only the preview
1

Michael Firstlight wrote:

The fact is, the most desktop users are not going to jettison Windows because they don't like Metro; they'll get around it once they figure out how to.  MS might issue a Windows 8 service pack or a Win 9 that senses if the machine has a touch screen and make the classic Windows desktop to default one and bring back the Start button for machines without touch screens - maybe, if only because they are hurting some more because of the persistent bad press -  not based on technical merit. Then again, the long term business benefit for MS not yielding and continuing there march towards a App store and annual subscription software model may dwarf the downside of backtracking as much as many of us would like them to do.

Regards,
Mike

You hit the nail on the head with this statement.  MS is not focused on improving their software for a better user experience.  They are focused on improving their bottom line.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that.  That's what all businesses do.   It's just that most business try to improve their bottom line by offering products that people need, want, and embrace.  They don't try to improve their bottom line by insulting their current customers, and developing new products that don't meet their customers needs.

Everyone assumes that MS is too big to fail.  Too important to the computer eco system.  It's products in use by so many customers in so many ways, that they simply cannot and will not fail.  I actually believe that to be true, but.....remember when AOL absolutely owned the internet access market.  Remember when Netscape owned the browser market.  Remember when Hayes owned the modem market.  Remember when WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 were the only game in town for word processing and spreadsheets? At their peak, you could have made the same argument about each of these companies to a degree, and we know how that worked out.

It is highly unlikely, even improbable, but not inconceivable that MS could stumble and be overtaken.  Nothing for MS to fear in the foreseeable future, but they need to be mindful of what their customers want.  IMHO, W8 is an exercise in "we know what's best for you, so just trust us and deal with it" kind of an approach.  That makes them vulnerable.

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,871
Re: they could have two operating systems

dradam wrote:

It takes 2 minutes of training to avoid the this frustration, 2 minutes that many many people (especially on this forum) seem unwilling to even attempt.

If a user does not learn it in less than 10 seconds then he/she should be fired.

OP Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,918
Re: they could have two operating systems

Archer66 wrote:

dradam wrote:

It takes 2 minutes of training to avoid the this frustration, 2 minutes that many many people (especially on this forum) seem unwilling to even attempt.

If a user does not learn it in less than 10 seconds then he/she should be fired.

We had a computer support guy that said things like that.  We didn't fire the users, we fired the support guy

 Simon Garrett's gear list:Simon Garrett's gear list
Nikon D800
Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,871
Re: they could have two operating systems

Simon Garrett wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

dradam wrote:

It takes 2 minutes of training to avoid the this frustration, 2 minutes that many many people (especially on this forum) seem unwilling to even attempt.

If a user does not learn it in less than 10 seconds then he/she should be fired.

We had a computer support guy that said things like that.  We didn't fire the users, we fired the support guy

No wonder you have hard time with Win 8  

Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,894
Re: Windows will succeed - Win 8 is only the preview
1

migibson99 wrote:

It is highly unlikely, even improbable, but not inconceivable that MS could stumble and be overtaken.

It's not inconceivable at all, and in fact I think we're actually watching this unfold right before our very eyes.  MS is not gaining any traction in the mobile marketplace, and that's where all the action is.   The desktop market is declining.   What's happening to Microsoft seems to be exactly what happened to IBM three decades ago - they just weren't able to get a handle on personal computing and they slid from the public view.   IBM didn't "fail", they just became irrelevant to everyone except IT people at Fortune 500 companies.

In exactly the same way the world is shifting to mobile computing.   There are far more "content consumers" for whom mobile makes sense than "content producers" for whom desktops make sense.  Microsoft won't "fail" per se, but they've passed a fork on the road and are headed in the direction of becoming irrelevant to the majority of users.   That's their biggest fear, and they're not being paranoid about it.

I was weaned on IBM computers.   In the 1970's the name "IBM" meant "computer" the world over -  but not any more.  Young people today haven't even heard of it.  I'm here to tell you that what's happening today with Microsoft shows every sign of being exactly the same kind of sea change.

Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,894
Re: they could have two operating systems

Simon Garrett wrote:

We had a computer support guy that said things like that.  We didn't fire the users, we fired the support guy

Yep, IT people often think the users are supposed to make their job easier, when the reality is that it's the other way around.

You can see a very similar attitude in many of these posts...

Archer66 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,871
Re: they could have two operating systems

Sean Nelson wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

We had a computer support guy that said things like that.  We didn't fire the users, we fired the support guy

Yep, IT people often think the users are supposed to make their job easier, when the reality is that it's the other way around.

You can see a very similar attitude in many of these posts...

So it's ok to keep incompetent users ? Hope hospitals dont think the same about doctors.

herebefore
herebefore Veteran Member • Posts: 3,296
Re: they could have two operating systems

Archer66 wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

We had a computer support guy that said things like that.  We didn't fire the users, we fired the support guy

Yep, IT people often think the users are supposed to make their job easier, when the reality is that it's the other way around.

You can see a very similar attitude in many of these posts...

So it's ok to keep incompetent users ? Hope hospitals dont think the same about doctors.

NO !  You teach incompetent users to be competent, and supply them with materials for self teaching.

All new operating systems have a learning curve.

OP Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,918
Re: Windows will succeed - Win 8 is only the preview

migibson99 wrote:

It is highly unlikely, even improbable, but not inconceivable that MS could stumble and be overtaken.

But they already have been overtaken by Apple (both revenue and profile), and may be overtaken by Google this year or next.

Nothing for MS to fear in the foreseeable future, but they need to be mindful of what their customers want.  IMHO, W8 is an exercise in "we know what's best for you, so just trust us and deal with it" kind of an approach.  That makes them vulnerable.

I don't think the motivation for W8/Metro has much to do with User Interface - not directly.  It's about Microsoft moving to a network server software model where they have control over what software you use and when you use it (so they can move to a pay-per-use or subscription model).  And of course, it's about ensuring all software comes from the Microsoft server, rather than from ISVs, so MS get a cut even from other peoples' software. It's how Apple works on iphones and ipads (though not Macs), it's extremely profitable, and not surprising that Microsoft want it too.

Microsoft don't really care whether Metro is a better UI, only that it shouldn't be so bad that it puts people off.  Unfortunately...

 Simon Garrett's gear list:Simon Garrett's gear list
Nikon D800
CAcreeks
CAcreeks Forum Pro • Posts: 12,331
Hammer metaphor, enough already

migibson99 wrote:

Sounds logical, but I don't think this is what MS has done.  I don't think they have advanced the hammer, but rather I think they have taken a perfectly good hammer and added a saw blade to it.

You forgot to mention, a saw blade that doesn't cut it.

This reminds me of an old Pete Seeger song.

If I had a Hummer,
I'd drive it in the morning
I'd drive it in the evening
All over this land
I'd drive over sidewalk curbs
I'd drive over a desert turtle
I'd drive all over city parks
A-a-a-ll over this la-a-and.

Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,894
Re: they could have two operating systems
1

Archer66 wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

We had a computer support guy that said things like that.  We didn't fire the users, we fired the support guy

Yep, IT people often think the users are supposed to make their job easier, when the reality is that it's the other way around.

So it's ok to keep incompetent users ? Hope hospitals dont think the same about doctors.

Hospitals expect doctors to be good doctors, not computer gurus.

Companies expect good salesmen to be good salesmen, not computer gurus.

...etc.

And companies expect the IT department to make the people who earn them money more productive without costing too much.   Windows 8 on desktops isn't going to make them any more productive, it's going to cost a bunch, and it's going to make at least some users complain.   Most smart IT managers will steer clear of it.

migibson99 Regular Member • Posts: 211
Re: they could have two operating systems

Archer66 wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

We had a computer support guy that said things like that.  We didn't fire the users, we fired the support guy

Yep, IT people often think the users are supposed to make their job easier, when the reality is that it's the other way around.

You can see a very similar attitude in many of these posts...

So it's ok to keep incompetent users ? Hope hospitals dont think the same about doctors.

Archer, you totally missed the analogy, or you simply twisted it to make your point.  Like software is supposed to serve the users (versus the other way around), doctors are supposed to serve the patients.  The correct analogy would have been "So it's ok to keep incompetent users?  Hope hospitals don't think the same about the patients."  Well, I for one hope hospitals DO keep incompetent (i.e. sick) patients!

1w12q312qw1 Contributing Member • Posts: 732
Re: Windows will succeed - Win 8 is only the preview
2
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads