Does anyone care about moire?

Started Apr 8, 2013 | Discussions
rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 24,911
I don't Re: Does anyone care about moire?

I get some now and then with D7000, and the tests show D7100 is not much worse (same test as you posted). But unless someone is a professional shooter of venetian blinds, feathers (even though I haven't seen any issues with DPR's feathers in the studio shots) or fabric patterns, it's not that relevant in everyday use. I'd rather have the extra detail I'm seeing in samples compared to the D5200, for example, or even to the D600.

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rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 24,911
Re: I'm so glad I have a D7000 that is out of date...

coudet wrote:

JimPearce wrote:

Why, though? It's pretty bad too: link.

It's actually even slightly worse than D7100 in some other areas of the test scene, look left of those colored cotton balls (or whatever they are!) or at that red net (?), left of the card. There's no substitute for more megapixels. It would have been even better if it had AA filter, but it is what it is.

True, not a lot of difference.

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 12,423
Re: How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?

Well, any of the 24MP Nikons would be a big jump in quality from any of your Olys, that much is certain.  Are you thinking of upgrading?

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Whalligeo Regular Member • Posts: 245
Re: How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?

sigala1 wrote:

I think there's a rather weird disconnect.

When Nikon first introduced 24 MP APS-C cameras, everyone said, "oh my god, that's TOO MUCH resolution, no one needs that much resolution or can do anything with it."

But when Nikon removes the OLPF so that the 24 MP sensor can have even more resolution, everyone praises this as the smart thing to do.

I don't get it. Is 24 MP too much resolution, or not enough resolution?

I don't think there is a point where you can have too much resolution, unless the image degrades in other ways. But, do you need all that resolution? The final output size and media used is the real decider.

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They said it couldn't be done, so I encouraged my peers not to bother.

rska2013 Contributing Member • Posts: 529
Re: Does anyone care about moire?

no …..whos getting moire ????

Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,434
Re: How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?
2

sigala1 wrote:

I think there's a rather weird disconnect.

When Nikon first introduced 24 MP APS-C cameras, everyone said, "oh my god, that's TOO MUCH resolution, no one needs that much resolution or can do anything with it."

But when Nikon removes the OLPF so that the 24 MP sensor can have even more resolution, everyone praises this as the smart thing to do.

I don't get it. Is 24 MP too much resolution, or not enough resolution?

The techies/pixel peepers praise it, most photographers realize in their normal output this "increased resolution" isn't visible. I posted in another thread in an 8X10 print (and even up to 11X14 for most subjects) I can't see any real increase in visible resolution between my 5MP olympus E1 and a D7000. The reason I got the D7000 wasn't for the resolution, it was for the high iso/DR performance gain.

I can understand if people are looking to make wall size prints all this would matter. I also believe very few photographers images need or should be printed that large. If an image isn't striking at 8X10, blowing it up to 8X10 feet isn't going to fix it

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Stacey

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Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,434
Re: How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Well, any of the 24MP Nikons would be a big jump in quality from any of your Olys, that much is certain.  Are you thinking of upgrading?

I used to shoot olympus and the improvement isn't in resolution, it's high iso/DR. Unless their output is larger than 11X14 prints, they will see zero difference in visible resolution so I wouldn't call this upgrade in IQ "certain" . There is a point where improvements seen on screen at 100% just aren't visible in the final print/output.

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Stacey

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 12,423
Re: How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?

What monitor are you using?  I can see a clear difference between this D7100 pic and any lower model with no problem:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51747496@N08/8622476134/sizes/o/in/photostream/

See how you can read all the fine print all the way to the end on the "Proportional Scale"  without hitting control plus?  You can't do that with a 16MP camera from anybody.  There is a ton of detail in there that lesser cameras can't record.  The resolution and microcontrast is pretty breathtaking on this D7100 compared to any other DX camera.  It takes a D800e to beat it, and not by much.

As well, we have 4K monitors within three years tops for anyone serious about viewing photos on a computer or displaying them on a large flat panel TV.  Very few people care about large prints any more. Be ready.  A few short years ago, we thought VGA was all we'd ever need, but we were dead wrong about that.

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JimPearce
JimPearce Veteran Member • Posts: 9,188
You're so transparent Stacey...

Wildlife photographers buy the D7100 for the autofocus capability and want the resolution as much for reach as for large prints, and you dismiss resolution as a factor and go on about an invented moiré issue! If you don't want a D7100 fine, but you could debate that in the privacy of your own mind.

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Jim

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OP sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,818
Lack of a problem is not proved by its absence from one photo

I don't think I see any in the photo you posted, but only shows that there's no moire in that particular photo.

I actually think moire is quite commonly seen when photographing man-made objects, especially buildings and patterned clothing.

OP sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,818
Re: How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Well, any of the 24MP Nikons would be a big jump in quality from any of your Olys, that much is certain.  Are you thinking of upgrading?

I'm not endorsing any particular camera.

I've seen moire using Olympus cameras as well. All manufacturers are following suit in using light OLPF filters to get images that appear sharper at 100% and therefore please reviewers more.

I am sure they are doing this for marketing reasons, even though their engineers are opposed to it.

Nexu1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,746
Re: Does anyone care about moire?

rska2013 wrote:

no …..whos getting moire ????

That wall looks terrible.  Does it look like that in real life or is there a camera problem because I can't tell.

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 12,386
Re: Does anyone care about moire?

I guess nobody writes moiré any more . .

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AngryCorgi
AngryCorgi Contributing Member • Posts: 916
Re: Does anyone care about moire?
1

Me and moire used to be real close and I really cared about moire.  Then moire cheated on me and now my feelings for moire have greatly diminished, but I still occasionally facebook-stalk moire just for the hell of it!

I guess deep down, I do still have feelings for moire.

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-AC-

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 12,423
Re: How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?

sigala1 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Well, any of the 24MP Nikons would be a big jump in quality from any of your Olys, that much is certain.  Are you thinking of upgrading?

I'm not endorsing any particular camera.

I've seen moire using Olympus cameras as well. All manufacturers are following suit in using light OLPF filters to get images that appear sharper at 100%

They don't appear to be sharper, they actually are, by common consent.

and therefore please reviewers more.

I am sure they are doing this for marketing reasons, even though their engineers are opposed to it.

LOL, read us the minutes of that meeting, please.

And while you're at it, show us a Phase One, Pentax 645 or a D7100 picture that's been damaged by the lack of a blur filter.

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 12,423
Re: Does anyone care about moire?

Malheureusement, on ne peut pas :^)

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madduckbill New Member • Posts: 2
Re: Does anyone care about moire?

Yes, I care.  I do real estate photography and it can be a huge problem with siding, shingles, certain carpets, window treatments, decorative glass, etc.

mistermejia Veteran Member • Posts: 3,340
Re: Does anyone care about moire?

madduckbill wrote:

Yes, I care.  I do real estate photography and it can be a huge problem with siding, shingles, certain carpets, window treatments, decorative glass, etc.

Sorry, the D7100 is not for property siding, shingles, carpets, windows or glass, it is for BIRDS

Also is not for taking photos of teenagers that are going thru puberty, they will shoot you if they find out you took photos of them with a D7100, it will show too many pimples!

Sorry, i just had to! It must be Monday

Still, i wish i had a D7100.

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Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,434
Re: You're so transparent Stacey...
1

JimPearce wrote:

Wildlife photographers buy the D7100 for the autofocus capability and want the resolution as much for reach as for large prints

Then they would likely see an improvement.

What I see is people here saying things along the lines of "Everyone will see a marked improvement from this upgrade and need this extra resolution" "It crushes the IQ of the D7000 or any other aps camera" etc when for many people, it's simply not true. If I'm not seeing this huge difference between a 5MP and a 16MP in my use, would another 8MP over 16MP somehow now show up in my prints? I doubt it.

If I shot BIF or other types of wildlife, it might be an upgrade. If I was having issues with the AF on the D7000 being up to the task, it would probably be an improvement. For what I shoot and my output it isn't worth buying.

On this whole lack of AA filter, I still believe the output that most people have, having an AA filter isn't going to negatively impact their images. From what I've read, only under VERY specific conditions can the 800E reap the extra resolution it's technically capable of and can't imagine these same conditions don't apply to APS sensor cameras.

http://www.mattk.com/2012/10/02/my-nikon-d800-vs-d800e-comparison/

Another person summarized it better than I can "If you want great pictures, get the regular D800. If you're a pixel-counting nut who spends more time looking at your photos at 100% on a computer screen than seeing your work in print or on gallery walls, get the D800E."

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Stacey

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Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,434
Re: How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?
1

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

What monitor are you using?  I can see a clear difference between this D7100 pic and any lower model with no problem:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51747496@N08/8622476134/sizes/o/in/photostream/

See how you can read all the fine print all the way to the end on the "Proportional Scale"  without hitting control plus?

You'd never see this difference in a resolution that would -fit- full screen on 99% of the monitors made. Again looking at images blown up to unrealistic sizes, pixel peeping at 100% or viewing huge prints (or a computer screen) from inches anyway isn't my goal in photography. If it is, by all means you need to upgrade every cycle to be pleased with the newest gears results.

I shoot to create a pleasing portrait or nice landscape in an 8X10 print so the lack of an AA filter or going to a resolution 2X what a printer can print isn't buying me anything I, or that most people I would image, actually need.

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Stacey

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