Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

Started Apr 4, 2013 | Discussions
Hans Kruse Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power
6

See this http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Which-lenses-should-you-choose-for-your-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs.-Nikon-D800-Competition-is-closer-than-expected

I have both the 5D mkIII with the Canon 24-70 f/2.8L II and 70-200 f/2.8L IS II (and more) and the D800E with the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VRII. To my eyes there is little to distinguish the resolution between the 5D III with the 70-200 and the D800E with the 70-200.

I'm also shooting with a Phase One IQ160 and the resolution of the 60MP of this camera is heads and shoulders above the two DSLRs! There are no measurements of the Phase One cameras with lenses on DxO, but my feel is that the IQ160 resolves at least 50MP or more with the best lenses.

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Shaun_Nyc
Shaun_Nyc Senior Member • Posts: 2,279
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power
9

Hans Kruse wrote:

See this http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Which-lenses-should-you-choose-for-your-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs.-Nikon-D800-Competition-is-closer-than-expected

I have both the 5D mkIII with the Canon 24-70 f/2.8L II and 70-200 f/2.8L IS II (and more) and the D800E with the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VRII. To my eyes there is little to distinguish the resolution between the 5D III with the 70-200 and the D800E with the 70-200.

I'm also shooting with a Phase One IQ160 and the resolution of the 60MP of this camera is heads and shoulders above the two DSLRs! There are no measurements of the Phase One cameras with lenses on DxO, but my feel is that the IQ160 resolves at least 50MP or more with the best lenses.

It's gear head rubbish. Dxo has turned tools of photography into a measurebating platform for the inept.

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billstien Regular Member • Posts: 198
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

Hans....I look forward to your real life results from the two.  Should we see some from your upcoming May Abruzzo WS?

Cheers

bgbs Veteran Member • Posts: 3,195
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power
1

If you uprez a 5DIII image to 36mp, the difference is not that big, but if you reduce the D800 file to 22mp the difference is more discernable.  If you look at both files at 100%, you could tell that one is a 100% crop, and the other one is crisp, smooth.

Mike Stratil Contributing Member • Posts: 872
Along these lines

I have done a careful comparison of my 5D3 with the new 24-70 2.8 and my Sigma SD1 with a 70mm macro. When the files are printed at 15 x 22, the Sigma's show much better detail and silky smooth textures--just like a MF camera.

The Sigma is definitely functioning at a MF level, as the company claims. At $1900, it is a marvelous bargain.

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Michael S

Timbukto Veteran Member • Posts: 4,988
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

I commented on this thread in a post I made below about the same article.  Basically DxOMark believes that a D800 only gives about 2 PMP improvement over say the Nikon D3X.  Similarly DxoMark says the 5DmKIII gives about consistently a 2 PMP improvement over the 5DMKII.  If you have experience with these cameras and lenses do you feel the same...that the 5DMKIII is as much an improvement in real-world resolution over the 5DMKII, that the D800 is over the D3X?

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SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

Hans Kruse wrote:

I have both the 5D mkIII with the Canon 24-70 f/2.8L II and 70-200 f/2.8L IS II (and more) and the D800E with the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VRII. To my eyes there is little to distinguish the resolution between the 5D III with the 70-200 and the D800E with the 70-200.

It really comes down to lenses. I remember a while back when DPreview did a comparison between the D2X (12 mp) against the IDsMKII (16mp).  The Canon  obviously produced bigger images, but the point being made over and over again was that Canon was pushing the limits of the lenses and that these limitations meant there was little between them in the end.

While the 70-200 VRII produces nice looking images with the D800, it doesn't resolve to the resolution that some of the new high end Zeiss lenses are delivering.  The Canon 70-200 is slightly better than the Nikon, but even then, it's yet to be seen if it too would stand up to such high resolutions.

It's hardly surprising that the IQ160 is out resolving both the 35mm DSLRs.  The 24mpx jump is nothing to sneeze at.  And then. there's the MF lenses, which are a good deal more expensive than the 35mm equivalents.

There have been some interesting comparisons between the D800E and the Leica S2 (also 36mpx), where the stand out was the Leica Lenses.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/05/an-unfair-fight-nikon-d800e-vs-leica-s2-p/

The D800E vs the Hasselblad H4D40 (40 mpx back), and the differences are negligible.

http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/

Camera Labs did a superficial comparison with a D800 and a IQ160, but again, they were using a Nikon 24-70 f2.8  (hardly a heavy weight when it comes to resolving power) on the D800 and a Schneider LS 80mm f2.8 prime on the Phase One.

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D800/Nikon_D800_vs_Phase_One_medium_format_quality.shtml

But as compared to the IQ160 , I am not sure what you were expecting.

I'm also shooting with a Phase One IQ160 and the resolution of the 60MP of this camera is heads and shoulders above the two DSLRs! There are no measurements of the Phase One cameras with lenses on DxO, but my feel is that the IQ160 resolves at least 50MP or more with the best lenses.

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MASTERPPA Contributing Member • Posts: 867
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power
1

I think we are nearing the limits of resolution from Canon and Nikon 35mm lenses.

I remember reading about how you needed the best Nikon primes to get the full use of the D800E. Years ago (when the 1DsII came out) I read that 20MP was the max most lenses could resolve (wide open).  I a seeing that on all but the best of lenses. My old 24-70 2.8 looked GREAT on my 1DII and 1DIII, before I sold it, it looked horrible at 22mp on my 5DIII.

SubPrime wrote:

Hans Kruse wrote:

I have both the 5D mkIII with the Canon 24-70 f/2.8L II and 70-200 f/2.8L IS II (and more) and the D800E with the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VRII. To my eyes there is little to distinguish the resolution between the 5D III with the 70-200 and the D800E with the 70-200.

It really comes down to lenses. I remember a while back when DPreview did a comparison between the D2X (12 mp) against the IDsMKII (16mp).  The Canon  obviously produced bigger images, but the point being made over and over again was that Canon was pushing the limits of the lenses and that these limitations meant there was little between them in the end.

While the 70-200 VRII produces nice looking images with the D800, it doesn't resolve to the resolution that some of the new high end Zeiss lenses are delivering.  The Canon 70-200 is slightly better than the Nikon, but even then, it's yet to be seen if it too would stand up to such high resolutions.

It's hardly surprising that the IQ160 is out resolving both the 35mm DSLRs.  The 24mpx jump is nothing to sneeze at.  And then. there's the MF lenses, which are a good deal more expensive than the 35mm equivalents.

There have been some interesting comparisons between the D800E and the Leica S2 (also 36mpx), where the stand out was the Leica Lenses.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/05/an-unfair-fight-nikon-d800e-vs-leica-s2-p/

The D800E vs the Hasselblad H4D40 (40 mpx back), and the differences are negligible.

http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/

Camera Labs did a superficial comparison with a D800 and a IQ160, but again, they were using a Nikon 24-70 f2.8  (hardly a heavy weight when it comes to resolving power) on the D800 and a Schneider LS 80mm f2.8 prime on the Phase One.

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D800/Nikon_D800_vs_Phase_One_medium_format_quality.shtml

But as compared to the IQ160 , I am not sure what you were expecting.

I'm also shooting with a Phase One IQ160 and the resolution of the 60MP of this camera is heads and shoulders above the two DSLRs! There are no measurements of the Phase One cameras with lenses on DxO, but my feel is that the IQ160 resolves at least 50MP or more with the best lenses.

Freeman-Jo Senior Member • Posts: 2,584
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power
1

MASTERPPA wrote:

I a seeing that on all but the best of lenses. My old 24-70 2.8 looked GREAT on my 1DII and 1DIII, before I sold it, it looked horrible at 22mp on my 5DIII.

Isn't it's all about the images they can produce not how the lens look on the dSLR body.

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OP Hans Kruse Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

billstien wrote:

Hans....I look forward to your real life results from the two.  Should we see some from your upcoming May Abruzzo WS?

Cheers

Yes, I will comment on the differences and show some of them too

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OP Hans Kruse Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

bgbs wrote:

If you uprez a 5DIII image to 36mp, the difference is not that big, but if you reduce the D800 file to 22mp the difference is more discernable.  If you look at both files at 100%, you could tell that one is a 100% crop, and the other one is crisp, smooth.

There is a difference but it is relatively small and smaller than most would have expected.

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OP Hans Kruse Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

SubPrime wrote:

Hans Kruse wrote:

I have both the 5D mkIII with the Canon 24-70 f/2.8L II and 70-200 f/2.8L IS II (and more) and the D800E with the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VRII. To my eyes there is little to distinguish the resolution between the 5D III with the 70-200 and the D800E with the 70-200.

It really comes down to lenses. I remember a while back when DPreview did a comparison between the D2X (12 mp) against the IDsMKII (16mp).  The Canon  obviously produced bigger images, but the point being made over and over again was that Canon was pushing the limits of the lenses and that these limitations meant there was little between them in the end.

If we take a Nikon representative that DxO has measured for the D2X, the D300s at 12MP and compare with the D4 (16MP), and use the new high quality Nikkor 70-200 f/4VR then the D300s has 9M-Pix and the D4 has 13 M-Pix. So clearly has you seen DxO measurements of the D2X compared with the 1Ds mkII you would likely have seen a similar difference.

While the 70-200 VRII produces nice looking images with the D800, it doesn't resolve to the resolution that some of the new high end Zeiss lenses are delivering.  The Canon 70-200 is slightly better than the Nikon, but even then, it's yet to be seen if it too would stand up to such high resolutions.

It's hardly surprising that the IQ160 is out resolving both the 35mm DSLRs.  The 24mpx jump is nothing to sneeze at.  And then. there's the MF lenses, which are a good deal more expensive than the 35mm equivalents.

There have been some interesting comparisons between the D800E and the Leica S2 (also 36mpx), where the stand out was the Leica Lenses.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/05/an-unfair-fight-nikon-d800e-vs-leica-s2-p/

The D800E vs the Hasselblad H4D40 (40 mpx back), and the differences are negligible.

I don't agree that the differences are negligible. The Hassy shows considerable more detail and better tones. This is easily seen from the samples.

http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/

Camera Labs did a superficial comparison with a D800 and a IQ160, but again, they were using a Nikon 24-70 f2.8  (hardly a heavy weight when it comes to resolving power) on the D800 and a Schneider LS 80mm f2.8 prime on the Phase One.

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D800/Nikon_D800_vs_Phase_One_medium_format_quality.shtml

But as compared to the IQ160 , I am not sure what you were expecting.

The diffence is quite remarkable and with a full frame 645 sensor the sensor area is around 2.6 times larger so it is to be expected that the resolution is much higher. Just like APS-C sensors resolve less detail than a full frame sensor with the same number of pixels. And there the IQ160 has 50% more pixels as well.

I'm also shooting with a Phase One IQ160 and the resolution of the 60MP of this camera is heads and shoulders above the two DSLRs! There are no measurements of the Phase One cameras with lenses on DxO, but my feel is that the IQ160 resolves at least 50MP or more with the best lenses.

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technic Veteran Member • Posts: 8,932
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power
3

Shaun_Nyc wrote:

It's gear head rubbish. Dxo has turned tools of photography into a measurebating platform for the inept.

Mostly agree with that, although the article makes an interesting point about the importance of lens quality.

One of the main problems with the DXO ratings is that they compare body/lens combinations based on just ONE rating for the lens, which is plain stupid. There are so many factors that influence image quality, and for higher resolution bodies getting the most from a lens is very important. IMHO pictures from 5D3 and D800(E) tell a different story: if one uses a high quality lens and optimum settings there is a significant advantage for Nikon in image quality.

SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

Hans Kruse wrote:

I don't agree that the differences are negligible. The Hassy shows considerable more detail and better tones. This is easily seen from the samples.

It's a matter of perception I think.  I had to slide the curtain back and forth a few times to make note of the differences.

I'd say it has slightly more detail and better tones yes, but as the guy who did the review said, not enough to notice on even a large print.  He even suggested the D800E showed better tonality in the shadows.

Still, the MF has other advantages, mainly the look that it gives.

SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

MASTERPPA wrote:

I think we are nearing the limits of resolution from Canon and Nikon 35mm lenses.

I remember reading about how you needed the best Nikon primes to get the full use of the D800E. Years ago (when the 1DsII came out) I read that 20MP was the max most lenses could resolve (wide open).  I a seeing that on all but the best of lenses. My old 24-70 2.8 looked GREAT on my 1DII and 1DIII, before I sold it, it looked horrible at 22mp on my 5DIII.

I think it remains to be seen what Zeiss can do with these new ultra expensive primes.  The 55mm is said to rival the Leica lenses (both in IQ and price) so it's possible we might be on th verge of a  revolution in very highly spec'd lenses that push the envelope and empty out wallets.  The 24-70ISII and the 17TSE are clearly a sign of what is to come.  It's going to be interesting to see how these new offerings deal with the 40mpx + demands.

The other thing to consider is whether the 35mm DSLR format remains viable for long enough to allow or whether mirrorless supersedes it.

SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power
2

Hans Kruse wrote:

bgbs wrote:

If you uprez a 5DIII image to 36mp, the difference is not that big, but if you reduce the D800 file to 22mp the difference is more discernable.  If you look at both files at 100%, you could tell that one is a 100% crop, and the other one is crisp, smooth.

There is a difference but it is relatively small and smaller than most would have expected.

In most cases, this is true.  I own both the D800 and 5D3 and for 90% of cases, the difference is either small or irrelevant.  Still it is there and in controlled conditions like landscape and studio work, the difference is pretty evident.

It's much like the differences between the D700 and 5D2.  The D700 delivered lots of keepers, the 5D2, not so much, but the keepers that the 5D2 delivered were amazing.

schmegg Veteran Member • Posts: 5,768
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

Hans Kruse wrote:

The diffence is quite remarkable and with a full frame 645 sensor the sensor area is around 2.6 times larger so it is to be expected that the resolution is much higher.

The size of a sensor is not the governing attribute that determines its resolving power.

Just like APS-C sensors resolve less detail than a full frame sensor with the same number of pixels.

Given the exact same detail presented to the sensor plane (which is the only really valid way to determine which sensor can resolve more), an 18MP Canon crop will resolve more detail than a 22MP Canon FF sensor.

I think you are considering situations where the detail presented to the sensor plane is different to begin with - something that isdue to the difference in sensor size in many situations.

Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,621
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power
1

Hans Kruse wrote:

bgbs wrote:

If you uprez a 5DIII image to 36mp, the difference is not that big, but if you reduce the D800 file to 22mp the difference is more discernable.  If you look at both files at 100%, you could tell that one is a 100% crop, and the other one is crisp, smooth.

There is a difference but it is relatively small and smaller than most would have expected.

with good lenses I have no problem to se the difference between my Canon and Nikon  regarding resolution, The Suede and I did  a comparison between Hasselblad 40Mp and d800, with Phocus Hasselblads own raw converter there was a small advantage to the Hasselblads combo but also  8-10 times higher price .

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Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,621
Re: Interesting article on DxO about 5D III and D800 resolving power

SubPrime wrote:

Hans Kruse wrote:

bgbs wrote:

If you uprez a 5DIII image to 36mp, the difference is not that big, but if you reduce the D800 file to 22mp the difference is more discernable.  If you look at both files at 100%, you could tell that one is a 100% crop, and the other one is crisp, smooth.

There is a difference but it is relatively small and smaller than most would have expected.

In most cases, this is true.  I own both the D800 and 5D3 and for 90% of cases, the difference is either small or irrelevant.  Still it is there and in controlled conditions like landscape and studio work, the difference is pretty evident.

It's much like the differences between the D700 and 5D2.  The D700 delivered lots of keepers, the 5D2, not so much, but the keepers that the 5D2 delivered were amazing.

People must look at the  small details in a picture.

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Rick Knepper
Rick Knepper Forum Pro • Posts: 16,121
The article premise is a lot of hooey about nothing.

Here's what the article boils down to:

"From our recent Nikon D800 overview it’s clear the camera is the leader in outright P-Mpix (Sharpness) and overall DxOMark scores, but the rival Canon EOS 5D Mark III is not as far behind as the pixel counts suggest."

So what? Is someone actually thinking there would a 1/3 improvement in IQ in the D800 vs the 5D3?

Until someone actually shoots both cameras with the same lens (fairly easy to accomplish but not sure why this isn't being done by review sites - buy a couple of Zeiss or Sigma 50s in Nikon and Canon mounts for God's Sake) and compares the images on the same media, no one knows what the visual impact of one camera over the other really is. For example, it may be unfair to compare systems like the D800E/24-70G to the 5D3/24-70 II since the 24-70 II is such a great lens. In November, I shot the 5D2/24-70 II vs. the D3x/24-70G and much preferred the Canon files (mostly due to the lens). I am also confused by the reference to the P-Mpix score in an artcile about cameras since this score is lens related.

Hans Kruse wrote:

See this http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Which-lenses-should-you-choose-for-your-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs.-Nikon-D800-Competition-is-closer-than-expected

I have both the 5D mkIII with the Canon 24-70 f/2.8L II and 70-200 f/2.8L IS II (and more) and the D800E with the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VRII. To my eyes there is little to distinguish the resolution between the 5D III with the 70-200 and the D800E with the 70-200.

I'm also shooting with a Phase One IQ160 and the resolution of the 60MP of this camera is heads and shoulders above the two DSLRs! There are no measurements of the Phase One cameras with lenses on DxO, but my feel is that the IQ160 resolves at least 50MP or more with the best lenses.

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