D800 100% pixel view in LV with firmware update!

Started Apr 2, 2013 | Discussions
primeshooter
OP primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 5,124
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

Horshack wrote:

dnorth12 wrote:

Horschack,

Can't zoom on this image like the original thread one. But from this size the image review still looks better than live view, just can't say how much as compared to the original thread. Mind giving your opinion on this one?

The 1.01 LV vs Review comp I posted was at a different focus distance vs the 1.00 comp I took last year. Here's another 1.01 comp at about the same focus distance for a better comparison - looks identical to what I saw last year with 1.00. Click "original size" to view at 100%.

D800 1.01 Firmware Comp #2

D800 1.00 Firmware Comp (Last Year)

Like others here have noticed, I have seen a huge improvement, the picture you showed on the left, mine is much better than that, sorry but it is! Have you tried with exposure preview on and off in LV? Mine is a whole lot better, I can actually focus at 100% wheras before it was good guesswork at best.

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,993
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

primeshooter wrote:

Like others here have noticed, I have seen a huge improvement, the picture you showed on the left, mine is much better than that, sorry but it is! Have you tried with exposure preview on and off in LV? Mine is a whole lot better, I can actually focus at 100% wheras before it was good guesswork at best.

Since the D800/E's interpolation only skips horizontal lines the artifacts will be more obvious on some subjects vs. others. My 1.00 vs 1.01 LV images posted above show identical results so I'm not sure what to make of others who say there's improvement; I have to trust my eyes over subjective opinions, unless someone can post photos of the LCD in LV vs preview for a subject similar to my cereal box that has well-defined horizontal and vertical detail.

Exposure preview doesn't affect the interpolation I see. Only the picture style can affect it (sharpness, contrast), the same as it did in 1.00.

primeshooter
OP primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 5,124
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

Horshack wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Like others here have noticed, I have seen a huge improvement, the picture you showed on the left, mine is much better than that, sorry but it is! Have you tried with exposure preview on and off in LV? Mine is a whole lot better, I can actually focus at 100% wheras before it was good guesswork at best.

Since the D800/E's interpolation only skips horizontal lines the artifacts will be more obvious on some subjects vs. others. My 1.00 vs 1.01 LV images posted above show identical results so I'm not sure what to make of others who say there's improvement; I have to trust my eyes over subjective opinions, unless someone can post photos of the LCD in LV vs preview for a subject similar to my cereal box that has well-defined horizontal and vertical detail.

Exposure preview doesn't affect the interpolation I see. Only the picture style can affect it (sharpness, contrast), the same as it did in 1.00.

Perhaps. I've tried focusing with trees and leaves in photographs and found it much easier than before. I won't be often focusing on the back of a cereal box or whatever, text is gonna show up the issue much more. Like I said, for the real world I notice an improvement.

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,993
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

primeshooter wrote:

Perhaps. I've tried focusing with trees and leaves in photographs and found it much easier than before. I won't be often focusing on the back of a cereal box or whatever, text is gonna show up the issue much more. Like I said, for the real world I notice an improvement.

The world in my kitchen follows the same laws of physics as what's outside Btw, I did a video last year demonstrating what the interpolation looks like for a variety of subjects. You can watch ithere.

Dave Largent Senior Member • Posts: 2,068
D600, too?

Horshack wrote:

I did a video last year demonstrating what the interpolation looks like for a variety of subjects. You can watch it here.

Do you happen to know if the D600 liveview works the same as the D800 in that there is the interpolation at 100% view?

Jim Trainor Regular Member • Posts: 270
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

Thank you to Horshack and his valuable attention to detail. It was his video last year that first educated me about this issue. His "before and after" screen shots are compelling and hard to argue with (which I won't). Nonetheless, credible folks (including me) seem to be seeing improvement in 100% LV to the point that it is now a useful focusing aid. I'll be interested to see how all this shakes out over the coming days.

 Jim Trainor's gear list:Jim Trainor's gear list
Sony RX100 II Fujifilm X-T1 Fujifilm X-T3 Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS +3 more
paulraphael New Member • Posts: 16
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

Horshack wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Perhaps. I've tried focusing with trees and leaves in photographs and found it much easier than before. I won't be often focusing on the back of a cereal box or whatever, text is gonna show up the issue much more. Like I said, for the real world I notice an improvement.

The world in my kitchen follows the same laws of physics as what's outside Btw, I did a video last year demonstrating what the interpolation looks like for a variety of subjects. You can watch ithere.

I think this issue merits some more investigation. You're showing still images of the live view screen; ease of focussing relies on the perception of shift from out-of-focus to in-focus.

I have no evidence to offer. However, my experience of focussing the camera for the first time since the update was startling. LV hasn't gotten perfect. Not even as good as as on the 5DIII. But I'm finding it much better than what I'm used to. I'll continue to evaluate this impression while doing real work with the camera.

Like any photographer on the internet, of course, I could be out of my mind. No reason to leap too that conclusion immediately. This could be interesting.

paulraphael New Member • Posts: 16
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

I just looked again and the difference is more dramatic than what I remembered from last night. Live view has gone from a barely useable focus aid to a pleasurably useable one.

I've been focussing on many things at many different apertures. There's still noise, and occasional artifacts that look like aliasing, but it doesn't look like the interpolated mush that I'm used to.

Since there are differences of opinion here we shouldn't rule out the possibility of some cameras responding differently from others. Such a glitch would be illogical and weird, but then again, this is the d800 we're talking about ...

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,993
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

paulraphael wrote:

I just looked again and the difference is more dramatic than what I remembered from last night. Live view has gone from a barely useable focus aid to a pleasurably useable one.

I've been focussing on many things at many different apertures. There's still noise, and occasional artifacts that look like aliasing, but it doesn't look like the interpolated mush that I'm used to.

Since there are differences of opinion here we shouldn't rule out the possibility of some cameras responding differently from others. Such a glitch would be illogical and weird, but then again, this is the d800 we're talking about ...

One thing to keep in mind is that the interpolation is highly dependent on both the horz/vert detail of the subject and the focusing distance; if I move my D800 closer to my cereal box subject the clarity improves alot, but this is only because of the frequency of detail difference at that distance and I observed the same phenomena in the original firmware.

In your prior post you mentioned that focus pops in/out better...that would imply maybe a higher frame rate in the LV preview. I never had issue with the frame rate in 1.00 and not sure if its increased in 1.01.

Also, perhaps there's a difference in settings between our bodies, and the firmware update is changing how the camera responds to those settings. When I tested this originally last year the LV preview only changed when I altered the picture profile sharpness or contrast settings - increasing those made focusing a little easier but didn't improve the general clarity.

It would be helpful if those who see an improvement could describe in better detail what exactly about the preview they believe has improved.

paulraphael New Member • Posts: 16
Re: Another 1.01 LV vs Image Review comp

I've just played with it a bit more. Like a lot of people, I use a custom picture setting with the sharpening cranked all the way, in order to make live view focus somewhat useable. I just now focussed on a bunch of things, both with sharpening up all the way and then with it turned down to 2. The oversharpened version is still better, but the difference is much smaller than I remember.

I'm simply seeing greater image clarity on the screen, which makes it less ambiguous when detail comes into focus. There are fewer edge artifacts and there's less noise. The noise in LV can be especially irksome, because it's in constant motion, like snow on a tv screen.

If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that Nikon improved the interpolation algorithm. It still seems to be interpolating, since there are some lingering artifacts. For Nikon to document an improvement of this nature, they'd have to admit an issue in the first place. Which doesn't seem to be their style.

Horshack wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that the interpolation is highly dependent on both the horz/vert detail of the subject and the focusing distance; if I move my D800 closer to my cereal box subject the clarity improves alot, but this is only because of the frequency of detail difference at that distance and I observed the same phenomena in the original firmware.

In your prior post you mentioned that focus pops in/out better...that would imply maybe a higher frame rate in the LV preview. I never had issue with the frame rate in 1.00 and not sure if its increased in 1.01.

Also, perhaps there's a difference in settings between our bodies, and the firmware update is changing how the camera responds to those settings. When I tested this originally last year the LV preview only changed when I altered the picture profile sharpness or contrast settings - increasing those made focusing a little easier but didn't improve the general clarity.

It would be helpful if those who see an improvement could describe in better detail what exactly about the preview they believe has improved.

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,993
Re: D600, too?

Dave Largent wrote:

Horshack wrote:

I did a video last year demonstrating what the interpolation looks like for a variety of subjects. You can watch it here.

Do you happen to know if the D600 liveview works the same as the D800 in that there is the interpolation at 100% view?

I haven't used a D600 myself but others have said it has a good 100% preview.

p m h Regular Member • Posts: 205
Live view clarity improved in AF-S and MF only. No improvement with AF-C

Horshack wrote:

It was the first thing I checked after upgrading and I didn't notice any difference.

Just found out something interesting. While it does not look improved when focusing in LV in AF-C mode, it does improve remarkably if you switch to AF-S or MF. Try it out, its awesome.

 p m h's gear list:p m h's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Nikon D810 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +15 more
Daniel Lauring
Daniel Lauring Veteran Member • Posts: 9,343
Don't notice a screen difference...but definitely a focus improvement.

Since the update it focuses much faster in LV mode.

p m h Regular Member • Posts: 205
Re: Don't notice a screen difference...but definitely a focus improvement.

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Since the update it focuses much faster in LV mode.

Just focus something in Live View at 100% while using AF-S. Then while in LV switch to AF-C. You will see what i am talking about.

 p m h's gear list:p m h's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Nikon D810 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +15 more
paulraphael New Member • Posts: 16
Re: Don't notice a screen difference...but definitely a focus improvement.

I worked a little tonight in the lower light conditions that I confront a lot ... ISO 100, f8, 13 seconds.

At this light level live view at 100% is still awful—a hailstorm of noise. But I was able to focus without a fair amount of confidence. Just not with the ease that I experienced in more ample light.

There were too many variables for me to say with certainty whether or not it worked better than before the update. It may have.

I don't know how this performance compares with other cameras in low light.

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,993
Re: Live view clarity improved in AF-S and MF only. No improvement with AF-C

p m h wrote:

Horshack wrote:

It was the first thing I checked after upgrading and I didn't notice any difference.

Just found out something interesting. While it does not look improved when focusing in LV in AF-C mode, it does improve remarkably if you switch to AF-S or MF. Try it out, its awesome.

I always use AF-S or MF. I just tried AF-F and it's definitely worse than AF-S/MF but AF-S/MF w/1.01 is no different than AF-S/MF w/1.00 on my body.

Placation101 Regular Member • Posts: 455
Re: D600, too?

Horshack wrote:

Dave Largent wrote:

Horshack wrote:

I did a video last year demonstrating what the interpolation looks like for a variety of subjects. You can watch it here.

Do you happen to know if the D600 liveview works the same as the D800 in that there is the interpolation at 100% view?

I haven't used a D600 myself but others have said it has a good 100% preview.

Yeah it has better live view from pixel perspective. It's great in that sense but it is auto gain as far as the image, same picture regardless of setting pretty much except extreme dark. No exposure preview, which to me is just as easily solved by snapping a frame as it is to hit the live view button.

i can only assume it's too hard to deal with the amount of info from the sensor nd as a consequence you get inferior to expected live view or you get s'more sluggish performance, I guess I prefer how it is now?

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,993
Re: Don't notice a screen difference...but definitely a focus improvement.

paulraphael wrote:

I don't know how this performance compares with other cameras in low light.

Poorly. Here's the D800 compared to the 5DM3 for low-light LV: YouTube Video

just Tony
just Tony Senior Member • Posts: 2,569
2 Pictures = 2000 Words
1

The LV screen image quality looks exactly the same before and after the upgrade IF the camera is set to AF-F focusing mode. Maybe that explains the several reports of "no change".

Things are tremendously better (than AF-F) when you switch the camera to AF-S mode. I didn't think to check that before/after the firmware upgrade but it looks so much nicer now that my "high magnification" assignment of the center button has now been upgraded to "one click down from maximum" instead of two clicks down. Max - 1 magnification with the new firmware seems to look cleaner than the Max - 2 before.

Here are cereal box pictures to illustrate what I'm seeing. (brick walls and cats are so passe').

Max magnification, AF-F mode. That's not motion blur or missed focus.

Max magnification, AF-S. One click lower is a very clean view.

If you are in the blurry AF-F mode and you switch the lens or body to Manual Focus, then the view cleans up and looks exactly like the AF-S mode.

There may be a processing power limitation that explains why the video stream gets compromised when the camera is set to run closed-loop full time focusing in the Contrast Detection mode.

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,993
Re: 2 Pictures = 2000 Words

just Tony wrote:

The LV screen image quality looks exactly the same before and after the upgrade IF the camera is set to AF-F focusing mode. Maybe that explains the several reports of "no change".

Things are tremendously better (than AF-F) when you switch the camera to AF-S mode. I didn't think to check that before/after the firmware upgrade but it looks so much nicer now that my "high magnification" assignment of the center button has now been upgraded to "one click down from maximum" instead of two clicks down. Max - 1 magnification with the new firmware seems to look cleaner than the Max - 2 before.

Here are cereal box pictures to illustrate what I'm seeing. (brick walls and cats are so passe').

If you are in the blurry AF-F mode and you switch the lens or body to Manual Focus, then the view cleans up and looks exactly like the AF-S mode.

There may be a processing power limitation that explains why the video stream gets compromised when the camera is set to run closed-loop full time focusing in the Contrast Detection mode.

Thanks. I see the same interpolation artifacts on your AF-S as I see on mine. And in my AF-S comparison @ 100% for 1.00 vs 1.01 shows no change (here).

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