Switzerland already more European than the UK?

Started Mar 26, 2013 | Discussions
Wheatfield
Wheatfield Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
Re: Sorry Robert....

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

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Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

So what your saying is we should have patted the Germans on the back and just told them to "run along like good chaps" after millions of our men had just been killed and wounded over 4 years trying stop German Imperialism? Presumably by your logic the Jews were responsible for their own concentration camps as well.

You are assigning blame for a couple of world wars. I'm just clarifying where that blame actually lies. WWII was avoidable, and probably wouldn't have happened had the Treaty of Versailles not been so small minded and onerous. Unfortunately, after WWI, Britain and France were hell bent on revenge (good diplomacy there), and decided to extract it any way they could. WWII was the result. You have no one to blame but yourselves for both world wars. After all, it takes two to tango.

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RobertSigmund
OP RobertSigmund Forum Pro • Posts: 10,750
Re: Sorry Robert....

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

So what your saying is we should have patted the Germans on the back and just told them to "run along like good chaps" after millions of our men had just been killed and wounded over 4 years trying stop German Imperialism?

UK deaths, including Civilians, in all WW II which means its whole length and including the Asian theater: 450,900

Presumably by your logic the Jews were responsible for their own concentration camps as well.

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Tony
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57even Forum Pro • Posts: 11,185
Re: Sorry Robert....

papillon_65 wrote:

57even wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

57even wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

RobertSigmund wrote:

the CAP

pardon: what is CAP?

is nothing short of a French tax on the rest of the EU and it should go.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

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Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

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Tony
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but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I think you should stop living in the past. The world moved on and you obviously have not.

If you want to know about "dishonourable agreements" and invasion of foreign countries, I suggest you look very hard at the history of British colonialism. Take a LONG look at the slave trade, Cecil Rhodes, the East India Company and the Opium Wars as a starter for 10, then look at what we did to the Tasmanian Aborigines and our renaging of all the deals we had with the occupants of Egypt and Palestine after WW1 ... I could go on but hypocrisy doesn't need more than a few examples to prove a point.

Thats all well and good but when I start taking lessons on diplomacy from a German will be the day hell freezes over. You may well be another left wing apologist hell bent on making the British people feel guilty for breathing but we've had enough of that in the last 15 years thanks.

One: I'm not a left winger, I run a business. Like most non-financial based businesses it depends a lot on the EU. I have had to deal with the US as well, and I would frankly trust our EU partners  more.

I never doubted you had an interest for one minute.

And what's your interest? Mine at least is based on experience and pragmatism. Your;s seems to be based on some irrational prejudice, but certainly not your interests or anyone elses.

Two: I don't think we should live in the past, but you can't blame Germans for their past, and excuse us for ours in the same breath. Personally I think you cannot hold a new generation to account for the actions of it's ancestors, but it's YOU who keep ranting on about Germans for what they did in 1939.

It's not a rant, it's a rather important point of order in the context of what was said. People have a nasty habit of trying to re-write history or ignoring it, unfortunately that often results in it repeating itself.

So why not apply the same argument to the British?

As for German diplomacy, I would rather have Angela Merkel as a leader than any of the limp wristed idiots we have had in charge for the last 20 years. Even the Poles, Czecks and Slovaks have benefited from "German Diplomacy" to their mutual benefit over the last 20 years.

Im not sure about Merkel but I agree about our governments in the last 20 years, truly abysmal.

So I say again, you want sovereignty? For our daft judges and incompetent ministers?

And if you don't like Merkel or Kohl, look where Germany has come in 35 years (despite having to cope with the economic revival of East Germany and helping a lot of other post-communist states in the process). Compare with the UK. Point made.

We just went into Iraq as Bush's poodle. Do you think we have ANY diplomatic credibility left anywhere? We lost it in the Middle East, India, China and now Europe. Genius. Even Latin America barely knows we exist.

I'm not sure international credibility is even so important now, as someone who has served all over the place I'd be quite happy to adopt a low key stance and abandon any ideas of self aggrandisement anymore.

It's nothing to do with being "important" it's to do with trade - the basic currency of economic survival. The EU is important, and as one of the biggest economies in the EU, we can benefit directly from the EU's improving links with China and South America. Going it alone won't get us anywhere - who is going to take us seriously? Do people build factories in the UK to sell to UK customers only (answer, no of course not).

We became rich on the back of an Empire. Those days are gone, thankfully, but the point remains that scale is important. Small countries cannot compete on their own any more. Gone are the days when technology was simple and you could make everything yourself.

China and America will deal with their economic peers. That means the EU, not us.

I think we can trade with who we like, I don't buy the Europe or bust argument personally but we can agree to disagree.

I don't care whether you buy it or not, in all important economic sectors it's critical.

Get over it, it's the new world - you can be part of something that matters or disappear off the map. Take your pick.

Well we'll always be part of it one way or another. My real objection is the way that the British people have been consistently lied to by successive governments. Give us our referendum and I'll accept the result whatever it is. Until that happens I refuse to recognise any European Federal state on the basis of its undemocratic existence.

What Federal State? Stop reading the Tory press for gods sake. There is a case for an economic pan-european agreement, AND closer political integration for those that need/desire it. But the harmonisation of Euro laws is many cases is a good thing, and certainly no worse than what it replaces - like those silly French yellow headlights.

All European states retain their own government, taxation and legal systems. The only harmonisation is in relation to trade, the human rights constitution (would you rather have our stupid libel laws and ambulance chasers ?) and attempts at banking regulation that would (ironically) have prevented the crash.

But is it surprising that so many rich financial nobs are whining about it (and funding UKIP) when it's their bonuses on the line. Or do you believe all that "attracting talent" nonsense.

Our grandfathers and great grandfathers fought for democracy in Europe and many made the ultimate sacrifice. I'm not about to besmirch their names by accepting a backdoor totalitarian Federal Europe just because some conniving politicians think its a great idea. Get it out in the open and lets have a referendum. No more lies and deceit because we all know where this is going.

What EXACTLY have you been lied to about, pray tell? Give me some examples.

And what exactly should we vote on, since we never entered the Euro? Should we have voted against the EU's fine against Microsoft? We hardly even VOTE for our MEP's so we can hardly complain if they don't represent us.

I'm not campaigning to create a European superstate, but I have no heard anyone suggest that.

I do want to maintain a harmonised European trading block and defence agreement and you can't administer that by committee. I suspect 10 other European countries would probably like that as well, and few others probably wish in hindsight that they had never joined.

But lets be clear here, OUR banks were part of the problem. In fact a very large part of it.

And the lies are mainly coming from the press.

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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: Sorry Robert....

57even wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

57even wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

57even wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

RobertSigmund wrote:

the CAP

pardon: what is CAP?

is nothing short of a French tax on the rest of the EU and it should go.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

-- hide signature --

Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I think you should stop living in the past. The world moved on and you obviously have not.

If you want to know about "dishonourable agreements" and invasion of foreign countries, I suggest you look very hard at the history of British colonialism. Take a LONG look at the slave trade, Cecil Rhodes, the East India Company and the Opium Wars as a starter for 10, then look at what we did to the Tasmanian Aborigines and our renaging of all the deals we had with the occupants of Egypt and Palestine after WW1 ... I could go on but hypocrisy doesn't need more than a few examples to prove a point.

Thats all well and good but when I start taking lessons on diplomacy from a German will be the day hell freezes over. You may well be another left wing apologist hell bent on making the British people feel guilty for breathing but we've had enough of that in the last 15 years thanks.

One: I'm not a left winger, I run a business. Like most non-financial based businesses it depends a lot on the EU. I have had to deal with the US as well, and I would frankly trust our EU partners  more.

I never doubted you had an interest for one minute.

And what's your interest? Mine at least is based on experience and pragmatism. Your;s seems to be based on some irrational prejudice, but certainly not your interests or anyone elses.

Two: I don't think we should live in the past, but you can't blame Germans for their past, and excuse us for ours in the same breath. Personally I think you cannot hold a new generation to account for the actions of it's ancestors, but it's YOU who keep ranting on about Germans for what they did in 1939.

It's not a rant, it's a rather important point of order in the context of what was said. People have a nasty habit of trying to re-write history or ignoring it, unfortunately that often results in it repeating itself.

So why not apply the same argument to the British?

As for German diplomacy, I would rather have Angela Merkel as a leader than any of the limp wristed idiots we have had in charge for the last 20 years. Even the Poles, Czecks and Slovaks have benefited from "German Diplomacy" to their mutual benefit over the last 20 years.

Im not sure about Merkel but I agree about our governments in the last 20 years, truly abysmal.

So I say again, you want sovereignty? For our daft judges and incompetent ministers?

And if you don't like Merkel or Kohl, look where Germany has come in 35 years (despite having to cope with the economic revival of East Germany and helping a lot of other post-communist states in the process). Compare with the UK. Point made.

We just went into Iraq as Bush's poodle. Do you think we have ANY diplomatic credibility left anywhere? We lost it in the Middle East, India, China and now Europe. Genius. Even Latin America barely knows we exist.

I'm not sure international credibility is even so important now, as someone who has served all over the place I'd be quite happy to adopt a low key stance and abandon any ideas of self aggrandisement anymore.

It's nothing to do with being "important" it's to do with trade - the basic currency of economic survival. The EU is important, and as one of the biggest economies in the EU, we can benefit directly from the EU's improving links with China and South America. Going it alone won't get us anywhere - who is going to take us seriously? Do people build factories in the UK to sell to UK customers only (answer, no of course not).

We became rich on the back of an Empire. Those days are gone, thankfully, but the point remains that scale is important. Small countries cannot compete on their own any more. Gone are the days when technology was simple and you could make everything yourself.

China and America will deal with their economic peers. That means the EU, not us.

I think we can trade with who we like, I don't buy the Europe or bust argument personally but we can agree to disagree.

I don't care whether you buy it or not, in all important economic sectors it's critical.

Get over it, it's the new world - you can be part of something that matters or disappear off the map. Take your pick.

Well we'll always be part of it one way or another. My real objection is the way that the British people have been consistently lied to by successive governments. Give us our referendum and I'll accept the result whatever it is. Until that happens I refuse to recognise any European Federal state on the basis of its undemocratic existence.

What Federal State? Stop reading the Tory press for gods sake. There is a case for an economic pan-european agreement, AND closer political integration for those that need/desire it. But the harmonisation of Euro laws is many cases is a good thing, and certainly no worse than what it replaces - like those silly French yellow headlights.

All European states retain their own government, taxation and legal systems. The only harmonisation is in relation to trade, the human rights constitution (would you rather have our stupid libel laws and ambulance chasers ?) and attempts at banking regulation that would (ironically) have prevented the crash.

But is it surprising that so many rich financial nobs are whining about it (and funding UKIP) when it's their bonuses on the line. Or do you believe all that "attracting talent" nonsense.

Our grandfathers and great grandfathers fought for democracy in Europe and many made the ultimate sacrifice. I'm not about to besmirch their names by accepting a backdoor totalitarian Federal Europe just because some conniving politicians think its a great idea. Get it out in the open and lets have a referendum. No more lies and deceit because we all know where this is going.

What EXACTLY have you been lied to about, pray tell? Give me some examples.

And what exactly should we vote on, since we never entered the Euro? Should we have voted against the EU's fine against Microsoft? We hardly even VOTE for our MEP's so we can hardly complain if they don't represent us.

I'm not campaigning to create a European superstate, but I have no heard anyone suggest that.

I do want to maintain a harmonised European trading block and defence agreement and you can't administer that by committee. I suspect 10 other European countries would probably like that as well, and few others probably wish in hindsight that they had never joined.

But lets be clear here, OUR banks were part of the problem. In fact a very large part of it.

And the lies are mainly coming from the press.

I don't disagree with some of what you say but perhaps you can tell me why successive governments have fought tooth and nail to avoid any kind of referendum? That smacks of some kind of agenda to me.

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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: Sorry Robert....

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Thats all well and good but when I start taking lessons on diplomacy from a German will be the day hell freezes over. You may well be another left wing apologist hell bent on making the British people feel guilty for breathing but we've had enough of that in the last 15 years thanks.

It is obvious that you take your diplomacy lessons from Attila the Hun. If you want something to feel guilty about, feel guilty about your atrocious food, the crap cars and motorcycles you've foisted on the world over the past few decades, and Downton Abbey.

Well Britain isn't really known as an exporter of food, nor motorbikes, nor cars to be honest. The only cars and bikes tend to be prestige marques that foreigners seem to like. I'm not sure which planet you've arrived from but I suspect you're another of the Guardian reading champagne socialists. The BBC makes quite a bit of money from series like Downton Abbey so I think that completes your rather inept attempt at attacking Britain. On a scale 1-10 on gettings things woefully inaccurate I think you just made a 10

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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: Sorry Robert....

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

So what your saying is we should have patted the Germans on the back and just told them to "run along like good chaps" after millions of our men had just been killed and wounded over 4 years trying stop German Imperialism? Presumably by your logic the Jews were responsible for their own concentration camps as well.

You are assigning blame for a couple of world wars. I'm just clarifying where that blame actually lies. WWII was avoidable, and probably wouldn't have happened had the Treaty of Versailles not been so small minded and onerous. Unfortunately, after WWI, Britain and France were hell bent on revenge (good diplomacy there), and decided to extract it any way they could. WWII was the result. You have no one to blame but yourselves for both world wars. After all, it takes two to tango.

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

In case it escaped your notice, economic conditions for everyone were not great in the 30's and no-one was able to predict that. As for "revenge", when you've just lost lost the best part of a generation of your men over a needless war then yes, you do tend to get a bit pi$$ed about that, who'd have thought it? If you had any conceivable idea about the sacrifice that British men made during that conflict then you might have some idea of why things unfolded as they did. If you should ever visit these shores, feel free to visit any City, town or village and look for the war memorials, you'll always find them, with a long list of the fallen, they're hard to miss because they are everywhere. People like you make me sick, spineless individuals who are the first to complain but the last to do anything about anything.

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Tony
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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: Sorry Robert....

RobertSigmund wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

So what your saying is we should have patted the Germans on the back and just told them to "run along like good chaps" after millions of our men had just been killed and wounded over 4 years trying stop German Imperialism?

UK deaths, including Civilians, in all WW II which means its whole length and including the Asian theater: 450,900

Presumably by your logic the Jews were responsible for their own concentration camps as well.

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WWI which I was referring to, British military deaths - 886,939, British total wounded - 1,663,435. The Germans lost over 2 million and the French 1.4 million.

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Wheatfield
Wheatfield Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
Re: Sorry Robert....

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Thats all well and good but when I start taking lessons on diplomacy from a German will be the day hell freezes over. You may well be another left wing apologist hell bent on making the British people feel guilty for breathing but we've had enough of that in the last 15 years thanks.

It is obvious that you take your diplomacy lessons from Attila the Hun. If you want something to feel guilty about, feel guilty about your atrocious food, the crap cars and motorcycles you've foisted on the world over the past few decades, and Downton Abbey.

Well Britain isn't really known as an exporter of food, nor motorbikes, nor cars to be honest.

One can go to Britain to sample the food, though I don't know why one would want to. I have owned a few British motorcycles (yes, they do export the things), a BSA and a couple of Triumphs (my Harleys were more reliable, which is saying more bad about the British junk than good about the Hawgs), and I've had friends who have owned various Triumphs, MGs and Jaguars, none of which were any great shakes for staying running.

We don't call Lucas the prince of darkness because the electrics are any good.

The only cars and bikes tend to be prestige marques that foreigners seem to like.

See above, and you don't know what you are talking about..

I'm not sure which planet you've arrived from but I suspect you're another of the Guardian reading champagne socialists. The BBC makes quite a bit of money from series like Downton Abbey so I think that completes your rather inept attempt at attacking Britain. On a scale 1-10 on gettings things woefully inaccurate I think you just made a 10

You need to pull your head out of your nether region.

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papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: Sorry Robert....

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Thats all well and good but when I start taking lessons on diplomacy from a German will be the day hell freezes over. You may well be another left wing apologist hell bent on making the British people feel guilty for breathing but we've had enough of that in the last 15 years thanks.

It is obvious that you take your diplomacy lessons from Attila the Hun. If you want something to feel guilty about, feel guilty about your atrocious food, the crap cars and motorcycles you've foisted on the world over the past few decades, and Downton Abbey.

Well Britain isn't really known as an exporter of food, nor motorbikes, nor cars to be honest.

One can go to Britain to sample the food, though I don't know why one would want to. I have owned a few British motorcycles (yes, they do export the things), a BSA and a couple of Triumphs (my Harleys were more reliable, which is saying more bad about the British junk than good about the Hawgs), and I've had friends who have owned various Triumphs, MGs and Jaguars, none of which were any great shakes for staying running.

We don't call Lucas the prince of darkness because the electrics are any good.

Seriously, how long ago do you think Britain stopped making the likes of MG's and Triumphs lol. The cars that British workmen currently make are more likely to be Nissans and they do it very well by all accounts, competitive against the rest of Europe for sure.

The only cars and bikes tend to be prestige marques that foreigners seem to like.

See above, and you don't know what you are talking about..

Ditto

I'm not sure which planet you've arrived from but I suspect you're another of the Guardian reading champagne socialists. The BBC makes quite a bit of money from series like Downton Abbey so I think that completes your rather inept attempt at attacking Britain. On a scale 1-10 on gettings things woefully inaccurate I think you just made a 10

You need to pull your head out of your nether region.

I think you've lost the plot. I have to say I'm not sure I've ever seen a Canadian car of any make, I'm not sure such a beast ever existed lol. Canada isn't exactly known for its culinary delights here either, in fact what is canadian food? tinned Salmon?

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Tony
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Wheatfield
Wheatfield Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
Re: Sorry Robert....
1

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

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Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

So what your saying is we should have patted the Germans on the back and just told them to "run along like good chaps" after millions of our men had just been killed and wounded over 4 years trying stop German Imperialism? Presumably by your logic the Jews were responsible for their own concentration camps as well.

You are assigning blame for a couple of world wars. I'm just clarifying where that blame actually lies. WWII was avoidable, and probably wouldn't have happened had the Treaty of Versailles not been so small minded and onerous. Unfortunately, after WWI, Britain and France were hell bent on revenge (good diplomacy there), and decided to extract it any way they could. WWII was the result. You have no one to blame but yourselves for both world wars. After all, it takes two to tango.

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Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

In case it escaped your notice, economic conditions for everyone were not great in the 30's and no-one was able to predict that. As for "revenge", when you've just lost lost the best part of a generation of your men over a needless war then yes, you do tend to get a bit pi$$ed about that, who'd have thought it? If you had any conceivable idea about the sacrifice that British men made during that conflict then you might have some idea of why things unfolded as they did. If you should ever visit these shores, feel free to visit any City, town or village and look for the war memorials, you'll always find them, with a long list of the fallen, they're hard to miss because they are everywhere. People like you make me sick, spineless individuals who are the first to complain but the last to do anything about anything.

You just don't get it do you? WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. Are you really so bloody thick that you are posting crap here and don't know what treaties were in place in Europe in the early part of the last century? WWII could have been avoided except for the onerous Treaty of Versailles, which was the brainchild of the British and French.

Learn your history before you come here making a joke of your own intelligence.

BTW, if I want to see war memorials, I just have to go to a few places in my own city. I can even find the names of my own family members inscribed on them. Four out of five of the young men on my fathers side of the family went to fight in your stupid world war 2 (apparently for no reason, if morons like you were the result of saving your stupid British asses), two came home. Don't talk to me about sacrifice, you pile of excrement.

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Wheatfield
Wheatfield Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
Re: Sorry Robert....

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Thats all well and good but when I start taking lessons on diplomacy from a German will be the day hell freezes over. You may well be another left wing apologist hell bent on making the British people feel guilty for breathing but we've had enough of that in the last 15 years thanks.

It is obvious that you take your diplomacy lessons from Attila the Hun. If you want something to feel guilty about, feel guilty about your atrocious food, the crap cars and motorcycles you've foisted on the world over the past few decades, and Downton Abbey.

Well Britain isn't really known as an exporter of food, nor motorbikes, nor cars to be honest.

One can go to Britain to sample the food, though I don't know why one would want to. I have owned a few British motorcycles (yes, they do export the things), a BSA and a couple of Triumphs (my Harleys were more reliable, which is saying more bad about the British junk than good about the Hawgs), and I've had friends who have owned various Triumphs, MGs and Jaguars, none of which were any great shakes for staying running.

We don't call Lucas the prince of darkness because the electrics are any good.

Seriously, how long ago do you think Britain stopped making the likes of MG's and Triumphs lol. The cars that British workmen currently make are more likely to be Nissans and they do it very well by all accounts, competitive against the rest of Europe for sure.

Pity they made such crap that they turned off most of the world for a generation.

The only cars and bikes tend to be prestige marques that foreigners seem to like.

See above, and you don't know what you are talking about..

Ditto

I'm not sure which planet you've arrived from but I suspect you're another of the Guardian reading champagne socialists. The BBC makes quite a bit of money from series like Downton Abbey so I think that completes your rather inept attempt at attacking Britain. On a scale 1-10 on gettings things woefully inaccurate I think you just made a 10

You need to pull your head out of your nether region.

I think you've lost the plot. I have to say I'm not sure I've ever seen a Canadian car of any make,

What's made here..... Dodge, Ford, General Motors, Mazda, Nissan, Honda all make cars in Canada.

I'm not sure such a beast ever existed lol. Canada isn't exactly known for its culinary delights here either, in fact what is canadian food? tinned Salmon?

As a country of immigrants, Canada takes it's food from all over the world. But I have yet to see a chip sandwich or any of the other insults to the palate that are so proudly eaten in britain.

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57even Forum Pro • Posts: 11,185
Re: Sorry Robert....

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Thats all well and good but when I start taking lessons on diplomacy from a German will be the day hell freezes over. You may well be another left wing apologist hell bent on making the British people feel guilty for breathing but we've had enough of that in the last 15 years thanks.

It is obvious that you take your diplomacy lessons from Attila the Hun. If you want something to feel guilty about, feel guilty about your atrocious food, the crap cars and motorcycles you've foisted on the world over the past few decades, and Downton Abbey.

Well Britain isn't really known as an exporter of food, nor motorbikes, nor cars to be honest.

One can go to Britain to sample the food, though I don't know why one would want to. I have owned a few British motorcycles (yes, they do export the things), a BSA and a couple of Triumphs (my Harleys were more reliable, which is saying more bad about the British junk than good about the Hawgs), and I've had friends who have owned various Triumphs, MGs and Jaguars, none of which were any great shakes for staying running.

We don't call Lucas the prince of darkness because the electrics are any good.

Seriously, how long ago do you think Britain stopped making the likes of MG's and Triumphs lol. The cars that British workmen currently make are more likely to be Nissans and they do it very well by all accounts, competitive against the rest of Europe for sure.

Pity they made such crap that they turned off most of the world for a generation.

The only cars and bikes tend to be prestige marques that foreigners seem to like.

See above, and you don't know what you are talking about..

Ditto

I'm not sure which planet you've arrived from but I suspect you're another of the Guardian reading champagne socialists. The BBC makes quite a bit of money from series like Downton Abbey so I think that completes your rather inept attempt at attacking Britain. On a scale 1-10 on gettings things woefully inaccurate I think you just made a 10

You need to pull your head out of your nether region.

I think you've lost the plot. I have to say I'm not sure I've ever seen a Canadian car of any make,

What's made here..... Dodge, Ford, General Motors, Mazda, Nissan, Honda all make cars in Canada.

I'm not sure such a beast ever existed lol. Canada isn't exactly known for its culinary delights here either, in fact what is canadian food? tinned Salmon?

As a country of immigrants, Canada takes it's food from all over the world. But I have yet to see a chip sandwich or any of the other insults to the palate that are so proudly eaten in britain.

When was the last time you came to Britain? Don't know where you ate, but you must have been on a tight budget.

Or bought a Triumph motorcycle? Or a European Honda/Nissan/Toyota (all UK built). Or a UK built Jaguar, Range Rover or Mini. All among the most reliable in class, amazingly, all designed in the UK and built here too, even if the owners are not.

You and Papillon should both stop living in the past.

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Wellington100 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,796
Re: Sorry Robert....

57even wrote:

Wellington100 wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

RobertSigmund wrote:

the CAP

pardon: what is CAP?

is nothing short of a French tax on the rest of the EU and it should go.

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For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

-- hide signature --

Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

Umm, the Germans have been fastidious about honoring agreements and are model citizens with an enviable track record of good economic management, with the one notable exception of the years when Helmut Kohl went over the 3% budget deficit during the unification years with East Germany. In general the Germans have been shocked to discover the extent to which most of the rest of the EU, especially the Mediterranean countries and France and Ireland have not been honoring EU and Euro zone agreements and have been playing fast and loose with the Euro since adopting it. Germans are rightfully outraged.

And therein lies the problem.

The EU only works if everyone abides by the rules. The UK entered late, and not on good terms, but even then the various "balances" such as the CAP were set up to favour some countries over others. We redressed the balance somewhat by negotiating a rebate, but we are still a net contributor, and a large one.

On the whole though, I don't have and issue with that. The benefits outweigh the cost, and the cost in total GDP terms are not that great. Removal of trade barriers reduced overheads for manufacturing industries exporting and importing from the EU, as did common product standards (can you imagine what it was like when EVERY country had it's own type approval laws) and travel across Europe is much easier.

Moreover, most of the companies I work for have branches all over the EU, and I work primarily in mainland Europe. There are many British expats working all over Europe, doing everything from running IT companies to building networks and writing software (while the UK companies are busy outsourcing the work to India).

And all the BS in the Daily Mail about EU regulation was mostly lies. In fact EU regulation in many cases is much simpler and less complex than the contorted UK regulations it replaced (or "enhanced" by the bureaucrats in Whitehall to make it just as bad). And God knows we messed up enough over BSE, foot and mouth and many other issues without any help from Europe.

Even now, much of British manufacturing would struggle if we pulled out of the EU. Not only are many companies working in cooperation with European industries (supplying parts and assemblies for Airbus, VW, Peugeot and many defence contracts) but other far east manufacturers are based in the UK purely because of it's membership.

To pull out of the EU would be a nightmare for all these businesses. You could kiss goodbye to what's left of British manufacturing.

In terms of immigration, EU immigration so far has been a major success on the whole. Most of the East Europeans working here are educated, paying tax, and if they send money home this is a far better way to regenerate Poland or Hungary than bail-outs and grants. You could say the same about the millions of Irish living in the UK, and London is now the 6th largest French city in the world, and none of them are on the dole (they'd get a lot better deal in France).

This outweighs the cost of the "cheats" by an order of magnitude.

Also, many of them return home when they have saved up enough to start a business and save the NHS from having to cope with their old age. Medical care elsewhere in the EU is as least as good as the UKs, and many of them still go home for major operations or dentistry.

Yes, a few screw the system but far more do not.

In fact the worst immigration issue we have regarding benefit and health tourism has nothing to do with the EU. The fact is our immigration laws are a soft touch - we'd do better with Shengen. Our completely messed up immigration policy has NOTHING to do with the EU, it was a self-inflicted nonsense dreamed up by the Labour government and then mishandled to a breath taking extent. So much for sovereignty!

And before you start on the EU human rights bill, it was substantially drafted by the British. Chickens roosting comfortably there, eh.

The real issues with the EU only really started with the Euro. It was poorly implemented, the rules for initial entry were too lax. Countries with a very poor record of balancing budgets were allowed entry and lent money by other EU banks (including ours) and are now defaulting on the payments. To make the Euro work would REQUIRE closer integration. It is a nonsense to have a common currency and no central bank regulator, which the Germans have had to step up to.

But out of the 27 European countries, 10 are not part of the Euro. It won't save our banks (many of which are now owned by the taxpayer) but I can't see a rush by these 10 countries to join any time soon. This would more or less force Brussels to consider a two tier system, one economic but retaining currency, legal and some financial controls, and one fully integrated into the EU banking system and fully regulated. This would actually make economic cooperation across Europe easier and, for those that want it, political integration too.

I don't feel bad about being "second tier", it's in effect the best of all worlds for us, but a wholesale withdrawal from the EU would me a nightmare for everyone except the super-rich, whose investments are all outside the EU (and who are pouring money into UKIP). They are our GOP, the super-rich that have no real interest in anyone else's prosperity, but don't mind resorting to simple minded Jingoistic nonsense to get the public onside to boost their property and offshore investments.

And on the sovereignty issue, it was not the EU that broke UK manufacturing, or turned us into an offshore branch for Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs et al. who don't pay a penny in corporation tax in the UK (they just assign all their losses into the UK arms). We did that entirely by ourselves. Just like we ended up unable to build our own trains, or invest in infrastructure, or retain our energy industry. You can thank Maggie and Tony for that.

So yes, we have immigration and health tourism issues, but entirely unrelated to the EU. Our manufacturing base declined, and our education system, again all self-imposed. Our banks failed, again self-inflicted.

Perhaps it would be better to emulate Germany instead of pointing fingers everywhere except where the blame lies for our own decline, namely us.

There is so much truth in what you are saying its difficult to know where to begin.

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Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

RobertSigmund
OP RobertSigmund Forum Pro • Posts: 10,750
Re: Sorry Robert....

Wellington100 wrote:

57even wrote:

Wellington100 wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

RobertSigmund wrote:

the CAP

pardon: what is CAP?

is nothing short of a French tax on the rest of the EU and it should go.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

-- hide signature --

Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

Umm, the Germans have been fastidious about honoring agreements and are model citizens with an enviable track record of good economic management, with the one notable exception of the years when Helmut Kohl went over the 3% budget deficit during the unification years with East Germany. In general the Germans have been shocked to discover the extent to which most of the rest of the EU, especially the Mediterranean countries and France and Ireland have not been honoring EU and Euro zone agreements and have been playing fast and loose with the Euro since adopting it. Germans are rightfully outraged.

And therein lies the problem.

The EU only works if everyone abides by the rules. The UK entered late, and not on good terms, but even then the various "balances" such as the CAP were set up to favour some countries over others. We redressed the balance somewhat by negotiating a rebate, but we are still a net contributor, and a large one.

On the whole though, I don't have and issue with that. The benefits outweigh the cost, and the cost in total GDP terms are not that great. Removal of trade barriers reduced overheads for manufacturing industries exporting and importing from the EU, as did common product standards (can you imagine what it was like when EVERY country had it's own type approval laws) and travel across Europe is much easier.

Moreover, most of the companies I work for have branches all over the EU, and I work primarily in mainland Europe. There are many British expats working all over Europe, doing everything from running IT companies to building networks and writing software (while the UK companies are busy outsourcing the work to India).

And all the BS in the Daily Mail about EU regulation was mostly lies. In fact EU regulation in many cases is much simpler and less complex than the contorted UK regulations it replaced (or "enhanced" by the bureaucrats in Whitehall to make it just as bad). And God knows we messed up enough over BSE, foot and mouth and many other issues without any help from Europe.

Even now, much of British manufacturing would struggle if we pulled out of the EU. Not only are many companies working in cooperation with European industries (supplying parts and assemblies for Airbus, VW, Peugeot and many defence contracts) but other far east manufacturers are based in the UK purely because of it's membership.

To pull out of the EU would be a nightmare for all these businesses. You could kiss goodbye to what's left of British manufacturing.

In terms of immigration, EU immigration so far has been a major success on the whole. Most of the East Europeans working here are educated, paying tax, and if they send money home this is a far better way to regenerate Poland or Hungary than bail-outs and grants. You could say the same about the millions of Irish living in the UK, and London is now the 6th largest French city in the world, and none of them are on the dole (they'd get a lot better deal in France).

This outweighs the cost of the "cheats" by an order of magnitude.

Also, many of them return home when they have saved up enough to start a business and save the NHS from having to cope with their old age. Medical care elsewhere in the EU is as least as good as the UKs, and many of them still go home for major operations or dentistry.

Yes, a few screw the system but far more do not.

In fact the worst immigration issue we have regarding benefit and health tourism has nothing to do with the EU. The fact is our immigration laws are a soft touch - we'd do better with Shengen. Our completely messed up immigration policy has NOTHING to do with the EU, it was a self-inflicted nonsense dreamed up by the Labour government and then mishandled to a breath taking extent. So much for sovereignty!

And before you start on the EU human rights bill, it was substantially drafted by the British. Chickens roosting comfortably there, eh.

The real issues with the EU only really started with the Euro. It was poorly implemented, the rules for initial entry were too lax. Countries with a very poor record of balancing budgets were allowed entry and lent money by other EU banks (including ours) and are now defaulting on the payments. To make the Euro work would REQUIRE closer integration. It is a nonsense to have a common currency and no central bank regulator, which the Germans have had to step up to.

But out of the 27 European countries, 10 are not part of the Euro. It won't save our banks (many of which are now owned by the taxpayer) but I can't see a rush by these 10 countries to join any time soon. This would more or less force Brussels to consider a two tier system, one economic but retaining currency, legal and some financial controls, and one fully integrated into the EU banking system and fully regulated. This would actually make economic cooperation across Europe easier and, for those that want it, political integration too.

I don't feel bad about being "second tier", it's in effect the best of all worlds for us, but a wholesale withdrawal from the EU would me a nightmare for everyone except the super-rich, whose investments are all outside the EU (and who are pouring money into UKIP). They are our GOP, the super-rich that have no real interest in anyone else's prosperity, but don't mind resorting to simple minded Jingoistic nonsense to get the public onside to boost their property and offshore investments.

And on the sovereignty issue, it was not the EU that broke UK manufacturing, or turned us into an offshore branch for Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs et al. who don't pay a penny in corporation tax in the UK (they just assign all their losses into the UK arms). We did that entirely by ourselves. Just like we ended up unable to build our own trains, or invest in infrastructure, or retain our energy industry. You can thank Maggie and Tony for that.

So yes, we have immigration and health tourism issues, but entirely unrelated to the EU. Our manufacturing base declined, and our education system, again all self-imposed. Our banks failed, again self-inflicted.

Perhaps it would be better to emulate Germany instead of pointing fingers everywhere except where the blame lies for our own decline, namely us.

There is so much truth in what you are saying its difficult to know where to begin.

-- hide signature --

Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

Papillon and the likes of him do not have an EU problem. They have a psychological problem. Things would not get better for the UK if it left the EU. British politicians who make the EU responsible for domestic problems in order to detract from their own mistakes play with fire.

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57even Forum Pro • Posts: 11,185
Re: Sorry Robert....

RobertSigmund wrote:

Wellington100 wrote:

57even wrote:

Wellington100 wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

RobertSigmund wrote:

the CAP

pardon: what is CAP?

is nothing short of a French tax on the rest of the EU and it should go.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

-- hide signature --

Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

-- hide signature --

For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

Umm, the Germans have been fastidious about honoring agreements and are model citizens with an enviable track record of good economic management, with the one notable exception of the years when Helmut Kohl went over the 3% budget deficit during the unification years with East Germany. In general the Germans have been shocked to discover the extent to which most of the rest of the EU, especially the Mediterranean countries and France and Ireland have not been honoring EU and Euro zone agreements and have been playing fast and loose with the Euro since adopting it. Germans are rightfully outraged.

And therein lies the problem.

The EU only works if everyone abides by the rules. The UK entered late, and not on good terms, but even then the various "balances" such as the CAP were set up to favour some countries over others. We redressed the balance somewhat by negotiating a rebate, but we are still a net contributor, and a large one.

On the whole though, I don't have and issue with that. The benefits outweigh the cost, and the cost in total GDP terms are not that great. Removal of trade barriers reduced overheads for manufacturing industries exporting and importing from the EU, as did common product standards (can you imagine what it was like when EVERY country had it's own type approval laws) and travel across Europe is much easier.

Moreover, most of the companies I work for have branches all over the EU, and I work primarily in mainland Europe. There are many British expats working all over Europe, doing everything from running IT companies to building networks and writing software (while the UK companies are busy outsourcing the work to India).

And all the BS in the Daily Mail about EU regulation was mostly lies. In fact EU regulation in many cases is much simpler and less complex than the contorted UK regulations it replaced (or "enhanced" by the bureaucrats in Whitehall to make it just as bad). And God knows we messed up enough over BSE, foot and mouth and many other issues without any help from Europe.

Even now, much of British manufacturing would struggle if we pulled out of the EU. Not only are many companies working in cooperation with European industries (supplying parts and assemblies for Airbus, VW, Peugeot and many defence contracts) but other far east manufacturers are based in the UK purely because of it's membership.

To pull out of the EU would be a nightmare for all these businesses. You could kiss goodbye to what's left of British manufacturing.

In terms of immigration, EU immigration so far has been a major success on the whole. Most of the East Europeans working here are educated, paying tax, and if they send money home this is a far better way to regenerate Poland or Hungary than bail-outs and grants. You could say the same about the millions of Irish living in the UK, and London is now the 6th largest French city in the world, and none of them are on the dole (they'd get a lot better deal in France).

This outweighs the cost of the "cheats" by an order of magnitude.

Also, many of them return home when they have saved up enough to start a business and save the NHS from having to cope with their old age. Medical care elsewhere in the EU is as least as good as the UKs, and many of them still go home for major operations or dentistry.

Yes, a few screw the system but far more do not.

In fact the worst immigration issue we have regarding benefit and health tourism has nothing to do with the EU. The fact is our immigration laws are a soft touch - we'd do better with Shengen. Our completely messed up immigration policy has NOTHING to do with the EU, it was a self-inflicted nonsense dreamed up by the Labour government and then mishandled to a breath taking extent. So much for sovereignty!

And before you start on the EU human rights bill, it was substantially drafted by the British. Chickens roosting comfortably there, eh.

The real issues with the EU only really started with the Euro. It was poorly implemented, the rules for initial entry were too lax. Countries with a very poor record of balancing budgets were allowed entry and lent money by other EU banks (including ours) and are now defaulting on the payments. To make the Euro work would REQUIRE closer integration. It is a nonsense to have a common currency and no central bank regulator, which the Germans have had to step up to.

But out of the 27 European countries, 10 are not part of the Euro. It won't save our banks (many of which are now owned by the taxpayer) but I can't see a rush by these 10 countries to join any time soon. This would more or less force Brussels to consider a two tier system, one economic but retaining currency, legal and some financial controls, and one fully integrated into the EU banking system and fully regulated. This would actually make economic cooperation across Europe easier and, for those that want it, political integration too.

I don't feel bad about being "second tier", it's in effect the best of all worlds for us, but a wholesale withdrawal from the EU would me a nightmare for everyone except the super-rich, whose investments are all outside the EU (and who are pouring money into UKIP). They are our GOP, the super-rich that have no real interest in anyone else's prosperity, but don't mind resorting to simple minded Jingoistic nonsense to get the public onside to boost their property and offshore investments.

And on the sovereignty issue, it was not the EU that broke UK manufacturing, or turned us into an offshore branch for Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs et al. who don't pay a penny in corporation tax in the UK (they just assign all their losses into the UK arms). We did that entirely by ourselves. Just like we ended up unable to build our own trains, or invest in infrastructure, or retain our energy industry. You can thank Maggie and Tony for that.

So yes, we have immigration and health tourism issues, but entirely unrelated to the EU. Our manufacturing base declined, and our education system, again all self-imposed. Our banks failed, again self-inflicted.

Perhaps it would be better to emulate Germany instead of pointing fingers everywhere except where the blame lies for our own decline, namely us.

There is so much truth in what you are saying its difficult to know where to begin.

-- hide signature --

Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

Papillon and the likes of him do not have an EU problem. They have a psychological problem. Things would not get better for the UK if it left the EU. British politicians who make the EU responsible for domestic problems in order to detract from their own mistakes play with fire.

Yep, blame ducking has become an epidemic, as have historical revisionism and political correctness. While the right pumps national pride, the left  believes it should engage in moral self-flagellation. Both are selecting their own half-view of history, out of context and devoid of important detail. Neither view would stand up in court, but both have masterminded the decline of British industry without any help from the EU.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle, but political correctness in the UK has become a form of Stalinism, perpetrated by a well meaning but patronising elite and publicised by film makers and pop  singers. It's a lovely utopian view of the basic goodness of humanity that is somewhat at odds with reality, but to disagree is to be branded.

The backlash, understandably, has become the rise of the indignant white middle class, tired of being written off as racist and sexist but bearing the brunt of the welfare state for the least return. Suppression of debate merely turns reasonable objections into unreasonable ones. For that reason I can't entirely blame Papillon. His revision of history, equally convenient and equally incorrect, is simply the mirror image of the same nonsense perpetrated by 14 years of patronising  moral browbeating by the left. Both sides give me a massive headache and are quite frankly full of excrement and guilty of moral cowardice on a huge scale (while lining their pockets).

14 years of PC spin doctoring has left the population dumber and more divided than ever. Proof, if ever it were needed, that we cannot always rely on our own "sovereign government" to do the right thing. They are mostly too dumb and scared and just want to be in power for the fringe benefits. Really need to grow some b*lls IMO and not leave the unpleasant debate to idiots like Farrage.

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RobertSigmund
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Re: Sorry Robert....

57even wrote:

RobertSigmund wrote:

Wellington100 wrote:

57even wrote:

Wellington100 wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

RobertSigmund wrote:

the CAP

pardon: what is CAP?

is nothing short of a French tax on the rest of the EU and it should go.

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but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

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Umm, the Germans have been fastidious about honoring agreements and are model citizens with an enviable track record of good economic management, with the one notable exception of the years when Helmut Kohl went over the 3% budget deficit during the unification years with East Germany. In general the Germans have been shocked to discover the extent to which most of the rest of the EU, especially the Mediterranean countries and France and Ireland have not been honoring EU and Euro zone agreements and have been playing fast and loose with the Euro since adopting it. Germans are rightfully outraged.

And therein lies the problem.

The EU only works if everyone abides by the rules. The UK entered late, and not on good terms, but even then the various "balances" such as the CAP were set up to favour some countries over others. We redressed the balance somewhat by negotiating a rebate, but we are still a net contributor, and a large one.

On the whole though, I don't have and issue with that. The benefits outweigh the cost, and the cost in total GDP terms are not that great. Removal of trade barriers reduced overheads for manufacturing industries exporting and importing from the EU, as did common product standards (can you imagine what it was like when EVERY country had it's own type approval laws) and travel across Europe is much easier.

Moreover, most of the companies I work for have branches all over the EU, and I work primarily in mainland Europe. There are many British expats working all over Europe, doing everything from running IT companies to building networks and writing software (while the UK companies are busy outsourcing the work to India).

And all the BS in the Daily Mail about EU regulation was mostly lies. In fact EU regulation in many cases is much simpler and less complex than the contorted UK regulations it replaced (or "enhanced" by the bureaucrats in Whitehall to make it just as bad). And God knows we messed up enough over BSE, foot and mouth and many other issues without any help from Europe.

Even now, much of British manufacturing would struggle if we pulled out of the EU. Not only are many companies working in cooperation with European industries (supplying parts and assemblies for Airbus, VW, Peugeot and many defence contracts) but other far east manufacturers are based in the UK purely because of it's membership.

To pull out of the EU would be a nightmare for all these businesses. You could kiss goodbye to what's left of British manufacturing.

In terms of immigration, EU immigration so far has been a major success on the whole. Most of the East Europeans working here are educated, paying tax, and if they send money home this is a far better way to regenerate Poland or Hungary than bail-outs and grants. You could say the same about the millions of Irish living in the UK, and London is now the 6th largest French city in the world, and none of them are on the dole (they'd get a lot better deal in France).

This outweighs the cost of the "cheats" by an order of magnitude.

Also, many of them return home when they have saved up enough to start a business and save the NHS from having to cope with their old age. Medical care elsewhere in the EU is as least as good as the UKs, and many of them still go home for major operations or dentistry.

Yes, a few screw the system but far more do not.

In fact the worst immigration issue we have regarding benefit and health tourism has nothing to do with the EU. The fact is our immigration laws are a soft touch - we'd do better with Shengen. Our completely messed up immigration policy has NOTHING to do with the EU, it was a self-inflicted nonsense dreamed up by the Labour government and then mishandled to a breath taking extent. So much for sovereignty!

And before you start on the EU human rights bill, it was substantially drafted by the British. Chickens roosting comfortably there, eh.

The real issues with the EU only really started with the Euro. It was poorly implemented, the rules for initial entry were too lax. Countries with a very poor record of balancing budgets were allowed entry and lent money by other EU banks (including ours) and are now defaulting on the payments. To make the Euro work would REQUIRE closer integration. It is a nonsense to have a common currency and no central bank regulator, which the Germans have had to step up to.

But out of the 27 European countries, 10 are not part of the Euro. It won't save our banks (many of which are now owned by the taxpayer) but I can't see a rush by these 10 countries to join any time soon. This would more or less force Brussels to consider a two tier system, one economic but retaining currency, legal and some financial controls, and one fully integrated into the EU banking system and fully regulated. This would actually make economic cooperation across Europe easier and, for those that want it, political integration too.

I don't feel bad about being "second tier", it's in effect the best of all worlds for us, but a wholesale withdrawal from the EU would me a nightmare for everyone except the super-rich, whose investments are all outside the EU (and who are pouring money into UKIP). They are our GOP, the super-rich that have no real interest in anyone else's prosperity, but don't mind resorting to simple minded Jingoistic nonsense to get the public onside to boost their property and offshore investments.

And on the sovereignty issue, it was not the EU that broke UK manufacturing, or turned us into an offshore branch for Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs et al. who don't pay a penny in corporation tax in the UK (they just assign all their losses into the UK arms). We did that entirely by ourselves. Just like we ended up unable to build our own trains, or invest in infrastructure, or retain our energy industry. You can thank Maggie and Tony for that.

So yes, we have immigration and health tourism issues, but entirely unrelated to the EU. Our manufacturing base declined, and our education system, again all self-imposed. Our banks failed, again self-inflicted.

Perhaps it would be better to emulate Germany instead of pointing fingers everywhere except where the blame lies for our own decline, namely us.

There is so much truth in what you are saying its difficult to know where to begin.

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Papillon and the likes of him do not have an EU problem. They have a psychological problem. Things would not get better for the UK if it left the EU. British politicians who make the EU responsible for domestic problems in order to detract from their own mistakes play with fire.

Yep, blame ducking has become an epidemic, as have historical revisionism and political correctness. While the right pumps national pride, the left  believes it should engage in moral self-flagellation. Both are selecting their own half-view of history, out of context and devoid of important detail. Neither view would stand up in court, but both have masterminded the decline of British industry without any help from the EU.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle, but political correctness in the UK has become a form of Stalinism, perpetrated by a well meaning but patronising elite and publicised by film makers and pop  singers. It's a lovely utopian view of the basic goodness of humanity that is somewhat at odds with reality, but to disagree is to be branded.

The backlash, understandably, has become the rise of the indignant white middle class, tired of being written off as racist and sexist but bearing the brunt of the welfare state for the least return. Suppression of debate merely turns reasonable objections into unreasonable ones. For that reason I can't entirely blame Papillon. His revision of history, equally convenient and equally incorrect, is simply the mirror image of the same nonsense perpetrated by 14 years of patronising  moral browbeating by the left. Both sides give me a massive headache and are quite frankly full of excrement and guilty of moral cowardice on a huge scale (while lining their pockets).

14 years of PC spin doctoring has left the population dumber and more divided than ever. Proof, if ever it were needed, that we cannot always rely on our own "sovereign government" to do the right thing. They are mostly too dumb and scared and just want to be in power for the fringe benefits. Really need to grow some b*lls IMO and not leave the unpleasant debate to idiots like Farrage.

I also hate PC. It is in the process of destroying our beautiful German language, as, in order to avoid sexual discrimination, you must either find a neutral form or write he/she etc. I know the problem exists in English as well, but for German, it is much worse.

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Rriley
Rriley Forum Pro • Posts: 21,846
Re: Sorry Robert....

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

complete nonsense

This is a legacy of Hitlers Nazis who made these claims to the German people. The facts are much of the territory Germany lost did so via plebiscite, though some are just signs of land grab by the victors, much of it made sense in respect of tidying up borders or limiting Germany's capacity to organize further fight.

The treaty involved 3 major functions
Adjustments to Borders and Territory.
Military Rearmament Restrictions
Reparations

Germany's real objections where the limits on rearmament, which Hitler objected were unfair because Britain and France didnt have to do the same, ..... duh. Hitler made sure these limitations were routinely ignored, Germany was doing that anyway from 1919 on. Germany systematically planned its military build up for WW2 over decades

Despite Germany's miserable state of finances, reparations, while they certainly didnt help, much of Germany's problems were due to the depression, and the fact they lost the war. Reparations were largely unpaid anyway.

All of the same things occurred after the Second World War. Germany's territories were dismantled and parts taken by neighbor states, Germany has had to pay reparations across a plethora of requirements, and there were severe restrictions on the military and its size. None of these things created WW3, nor contributed to a rise of Nationalism via a Nationalist Socialist Political bent.

Germany raising of the Second World War took the lives of some 60 million people, and the horrors they brought to Europe are legend. Germany and the German people took their idea of European governance to the world twice and lost in the biggest possible way, they have nobody to blame but themselves, .......entirely.

Personally when an army starts goosestepping down the road to again conquer Europe or starts stacking people into ovens, they lost every right to complain about what happens next.

Humiliation over a railway carriage be damned.

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RobertSigmund
OP RobertSigmund Forum Pro • Posts: 10,750
Re: Sorry Robert....

Rriley wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

complete nonsense

This is a legacy of Hitlers Nazis who made these claims to the German people. The facts are much of the territory Germany lost did so via plebiscite, though some are just signs of land grab by the victors, much of it made sense in respect of tidying up borders or limiting Germany's capacity to organize further fight.

The treaty involved 3 major functions
Adjustments to Borders and Territory.
Military Rearmament Restrictions
Reparations

Germany's real objections where the limits on rearmament, which Hitler objected were unfair because Britain and France didnt have to do the same, ..... duh. Hitler made sure these limitations were routinely ignored, Germany was doing that anyway from 1919 on.

Despite Germany's miserable state of finances, reparations, while they certainly didnt help, much of Germany's problems were due to the depression, and the fact they lost the war. Reparations were largely unpaid anyway.

All of the same things occurred after the Second World War. Germany's territories were dismantled and parts taken by neighbor states, Germany has had to pay reparations across a plethora of requirements, and there were severe restrictions on the military and its size. None of these things created WW3, nor contributed to a rise of Nationalism via a Nationalist Socialist Political bent.

Germany raising of the Second World War took the lives of some 60 million people, and the horrors they brought to Europe are legend. Germany and the German people, took their idea of European governance to the world twice, and lost in the biggest possible way, they have nobody to blame but themselves, entirely.

Personally when an army starts goosestepping down the road to again conquer Europe, or starts stacking people into ovens, they lost every right to complain about what happens next.

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Harken, the history expert  is speaking.

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NuFonaut Senior Member • Posts: 2,211
Re: Sorry Robert....

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

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Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

So what your saying is we should have patted the Germans on the back and just told them to "run along like good chaps" after millions of our men had just been killed and wounded over 4 years trying stop German Imperialism? Presumably by your logic the Jews were responsible for their own concentration camps as well.

You are assigning blame for a couple of world wars. I'm just clarifying where that blame actually lies. WWII was avoidable, and probably wouldn't have happened had the Treaty of Versailles not been so small minded and onerous. Unfortunately, after WWI, Britain and France were hell bent on revenge (good diplomacy there), and decided to extract it any way they could. WWII was the result. You have no one to blame but yourselves for both world wars. After all, it takes two to tango.

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Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

In case it escaped your notice, economic conditions for everyone were not great in the 30's and no-one was able to predict that. As for "revenge", when you've just lost lost the best part of a generation of your men over a needless war then yes, you do tend to get a bit pi$$ed about that, who'd have thought it? If you had any conceivable idea about the sacrifice that British men made during that conflict then you might have some idea of why things unfolded as they did. If you should ever visit these shores, feel free to visit any City, town or village and look for the war memorials, you'll always find them, with a long list of the fallen, they're hard to miss because they are everywhere. People like you make me sick, spineless individuals who are the first to complain but the last to do anything about anything.

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Revenge phantasies by soldiers might be understandable. revenge phantasies by far removed leader less so. Leaders are expecte to make smart decisions based on numerous factors. Revenge is not smart. It looks like you take the position of the soldier even though you did not fight in WW1. I take it you don´t want to be a leader.

Nationalism is not smart either.

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57even Forum Pro • Posts: 11,185
Re: Sorry Robert....

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. It was the treaties signed by various inbred royals (including the English ones) that made WWI a reality. WWII was bound to happen as soon as the treaty of Versailles was forced upon Germany by, well, that was Britain and France, wasn't it?

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

So what your saying is we should have patted the Germans on the back and just told them to "run along like good chaps" after millions of our men had just been killed and wounded over 4 years trying stop German Imperialism? Presumably by your logic the Jews were responsible for their own concentration camps as well.

You are assigning blame for a couple of world wars. I'm just clarifying where that blame actually lies. WWII was avoidable, and probably wouldn't have happened had the Treaty of Versailles not been so small minded and onerous. Unfortunately, after WWI, Britain and France were hell bent on revenge (good diplomacy there), and decided to extract it any way they could. WWII was the result. You have no one to blame but yourselves for both world wars. After all, it takes two to tango.

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

In case it escaped your notice, economic conditions for everyone were not great in the 30's and no-one was able to predict that. As for "revenge", when you've just lost lost the best part of a generation of your men over a needless war then yes, you do tend to get a bit pi$$ed about that, who'd have thought it? If you had any conceivable idea about the sacrifice that British men made during that conflict then you might have some idea of why things unfolded as they did. If you should ever visit these shores, feel free to visit any City, town or village and look for the war memorials, you'll always find them, with a long list of the fallen, they're hard to miss because they are everywhere. People like you make me sick, spineless individuals who are the first to complain but the last to do anything about anything.

You just don't get it do you? WWI was as much the fault of Britain as it was of Germany. Are you really so bloody thick that you are posting crap here and don't know what treaties were in place in Europe in the early part of the last century? WWII could have been avoided except for the onerous Treaty of Versailles, which was the brainchild of the British and French.

And which left Germany completely defenceless to protect their annexed territories in Prussia, the Rhineland and Sudenland, and unable to face the real threat of Russian expansionism (and internal communist campaigning). This, and the massive economic burden imposed on them, made the fall of the Weimar inevitable.

Learn your history before you come here making a joke of your own intelligence.

BTW, if I want to see war memorials, I just have to go to a few places in my own city. I can even find the names of my own family members inscribed on them. Four out of five of the young men on my fathers side of the family went to fight in your stupid world war 2 (apparently for no reason, if morons like you were the result of saving your stupid British asses), two came home. Don't talk to me about sacrifice, you pile of excrement.

Well said. Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and British Asians were in every theatre in the war. The most decorated regiment in North Africa was Sikh.

As for retribution for WW2, we killed more German civilians alone by bombing than our entire WW2 losses (military and civilian). The Russians accounted for another 2 million (many dying in Siberian prisons as late as 1958). The country ended up ruined, flattened and minus many of it's youngest and most productive generation.

It had to be done, but the price was paid and war reparations have been paid since. The main perpetrators were rounded up and tried and many of the rest tracked down by Israelis. To exact a greater retribution seems meaningless.

The worst things I could accuse Germans of these days are overengineering and detail obsessiveness, but you can't argue with their cars...

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