Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43

Started Mar 19, 2013 | Discussions
Wallybipster Senior Member • Posts: 1,521
The future that never seems to come

ProPhotoDude wrote:

The future seems to be Full Frame sensors in all kind of bodies, from standard DSLRs, to compacts such as Sony RX1 and to mirrorless being planned by Panasonic and also perhaps Sony.

I'm not sure why there is such a cult for the FF sensor, but I've heard stuff like this intermittently for years, and I'll believe it when I see it.  The day they make a FF OM-D replacement that is the same size, with all the same features with a FF sensor is the day I will even start to care about this sort of rumor.

Considering how expensive the RX1 is for what it does, it's hard to imagine this sort of camera being nothing more than another overpriced niche product for the FF cultists, with a new set of non-existent lenses to design.

Just my 2 cents,

Wally

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RickPick
RickPick Senior Member • Posts: 1,327
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43
1

ProPhotoDude wrote:

They have to follow market direction, the only format that seems to be eternal is 35mm. it's used in film industry too and now the digital video camera are using 35mm sensors.

35mm film is used in the film industry but the actual imaging area is much smaller than the full frame size, depending on the aspect ratio. For example the standard 1.85:1 ratio has a width of 21.95mm for the image after allowing for the film sprockets and soundtracks, giving a height of about 11.86 mm.

By contrast, a full frame still camera sensor is about 36 x 24mm in size. So the four thirds 21.6 x 17.3 (reduced to about 12.15 for the 16:9 ratio) is closer to standard cinema film than "full frame" is.

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Just Having Fun Veteran Member • Posts: 3,869
Highly doubtful. FF will alway be a niche
5

Various site have reported that sensor cost go up exponentially with size.

Small size sensors are getting better and are hitting the point of "good enough" (ala, mp3s worse than CDs, etc.)

FF mirrorless is like SACD, Blu-ray, 3D TV and 4K TVs. CE companies are always looking for ways to raise prices and increase revenue, but then companies like Apple, Netflix, Amazon, etc. come along and kick their butts selling mp3 players, smartphones and downloadable content that have less quality, but are much cheaper.  Notice how Sony and Panasonic are losing billions and are out of touch?

The Sony FF mirrorless camera is rumored to be up to $4000. You can get a PM2 for $199, and even more people will use their iPhone instead.

Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,983
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43

There is a rumor going around that in a Panasonic long term planning meeting they announced that M43 is ultimately transitional product and the next big thing for them is to offer the "CFF" or Compact Full Frame mirrorless cameras.

There is a rumour going around that Canon is getting so worried about mirrorless sales encroaching their traditional markets as to be employing sock puppets to spread fear and uncertainty about their competitor's products.

Pls don't ask me for my source and I am sure everyone at Pana will deny this, as it will affect the sale of the current M43 cameras. This is just a rumor, but makes real sense to me.

Please don't ask me for my source and I am sure everyone ad Canon will deny this, as it will affect the sale of current Canon cameras.   This is just a rumor, but it makes real sense to me.

rpm40
rpm40 Senior Member • Posts: 2,407
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43
2

35 seems to be the eternal format.

35 is the standard in both photography and also cinema. Both formats are now attempting to recreate 35 in the digital form as well. With photography being ahead of film for a while now.

keep in mind every time we look at a lens, we'd have to say what the lens mm is in 35 format. for example this is 20mm in MFT but really 40mm in 35mm.

35mm is THE format.

Trevor Carpenter wrote:

A couple of questions

As full frame is a term based upon 35mm cameras does that mean that 35mm was the perfect media. What would full frame be if there had never been 35mm?

If you could achieve the same, results, (which to most people they can), with a smaller ergonomically friendly body would you really want a big weighty camera.

I've just spent 5 days on the tourist trail in Berlin with my G5 and it was a joy to have with me.I probably will never want anything larger.(I don't particularly want anything smaller either).

35 MM is a MYTH. It is no more the ideal size than m4/3, medium format, 1", or any other sensor size. It is not THE format based on merit of any kind- it is merely the de facto format, clung to by brands like Canon and Nikon who benefit most from clinging to the past- if nothing changes, their leadership in the camera industry remains unchanged. For those brands, old is good, and 35mm is old.

Right now, 35mm does have technical advantages over m4/3, but sensor tech will inevitably improve, and those advantages will matter less and less. Ultimately, the only difference that may remain constant is DOF. Some prefer the thin DOF offered by full frame, but others actually prefer wider DOF, and for them, m4/3 will always be better in that respect.

As time marches on and sensor tech advances, it is the SMALLER format that will become more accepted as being good enough by a wider range of users, not the larger. At one point, 35mm WAS the smaller format. Now, we have progressed. 35 mm is the older, larger format. So where do we stand?

Watch out, old schoolers- m4/3, 1", and other micro formats are the new kids on the block, and they mean business!

John Buechler Regular Member • Posts: 130
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43
2

I remember years ago when I decided to buy my first " pro " camera, a Nikon F2. The big choice at that time for me was 35 mm or medium format. I chose 35 mm because it had the quality that I needed and was lighter and less expensive. This time I chose M4/3. Time marches on. John

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Martin.au
Martin.au Forum Pro • Posts: 13,230
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43

35 seems to be the eternal format.

35 is the standard in both photography and also cinema. Both formats are now attempting to recreate 35 in the digital form as well. With photography being ahead of film for a while now.

keep in mind every time we look at a lens, we'd have to say what the lens mm is in 35 format. for example this is 20mm in MFT but really 40mm in 35mm.

35mm is THE format.

Trevor Carpenter wrote:

A couple of questions

As full frame is a term based upon 35mm cameras does that mean that 35mm was the perfect media. What would full frame be if there had never been 35mm?

If you could achieve the same, results, (which to most people they can), with a smaller ergonomically friendly body would you really want a big weighty camera.

I've just spent 5 days on the tourist trail in Berlin with my G5 and it was a joy to have with me.I probably will never want anything larger.(I don't particularly want anything smaller either).

Is that like Microsoft Windows is the standard? Oh wait...

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Chez Wimpy
Chez Wimpy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,992
All from a humble film spool 35mm in height

35 seems to be the eternal format.

35 is the standard in both photography and also cinema.

So "35" is both 36x24 and 16x22 or 18.6x21.95 or 18.66x24.89.  Aspect ratio is 3:2 and 4:3 or 1.85:1 or 2.39:1 or 16:9, ect.  Lenses are rectilinear with backfocus ranging from 27.8 to 52mm... and anamorphic.

You are suggesting that Panasonic is going to build a larger camera + mount from the ground up and picking one of these "35"s is the obvious choice?  What about 40x30mm?  50x40mm?  60x70mm?  That would at least give them a niche.  Or are they so reliant on Sony now that they can only source cast off DSLR 36x24mm sensors for a camera system that has zero legacy optics (or users) to worry about?

-- hide signature --

-CW

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gskolenda
gskolenda Senior Member • Posts: 1,143
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43

35 seems to be the eternal format.

35 is the standard in both photography and also cinema. Both formats are now attempting to recreate 35 in the digital form as well. With photography being ahead of film for a while now.

keep in mind every time we look at a lens, we'd have to say what the lens mm is in 35 format. for example this is 20mm in MFT but really 40mm in 35mm.

35mm is THE format.

Trevor Carpenter wrote:

A couple of questions

As full frame is a term based upon 35mm cameras does that mean that 35mm was the perfect media. What would full frame be if there had never been 35mm?

If you could achieve the same, results, (which to most people they can), with a smaller ergonomically friendly body would you really want a big weighty camera.

I've just spent 5 days on the tourist trail in Berlin with my G5 and it was a joy to have with me.I probably will never want anything larger.(I don't particularly want anything smaller either).

35 MM is a MYTH. It is no more the ideal size than m4/3, medium format, 1", or any other sensor size. It is not THE format based on merit of any kind- it is merely the de facto format, clung to by brands like Canon and Nikon who benefit most from clinging to the past- if nothing changes, their leadership in the camera industry remains unchanged. For those brands, old is good, and 35mm is old.

Right now, 35mm does have technical advantages over m4/3, but sensor tech will inevitably improve, and those advantages will matter less and less. Ultimately, the only difference that may remain constant is DOF. Some prefer the thin DOF offered by full frame, but others actually prefer wider DOF, and for them, m4/3 will always be better in that respect.

As time marches on and sensor tech advances, it is the SMALLER format that will become more accepted as being good enough by a wider range of users, not the larger. At one point, 35mm WAS the smaller format. Now, we have progressed. 35 mm is the older, larger format. So where do we stand?

Watch out, old schoolers- m4/3, 1", and other micro formats are the new kids on the block, and they mean business!

Well said and you are right on! The big boys better be careful.

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Chris Tofalos
Chris Tofalos Contributing Member • Posts: 655
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43

Well, a lot's been said on this subject which is, at the end of the day, a completely unsubstantiated rumour.

Perhaps Panasonic will one day produce a FF compact. There are clearly people out there who will buy the latest thing regardless of its actual usefulness. Fuji seem to be producing rangefinder style cameras like there's no tomorrow and some people rave about them as the next great thing as each one appears. A few months down the line and practical testing reveals all sorts of problems like white 'halo' artefacts, etc.

M4/3 has made significant inroads into serious camera sales. It's prompted both Canon & Nikon into producing rival models, although all these have been down-specced so as not to offer too much competition to the bread and butter DSLRs (FF or otherwise). And a far more reliable rumour claims one of Canon next offerings will be the EOS B, a 'miniaturised' DSLR. I wonder why?

IMHO, I think Panasonic & Olympus have created a winning format. When sensors get better (as in better DR) there will come a point when image quality exceeds what can actually be reproduced, certainly in print. And I have no doubt that one day we will see CDAF blow PDAF out of the water; it's certainly more accurate.

For my purposes, as a professional user, the reduction in weight is an absolute joy. I see differential focussing as the only advantage FF has and that's possibly why Canon are all so fired up about FF. But that advantage will disappear (or be greatly reduced) as faster M4/3 lenses appear (which I'm sure they will). And not much has been said about the other side of the coin: The advantage of greater depth of field which smaller sensors have, which must please landscape photographers, if nobody else.

I can see nothing but a rosy future for M4/3 and I can see plenty of reasons why the 'big guns' would want to destabilise matters with baseless rumours...

forpetessake
forpetessake Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43
1

The future seems to be Full Frame sensors in all kind of bodies, from standard DSLRs, to compacts such as Sony RX1 and to mirrorless being planned by Panasonic and also perhaps Sony.

Canon's Masaya let the cat out of the bag when he said that semi-pros will go FF in near future.
"There will be a Canon EOS 70D, but the future of semi-pro DSLRs is probably full-frame, says Masaya Maeda" http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda

There is a rumor going around that in a Panasonic long term planning meeting they announced that M43 is ultimately transitional product and the next big thing for them is to offer the "CFF" or Compact Full Frame mirrorless cameras.

The plan is to offer FF in as small and light bodies as possible and to develop brand new FF lenses to also be as light and compact as possible.

Just a few years ago, if you wanted FF, you had to spend 7000+. Now you can get them for just about 2000. Next they'll be offered at the $1500 price point.

Since in the short few years Canon and Nikon will offer $1500 FFs, this would create even a larger gap that currently exists between M43 sensors and the APS-C. Keep in mind that M43 started when FFs were still out of the reach of most people.

Pls don't ask me for my source and I am sure everyone at Pana will deny this, as it will affect the sale of the current M43 cameras. This is just a rumor, but makes real sense to me.

Makes a lot of sense really. That was my feeling for a few months that Panasonic would bail out. Not only because the move to FF compact mirrorless is inevitable, but also because in m4/3 playing field Panasonic was a failure, losing to Olympus badly. God forbid, some Chinese company enters m4/3 with cheap offerings and Panasonic will be completely done away with. So they lost m4/3 battles, but unlike Olympus they haven't been deeply invested in the system, so they will cut the losses short and will jump into FF, where the battle only starts. The next five years will be fantastic, all major manufacturers will be fiercely fighting for domination in the FF mirrorless market. That will bring new designs and lower prices. I predict within 5 years FF mirrorless bodies for under $1G (discarding inflation).

forpetessake
forpetessake Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
Re: Why would Full frame Mirrorless affect M4/3?

Lenses would still be big right???

Nope, it's a common misconception. Compare, for instance, 35-100/2 on 4/3 and the 70-200/4L IS on 35mm FF. The size of most lenses is determined by the amount of light they need to collect, the same amount light - the same size of the lenses, no matter what the sensor size is: http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#2

It's reasonable to expect smaller lenses with slower apertures will be developed for compact FF mirrorless cameras. The bodies don't need to be large or heavy. The rumored FF Sony NEX-9 is expected to be the same size as current NEX-7, which is smaller than many m4/3. They surely can make it even smaller, but ergonomically even today's cameras are already too small to be comfortable.

Seems like 2 diffferent markets.

Not really, the same enthusiast market, and as costs are going down the sensor sizes are going up. And FF is not the end of this process. We'll likely see bigger than FF sensors making inroads into this market within the next 10 years.

MatsP
MatsP Senior Member • Posts: 2,472
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43

The future seems to be Full Frame sensors in all kind of bodies, from standard DSLRs, to compacts such as Sony RX1 and to mirrorless being planned by Panasonic and also perhaps Sony.

Canon's Masaya let the cat out of the bag when he said that semi-pros will go FF in near future.
"There will be a Canon EOS 70D, but the future of semi-pro DSLRs is probably full-frame, says Masaya Maeda" http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda

There is a rumor going around that in a Panasonic long term planning meeting they announced that M43 is ultimately transitional product and the next big thing for them is to offer the "CFF" or Compact Full Frame mirrorless cameras.

The plan is to offer FF in as small and light bodies as possible and to develop brand new FF lenses to also be as light and compact as possible.

Just a few years ago, if you wanted FF, you had to spend 7000+. Now you can get them for just about 2000. Next they'll be offered at the $1500 price point.

Since in the short few years Canon and Nikon will offer $1500 FFs, this would create even a larger gap that currently exists between M43 sensors and the APS-C. Keep in mind that M43 started when FFs were still out of the reach of most people.

Pls don't ask me for my source and I am sure everyone at Pana will deny this, as it will affect the sale of the current M43 cameras. This is just a rumor, but makes real sense to me.

Makes a lot of sense really. That was my feeling for a few months that Panasonic would bail out. Not only because the move to FF compact mirrorless is inevitable, but also because in m4/3 playing field Panasonic was a failure, losing to Olympus badly. God forbid, some Chinese company enters m4/3 with cheap offerings and Panasonic will be completely done away with. So they lost m4/3 battles, but unlike Olympus they haven't been deeply invested in the system, so they will cut the losses short and will jump into FF, where the battle only starts. The next five years will be fantastic, all major manufacturers will be fiercely fighting for domination in the FF mirrorless market. That will bring new designs and lower prices. I predict within 5 years FF mirrorless bodies for under $1G (discarding inflation).

I agree. I'm sure we will see a lot of attempts to create a mirrorless FF market quite soon. But I'm not sure that it will kill m4/3. But what will happen to APS-C?

If Canon and Nikon decide to create mirrorless FF consumer cameras they probably will give up the APS-C format. The question is what Samsung, Fuji and others who are deep into APS-C will do. Sony has already started the journey into FF mirrorless with the RX1 and nest step is probably a FF NEX. I wouldn't be surprised if APS-C fades away. Lenses and bodies for APS-C dslr are as big as many FF dslrs. If there are consumer-oriented mirrorless FF cameras with same size and weight as an entry-level dslr why shouldn't one choose one of these?

Ok, lens size can be an argument against it. FF lenses are big, APS-C kit lenses can be quite small, but the better ones are as big as FF lenses. With IS is in the body they could be made smaller, but Canon and Nikon will hardly go that way I guess, they seem to be committed to in-lens IS. A short register distance to the sensor makes the lenses shorter anyway, if not thinner.

Why will m43 survive? If APS-C is abandoned by the great marks m43 will be the serious smaller alternative to FF. Size still matters, and to many photgraphers that don't listen to the FF sirens seductive temptations and regard the m43 IQ as fully sufficient, m43 will still be an ideal match of size and quality.

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forpetessake
forpetessake Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43
1

The future seems to be Full Frame sensors in all kind of bodies, from standard DSLRs, to compacts such as Sony RX1 and to mirrorless being planned by Panasonic and also perhaps Sony.

Canon's Masaya let the cat out of the bag when he said that semi-pros will go FF in near future.
"There will be a Canon EOS 70D, but the future of semi-pro DSLRs is probably full-frame, says Masaya Maeda" http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda

There is a rumor going around that in a Panasonic long term planning meeting they announced that M43 is ultimately transitional product and the next big thing for them is to offer the "CFF" or Compact Full Frame mirrorless cameras.

The plan is to offer FF in as small and light bodies as possible and to develop brand new FF lenses to also be as light and compact as possible.

Just a few years ago, if you wanted FF, you had to spend 7000+. Now you can get them for just about 2000. Next they'll be offered at the $1500 price point.

Since in the short few years Canon and Nikon will offer $1500 FFs, this would create even a larger gap that currently exists between M43 sensors and the APS-C. Keep in mind that M43 started when FFs were still out of the reach of most people.

Pls don't ask me for my source and I am sure everyone at Pana will deny this, as it will affect the sale of the current M43 cameras. This is just a rumor, but makes real sense to me.

Makes a lot of sense really. That was my feeling for a few months that Panasonic would bail out. Not only because the move to FF compact mirrorless is inevitable, but also because in m4/3 playing field Panasonic was a failure, losing to Olympus badly. God forbid, some Chinese company enters m4/3 with cheap offerings and Panasonic will be completely done away with. So they lost m4/3 battles, but unlike Olympus they haven't been deeply invested in the system, so they will cut the losses short and will jump into FF, where the battle only starts. The next five years will be fantastic, all major manufacturers will be fiercely fighting for domination in the FF mirrorless market. That will bring new designs and lower prices. I predict within 5 years FF mirrorless bodies for under $1G (discarding inflation).

I agree. I'm sure we will see a lot of attempts to create a mirrorless FF market quite soon. But I'm not sure that it will kill m4/3. But what will happen to APS-C?

If Canon and Nikon decide to create mirrorless FF consumer cameras they probably will give up the APS-C format. The question is what Samsung, Fuji and others who are deep into APS-C will do. Sony has already started the journey into FF mirrorless with the RX1 and nest step is probably a FF NEX. I wouldn't be surprised if APS-C fades away. Lenses and bodies for APS-C dslr are as big as many FF dslrs. If there are consumer-oriented mirrorless FF cameras with same size and weight as an entry-level dslr why shouldn't one choose one of these?

Ok, lens size can be an argument against it. FF lenses are big, APS-C kit lenses can be quite small, but the better ones are as big as FF lenses. With IS is in the body they could be made smaller, but Canon and Nikon will hardly go that way I guess, they seem to be committed to in-lens IS. A short register distance to the sensor makes the lenses shorter anyway, if not thinner.

Why will m43 survive? If APS-C is abandoned by the great marks m43 will be the serious smaller alternative to FF. Size still matters, and to many photgraphers that don't listen to the FF sirens seductive temptations and regard the m43 IQ as fully sufficient, m43 will still be an ideal match of size and quality.

The Achilles' heel in your argument is the assumption that FF system has to be bigger and/or heavier than an equivalent m4/3 or APS-C system. That doesn't have to be the case: http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#2

Both APS-C and m4/3 will not survive FF onslaught in the long run. In the short run they will compete on the basis of prices and maturity.

Mahmoud Mousef Senior Member • Posts: 2,604
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43
There is a rumor going around that in a Panasonic long term planning meeting they announced that M43 is ultimately transitional product and the next big thing for them is to offer the "CFF" or Compact Full Frame mirrorless cameras.

Makes sense for Panasonic to compete with the established players in the higher-end segment, where money to be made is higher.

I'm sure management is sick of discounting Micro Four Thirds cameras.

But I always thought they'd release a smaller mirorless format before they released a larger one, just like their competitors have done (Nikon 1, etc). Smaller sensors are far cheaper to make and allow for even smaller (cheaper) bodies and lenses.

Ulric Veteran Member • Posts: 4,535
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43

The Achilles' heel in your argument is the assumption that FF system has to be bigger and/or heavier than an equivalent m4/3 or APS-C system. That doesn't have to be the case: http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#2

Both APS-C and m4/3 will not survive FF onslaught in the long run. In the short run they will compete on the basis of prices and maturity.

That's what I thought before, but I'm not so sure any more. What is the smallest FF 90/4 lens? Even if somebody were to make a small 90/4 FF lens, what would the advantage be compared to an M.Zuiko 45/1.8 on an MFT body?

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Martin.au
Martin.au Forum Pro • Posts: 13,230
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43

The future seems to be Full Frame sensors in all kind of bodies, from standard DSLRs, to compacts such as Sony RX1 and to mirrorless being planned by Panasonic and also perhaps Sony.

Canon's Masaya let the cat out of the bag when he said that semi-pros will go FF in near future.
"There will be a Canon EOS 70D, but the future of semi-pro DSLRs is probably full-frame, says Masaya Maeda" http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda

There is a rumor going around that in a Panasonic long term planning meeting they announced that M43 is ultimately transitional product and the next big thing for them is to offer the "CFF" or Compact Full Frame mirrorless cameras.

The plan is to offer FF in as small and light bodies as possible and to develop brand new FF lenses to also be as light and compact as possible.

Just a few years ago, if you wanted FF, you had to spend 7000+. Now you can get them for just about 2000. Next they'll be offered at the $1500 price point.

Since in the short few years Canon and Nikon will offer $1500 FFs, this would create even a larger gap that currently exists between M43 sensors and the APS-C. Keep in mind that M43 started when FFs were still out of the reach of most people.

Pls don't ask me for my source and I am sure everyone at Pana will deny this, as it will affect the sale of the current M43 cameras. This is just a rumor, but makes real sense to me.

Makes a lot of sense really. That was my feeling for a few months that Panasonic would bail out. Not only because the move to FF compact mirrorless is inevitable, but also because in m4/3 playing field Panasonic was a failure, losing to Olympus badly. God forbid, some Chinese company enters m4/3 with cheap offerings and Panasonic will be completely done away with. So they lost m4/3 battles, but unlike Olympus they haven't been deeply invested in the system, so they will cut the losses short and will jump into FF, where the battle only starts. The next five years will be fantastic, all major manufacturers will be fiercely fighting for domination in the FF mirrorless market. That will bring new designs and lower prices. I predict within 5 years FF mirrorless bodies for under $1G (discarding inflation).

I agree. I'm sure we will see a lot of attempts to create a mirrorless FF market quite soon. But I'm not sure that it will kill m4/3. But what will happen to APS-C?

If Canon and Nikon decide to create mirrorless FF consumer cameras they probably will give up the APS-C format. The question is what Samsung, Fuji and others who are deep into APS-C will do. Sony has already started the journey into FF mirrorless with the RX1 and nest step is probably a FF NEX. I wouldn't be surprised if APS-C fades away. Lenses and bodies for APS-C dslr are as big as many FF dslrs. If there are consumer-oriented mirrorless FF cameras with same size and weight as an entry-level dslr why shouldn't one choose one of these?

Ok, lens size can be an argument against it. FF lenses are big, APS-C kit lenses can be quite small, but the better ones are as big as FF lenses. With IS is in the body they could be made smaller, but Canon and Nikon will hardly go that way I guess, they seem to be committed to in-lens IS. A short register distance to the sensor makes the lenses shorter anyway, if not thinner.

Why will m43 survive? If APS-C is abandoned by the great marks m43 will be the serious smaller alternative to FF. Size still matters, and to many photgraphers that don't listen to the FF sirens seductive temptations and regard the m43 IQ as fully sufficient, m43 will still be an ideal match of size and quality.

The Achilles' heel in your argument is the assumption that FF system has to be bigger and/or heavier than an equivalent m4/3 or APS-C system. That doesn't have to be the case: http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#2

Both APS-C and m4/3 will not survive FF onslaught in the long run. In the short run they will compete on the basis of prices and maturity.

The Achilles' heel in your argument is the assumption that equivalence is important.

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oklaphotog Senior Member • Posts: 1,093
Re: Why would Full frame Mirrorless affect M4/3?

Lenses would still be big right???

Nope, it's a common misconception. Compare, for instance, 35-100/2 on 4/3 and the 70-200/4L IS on 35mm FF. The size of most lenses is determined by the amount of light they need to collect, the same amount light - the same size of the lenses, no matter what the sensor size is: http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#2

Except the fact that F4 is slow. The main reason for an F2.8 or faster aperture is to achieve faster shutter speeds. As someone who owns a 70-200/4 and 70-200/2.8 L, I can tell you there is a huge difference in size, and for many things that extra stop of light from the bigger lens is a godsend.

mpgxsvcd Veteran Member • Posts: 8,094
Re: Pana is rumored to plan CFF (compact full frame) for post M43
1

I find it interesting that you are not bashful about boasting that you are a Pro photographer.

You say "DUDE" way too much. Note: Saying Dude once is too much.

You started posting right about the time Will Crockett removed his account from here.

Will is that you? That would explain a lot about your posts.

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Just Having Fun Veteran Member • Posts: 3,869
Physics and facts

Larger sensors cost exponentially more to manufacture.

A FF 3:2 sensor will always need a larger lens than an m43 sensor (everything else being equal).

Smartphones with smaller sensors are killing P&S cameras and most other camera market segments too.

MY guess is the mirrorless FF camera is similar to the Sony SACD ploy they tried a while back (and 3DTV more recently).   Create a more expensive product and try to get consumers to fall for it.  Of course Sony got crushed by lower quality MP3 players instead, and are losing billions in the TV market.  We all know how this will end. 

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