Time is running out for Samsung, Sony, and other mirrorless camera makers

Started Mar 19, 2013 | Discussions
MichaelKJ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,466
Re: allot of huff and puff, not much substance

I think my 85L /1.2 weighs more then my EM-5 w/the Panasonic 35-100 f/2.8 combo... I would not want to carry my Canon dslr lenses around with a smaller body, defeats the purpose of a mirorless camera.

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thank Canon for L and BMW for M

I don't think the EOS-B is aimed at people who want to use L glass.  Imo, it is intended to be an alternative for those who would only use a mirrorless camera with one or two kit lenses.  The 18-55 only weighs 7.4 ounces and Canon will use their marketing muscle to tout the advantages of PDAF for soccer mom & dads over mirrorless.

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jcharding Senior Member • Posts: 2,341
Re: Think

6 years ago, there was no mirrorless. At that point it was way way down the road out of the box thinking.  During that time period, Sony hung its user out to dry from a lens perspective.  They rebadges the Minolta 70-200mm and 300mm/2.8, and then they marked them up a few hundred dollars (despite doing nothing other than changing the word Minolta to Sony).  For years they had major holes in their A mount lens lineup, and many of those holes still exist now.  These holes existed despite the fact that Sony was handed all of the lens designs for these holes.

Moreover, despite touting the Minolta lenses as a reason to buy Sony bodies, Sony utterly refused to repair any of them - even when there was no corresponding Sony equivalent.  Many Minolta users either got fed up and left (Minolta G glass values on eBay have fallen 33-50% since that time due to these policies), or they hang on and pray that whatever they have doesn't break because if it does it can't be repaired and there is no substitute (such as users of the Minolta 600/4).

Sony chose the most profit laden plan at the expense of a full lens lineup for the A Mount.  I understand why they did it.  But to pretend that Sony didn't have these flaws for the A mount, and that these identical flaws for NEX mount are suddenly going to go away, is flat out foolish. I'm not here to bash Sony - again I've used and liked their bodies.  This isn't brand bashing, this is reality that users need to understand and accept or leave.

Moreover, as it relates to the original article that spawned this thread, these flaws mean that there is a large path that Canikon can use to exploit and pummel Sony.  And Canikon has done so for the A Mount.  For example, if you are a serious wildlife or sports shooter, its really hard to choose Sony.  Canikon knows this - the glass just isn't there.  Now applying this to NEX - Canikon knows that Sony is all over Best Buy and other similar outlets with NEX - but if Canikon can produce small bodies that use APS-C glass, then they have an opportunity to again squeeze out Sony from a market segment.

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gskolenda
gskolenda Senior Member • Posts: 1,100
Re: Agreed

MichaelKJ wrote:

Mike Fewster wrote:

Acrill wrote:

nonsense

Thom obviously hasn't looked at the lens range available for the Nex now for a while plus there is some nice new glass close to release. mft is going just fine and is establishing itself as the small bodied system camera. Let's see how a small dslr handles movies, an increasingly important aspect of these cameras. Canon's previous mirrorless has been a flop and their larger sensor/small bodied cameras have been completely outperformed by the Sony RX100 and RX1

here’s Canon’s new image sensor. Is it destined for digital cinema cameras?

The press release in full from Canon

TOKYO, March 4, 2013—Canon Inc. announced today that the company has successfully developed a high-sensitivity 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor exclusively for video recording. Delivering high-sensitivity, low-noise imaging performance, the new Canon 35 mm CMOS sensor*1 enables the capture of Full HD video even in exceptionally low-light environments.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/9761/breaking-news-canon-announce-new-full-frame-sensor-for-video

The sensor isn't the problem for small dslr movies. The problem is that mirror and mirror assembly that has to be between the lens and the sensor

Just because the EOS-M was a bad beginning, I think it would be foolish to underestimate Canon.

I wouldn't underestimate them, they just haven't shown anything as yet. The running is all being made by other companies. Bit by bit, this starts to erode the company image. In another thread here, there is a post on a Canon rumor. Canon senior exec claims that the future is all FF. I find that rumor credible. Check recent Canon APS-C releases? They seem to be falling behind in everything except FF. If I was a Canon exec I'd be trying very hard to convince people (and maybe myself) of the truth of this as well.

A lot of cameras are sold on ego., ie, the identification that some owners get by having a particular brand around their neck, rather than the actual performance of the gear.We can expect lots of sales to continue to be made on this basis, but bit by bit other brands are encroaching.

True, and the the fact that other brands are threatening Canikon means they will do everything possible to defend their dominance. I agree with Thom that mFT is in the best position to compete against the big two. I also agree with his assessment that the other mirrorless companies have more to be worried about.

As far as egos are concerned, it seems that many people here want to see Canikon fail no matter how good their new cameras are.

Not so much (on my part anyway) wanting them to fail, just commenting on the cameras they are producing. And I would exempt Nikon who continue to produce interesting and innovative cameras across their range.

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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia

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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia

Nikon better improve there customer service, and there Quality Control. I thought about getting a D800 or D800e with one really good wide, fast prime, and use it just for special landscape shots that I can sell because of print size ability with that 36MP sensor. But, they are having one He__ of a time with there quality control and not treating there customers fairly, and it's not just a few, it's too many for me. Sorry Nikon.

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gskolenda
gskolenda Senior Member • Posts: 1,100
Re: Their cameras all look dumb...

Well, Canon and Nikon will get some mirrorless customers, especially those that are current canon and nikon lens owners that are in love with there lenses.

Sony's Nex Line is a joke! the 7 sucks, with its video overheating issues, and poor QUALITY Lenses! I did not buy the Nex 7 to use old glass and different adapters and lose many body functions! There lens line is soft, I know, I have three of them I'm trying to get rid of.

How is NEX AF in your experience?

It's Ok, too slow for video IMO, hunts a little in low light. I would say average. One of the really big features being taught ed in the Panasonic bodeis, especially the GH3 is it's very fast focus, and it's contrast detect, not Phase detect. Many reviews I have read from enthusiasts to pros, have said it is the fastest Autofocus they have ever used, even faster than canikon bodies.

Do a little research on the GH3 and you will be presently surprised.

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gskolenda
gskolenda Senior Member • Posts: 1,100
Re: Their cameras all look dumb...

Well, Canon and Nikon will get some mirrorless customers, especially those that are current canon and nikon lens owners that are in love with there lenses.

Sony's Nex Line is a joke! the 7 sucks, with its video overheating issues, and poor QUALITY Lenses! I did not buy the Nex 7 to use old glass and different adapters and lose many body functions! There lens line is soft, I know, I have three of them I'm trying to get rid of.

MFT's is very cool, Why? Because there is an extensive selection of MFT's lenses that matches many of canons lenses except there super zooms. Plus the MFT's lenses are super light weight, and priced reasonable as compared to canon and nikon.

Panasonic has got it going on, I would never switch to canons eos-b or what ever the He__ you call it. I don't and many other people don't want those boat anchor lenses either, if you think that's BS then why has the Mirrorless market even emerged. Ziess, schmisse, is over priced, good optics? Some. Many don't have OIS. Sony may bale out there E-mount and nex line, we'll see, I'm tired of waiting and I'm now committed to the MFT's mount and the Panasonic GH body line, especially the GH3.

If canon really wants to kick up the Mirrorless market they need to come out with a small body like the Sony Nex line, and a complete line up of killer smaller lenses that match there bigger lenses. But I don't think they will because they can't get away from there boat-anchors tied around there ankles. What I love about the MFT's market is they created from scratch a complete new platform with a nice array of lenses and accessories that are of a very nice quality.

Thank you, Olympus and Panasonic! Samsung screwed up they should have gone MFT's

But they got caught with the Ricoh crap, that's dying faster than the canons M line.

Soon as I can Dump my Nex Crap, I'm gone MFT's GH3!

Your comments re Sony lenses is patently absurd. For starters, check the performance of the Sony 35mm 1,8; the Sony 10-18 zoom, the Sony 18-200 zoom. And the kit 18-55 is an excellent kit zoom. Yes, the mft range is more extensive and more truly qualifies as a fully developed system. But most people should have no problems finding quality glass that meets their needs in the Sony e mount range. And now the really small lenses are starting to appear as well. In two weeks, the 20mm pancake. And we haven't started to look at the third party e mounts that are slowly increasing.

PS. All digital megs need sharpening. Sony by default set their sharpening a little lower than many others. Have you tried adjusting the sharpening settings?

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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia

I've been shooting digital since Namoo was a Minnow! I have the Sony Nex7 and a Sony VG20 camcorder, I also have there 16mm pancake, complete waist of money, you would be lucky to get $65.00 US for it on the used market. I also have there 18-55 kit, another joke, soft in the corners, and soft overall, I also have the 18-200mm Zoom. acceptable, but not stellar.

I don't want third party lenses, and all kinds of adapter crap to make things work. Sorry, you need to use some Nikon & Canon L glass to see where you don't need post sharpening, I want the lens to resolve it's natural sharpness through the body design not handicapped and fixed in post. If you have and like Nex lenses, I have three for sale!

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Mike Fewster Veteran Member • Posts: 6,599
Re: Their cameras all look dumb...
1

Well, Canon and Nikon will get some mirrorless customers, especially those that are current canon and nikon lens owners that are in love with there lenses.

Sony's Nex Line is a joke! the 7 sucks, with its video overheating issues, and poor QUALITY Lenses! I did not buy the Nex 7 to use old glass and different adapters and lose many body functions! There lens line is soft, I know, I have three of them I'm trying to get rid of.

MFT's is very cool, Why? Because there is an extensive selection of MFT's lenses that matches many of canons lenses except there super zooms. Plus the MFT's lenses are super light weight, and priced reasonable as compared to canon and nikon.

Panasonic has got it going on, I would never switch to canons eos-b or what ever the He__ you call it. I don't and many other people don't want those boat anchor lenses either, if you think that's BS then why has the Mirrorless market even emerged. Ziess, schmisse, is over priced, good optics? Some. Many don't have OIS. Sony may bale out there E-mount and nex line, we'll see, I'm tired of waiting and I'm now committed to the MFT's mount and the Panasonic GH body line, especially the GH3.

If canon really wants to kick up the Mirrorless market they need to come out with a small body like the Sony Nex line, and a complete line up of killer smaller lenses that match there bigger lenses. But I don't think they will because they can't get away from there boat-anchors tied around there ankles. What I love about the MFT's market is they created from scratch a complete new platform with a nice array of lenses and accessories that are of a very nice quality.

Thank you, Olympus and Panasonic! Samsung screwed up they should have gone MFT's

But they got caught with the Ricoh crap, that's dying faster than the canons M line.

Soon as I can Dump my Nex Crap, I'm gone MFT's GH3!

Your comments re Sony lenses is patently absurd. For starters, check the performance of the Sony 35mm 1,8; the Sony 10-18 zoom, the Sony 18-200 zoom. And the kit 18-55 is an excellent kit zoom. Yes, the mft range is more extensive and more truly qualifies as a fully developed system. But most people should have no problems finding quality glass that meets their needs in the Sony e mount range. And now the really small lenses are starting to appear as well. In two weeks, the 20mm pancake. And we haven't started to look at the third party e mounts that are slowly increasing.

PS. All digital megs need sharpening. Sony by default set their sharpening a little lower than many others. Have you tried adjusting the sharpening settings?

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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia

I've been shooting digital since Namoo was a Minnow! I have the Sony Nex7 and a Sony VG20 camcorder, I also have there 16mm pancake, complete waist of money, you would be lucky to get $65.00 US for it on the used market. I also have there 18-55 kit, another joke, soft in the corners, and soft overall, I also have the 18-200mm Zoom. acceptable, but not stellar.

I don't want third party lenses, and all kinds of adapter crap to make things work. Sorry, you need to use some Nikon & Canon L glass to see where you don't need post sharpening, I want the lens to resolve it's natural sharpness through the body design not handicapped and fixed in post. If you have and like Nex lenses, I have three for sale!

If you think digital images don't need sharpening, you don't understand digital. Further, the degree and type of sharpening depends on the output where the image will be displayed. ie, there is no one sharpening setting for all uses of the image. ALL and I mean ALL manufacturers apply sharpening in their processing (even in RAW). How much they apply varies from maker to maker. Oly, for example, have always tended to use a little more than most others at default. I now even more suspect that your problem is with your settings rather than the lenses.

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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Senior Member • Posts: 2,850
Re: If I read that right.....

Agree++ think Nikon will follow the same approach as well and maybe a mirrorless design (entry - mid level) that can mount DX/FF lenses and possibly CX lenses via adapter too.

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Senior Member • Posts: 2,850
Re: Time is running out for The big two

Canon needs to revamp the Eos M line with faster focusing cameras and larger selection of lenses before this line totally disappears.

Think it may be difficult for Canon to get strong foot print in Mirrorless as many users are ready stuck into a brand and line like M/43 or Nex and there is little incentive in dumping and moving...

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,851
Re: Time is running out for The big two
3

Think it may be difficult for Canon to get strong foot print in Mirrorless as many users are ready stuck into a brand and line like M/43 or Nex and there is little incentive in dumping and moving...

Canon could easily get quite a sizable mirrorless market share simply by coming out with a mirrorless camera that takes their existing lenses (via a full-function adapter) and has performance and features at least on a par with their low- to mid-range DSLRs.   There are plenty of Canon users looking for a compact camera to use with all the lenses they own.

Unfortunately, Canon's making the same mistake that Olympus and Panasonic did initially - they think that the only people interested in mirrorless cameras are P&S upgraders.  Hence, the soap-bar styled EOS-M.   That camera simply doesn't satisfy many of their existing DSLR users - it would be too much of a step down for them.

Aiming at the P&S upgrade market is stupid, because a P&S upgrader has no compelling reason (i.e., no investment in lenses) to choose Canon.  A smart P&S upgrader will look at the available options and rightly conclude that the EOS-M is the worst pick because of the camera itself and because of the almost complete lack of a native lens system to go with it.

If Canon doesn't turn the EOS-M system into something serious very quickly then it will be too late to catch a lot of those P&S upgraders, and even it's own DSLR users may start to jump ship for better offerings elsewhere.

MichaelKJ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,466
Re: Time is running out for The big two

Canon hasn't done well with their EOS M and later this week they are coming out with the EOS B. Canon seems to be throwing dart and hoping something sticks. I really don't think they have a plan to compete witih mirrorless.

I think it is likely that the EOS B was in the works when the EOS M was released.  It would appear that their plan is to go after mirrorless with a two-pronged attack.  How successful their plan will be remains to be seen, but they aren't off to a good start.  The response to the M should have sent them back to the drawing board for their next mirrorless model.

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Lucas_
Lucas_ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: Time is running out for Thom Hogan

Ken Rockwell and Luminous Landscape have much better web sites. It's only a matter of time before they draw all the advertising and click-through revenue away from Thom Hogan. Unless he dramatically improves his content, Thom Hogan will inevitably have to shut down his web site and focus on marginally useful user manuals.

....

I agree, Thom has become a joke for his extremely biased crystal-ball comments and "know it all" syndrome. IMHO his time has passed and he didn't notice. I hardly read his "previsions" any more, usually only by accident.

... Lucas

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Senior Member • Posts: 2,850
Re: Time is running out for The big two
1

Good post....

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Just Having Fun Veteran Member • Posts: 3,869
Not really true
1

1st I don't think Thom relies as much on advertising (I could be wrong).  Ken seems to beg for money on every page though.

2nd, these sites thrive on controversy.  Ken makes dumb comments often and it drives traffic to his site.  Thom says stuff that people take sides on and gets them thinking which causes threads like this and traffic to his site.

Think about the media today.  What gets the highest ratings?  Standard old fashioned news, or outlandish "reality" TV and radical opinion shows?

Mike Fewster Veteran Member • Posts: 6,599
Right On

1st I don't think Thom relies as much on advertising (I could be wrong). Ken seems to beg for money on every page though.

2nd, these sites thrive on controversy. Ken makes dumb comments often and it drives traffic to his site. Thom says stuff that people take sides on and gets them thinking which causes threads like this and traffic to his site.

Think about the media today. What gets the highest ratings? Standard old fashioned news, or outlandish "reality" TV and radical opinion shows?

One of the great truths that needs to be understood by everyone. The world of journalism is being totally corrupted by this. News outlets are desperate to generate "hits" as these count now as circulation and high hits generate advertising revenue. ie, it doesn't matter what you say, as long as you generate a response. The Murdoch company in particular use this technique. (I say this with shame as the Murdoch empire began here in Adelaide, Australia.

Mike Fewster
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RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 28,158
Re: Your response is funny...

RedFox88 wrote:

PS - I think both the E-M5 and GH3 focus faster than many DSLRs in SAF/AFS

Want to try that again without using acronyms?  Mirrorless/EVIL cameras need good light to focus in a timely manner, and accurately.

MichaelKJ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,466
Re: Time is running out for The big two

Think it may be difficult for Canon to get strong foot print in Mirrorless as many users are ready stuck into a brand and line like M/43 or Nex and there is little incentive in dumping and moving...

Canon could easily get quite a sizable mirrorless market share simply by coming out with a mirrorless camera that takes their existing lenses (via a full-function adapter) and has performance and features at least on a par with their low- to mid-range DSLRs. There are plenty of Canon users looking for a compact camera to use with all the lenses they own.

Unfortunately, Canon's making the same mistake that Olympus and Panasonic did initially - they think that the only people interested in mirrorless cameras are P&S upgraders. Hence, the soap-bar styled EOS-M. That camera simply doesn't satisfy many of their existing DSLR users - it would be too much of a step down for them.

Aiming at the P&S upgrade market is stupid, because a P&S upgrader has no compelling reason (i.e., no investment in lenses) to choose Canon. A smart P&S upgrader will look at the available options and rightly conclude that the EOS-M is the worst pick because of the camera itself and because of the almost complete lack of a native lens system to go with it.

If Canon doesn't turn the EOS-M system into something serious very quickly then it will be too late to catch a lot of those P&S upgraders, and even it's own DSLR users may start to jump ship for better offerings elsewhere.

Agree about the M. However, the B might do well with the P&S crowd.

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jalywol
jalywol Veteran Member • Posts: 9,314
Re: Your response is funny...
1

RedFox88 wrote:

PS - I think both the E-M5 and GH3 focus faster than many DSLRs in SAF/AFS

Want to try that again without using acronyms? Mirrorless/EVIL cameras need good light to focus in a timely manner, and accurately.

I'm not sure what mirrorless cameras you have used recently, but the current M43 are fast and very accurate even in low light.  I just took the GH3 into an unlit room, and it instantly locked focus on some curtains at the far end of the room, no hunting, no bother.

Earlier generations were not as fast and would hunt, but recent iterations are very good (Panasonic may have a very slight edge in very dark situations, from what reviewers have said, but it is not a giant difference).  M43 in general has gotten ahead of the curve in terms of its mirrorless competition, too,  in this area....

-J

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 33,948
... but can elephants afford to dance?

... to establish a stronghold before the elephants come a trampling

This is from Thom Hogan's blog

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/dancing-with-elephants.html

The big boys has made their preparation and may soon respond in a big way. First they discount heavily their lower end DSLR products and now it seems their secret mirrorless weapons are about ready.

When the elephants dance they are going to break all the dslr china.

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Tom Caldwell

OP Sergey Borachev Veteran Member • Posts: 4,256
Re: Time is running out for The big two

Think it may be difficult for Canon to get strong foot print in Mirrorless as many users are ready stuck into a brand and line like M/43 or Nex and there is little incentive in dumping and moving...

Canon could easily get quite a sizable mirrorless market share simply by coming out with a mirrorless camera that takes their existing lenses (via a full-function adapter) and has performance and features at least on a par with their low- to mid-range DSLRs. There are plenty of Canon users looking for a compact camera to use with all the lenses they own.

Unfortunately, Canon's making the same mistake that Olympus and Panasonic did initially - they think that the only people interested in mirrorless cameras are P&S upgraders. Hence, the soap-bar styled EOS-M. That camera simply doesn't satisfy many of their existing DSLR users - it would be too much of a step down for them.

Aiming at the P&S upgrade market is stupid, because a P&S upgrader has no compelling reason (i.e., no investment in lenses) to choose Canon. A smart P&S upgrader will look at the available options and rightly conclude that the EOS-M is the worst pick because of the camera itself and because of the almost complete lack of a native lens system to go with it.

If Canon doesn't turn the EOS-M system into something serious very quickly then it will be too late to catch a lot of those P&S upgraders, and even it's own DSLR users may start to jump ship for better offerings elsewhere.

What you said is already starting to happen. Some Canon DSLR users have already jumped ship, a better Canon mirrorless (the EOS-b) is already designed and probably being manufactured to try to arrest any possible exodus

The only thing we are not sure is how successful that will be, but I am sure Canon will come up with a Plan-C if more is needed to defend its position. I also think that it would be more successful if it releases something more serious, so that it can be an alternative to its DSLR owners who are used to better cameras and may switch to the GH3 or E-M5 when they cannot get enough performance in these half-hearted mirrorless attempts. If that happens, M43 will also be threatened.  Defensive strategies may not work so well when technology forces a change.

Dawindyk Regular Member • Posts: 131
Re: Time is running out for Samsung, Sony, and other mirrorless camera makers

Sergey Borachev wrote:

... to establish a stronghold before the elephants come a trampling

This is from Thom Hogan's blog

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/dancing-with-elephants.html

The big boys has made their preparation and may soon respond in a big way. First they discount heavily their lower end DSLR products and now it seems their secret mirrorless weapons are about ready.

He is right. Olympus have not even persuaded me to buy more than one lens.

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A solution looking for a problem !

Or he's wrong - Canikon haven't even persuaded me to buy one body not to mention lenses ...

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