Ming Thein reviews the GH3

Started Mar 17, 2013 | Discussions
Najinsky Veteran Member • Posts: 5,739
Re: Interesting comments regarding the EVF
1

sea_dragon wrote:

Here is another person observing and commenting on the distortion present in the EVF. This is NOT an imaginary problem or a usage issue as certain individuals here have suggested. Doubters take note!

I haven't had my hands on the GH3 yet, but I think I understand the viewfinder problem quite well.

The Sony NEX-7 I tried had an issue which sounds exactly the same problem described for the GH3. I gave it to the shop guys and they looked and said it looked fine to them. They were interested in a sale so I don't know if they were being genuine about not seeing it. If I manoeuvred my eye into an exact position against the finder, I just about got a clear image over most the finder with just the very edges having a slight foggy glow. But as soon as I moved my eye a fraction, around 60% of the finder turned to blurred foggy mush. I also didn't like the off-centre placement, so I bought the NEX-5N instead.

Previously I used 2 Ricoh EVFs, a few Nikons with EVF, none of which I liked that much but at least I could see through them. And also the X100 with hybrid finder where the EVF  mode was very good and I preferred it to the OVF.

Given the hype around the technology of the Sony EVF I was a bit shocked it looked so poor to me, and then discovered there were only infrequent discussions about it in the NEX forum and many owners never saw the problem, I assumed the shop unit was defective, but was very relieved when my OM-D arrived to see the finder was bright and clear.

I't will be interesting to see if I see a similar issue with the GH3 when I get a chance to play with it.

It seems crazy that some people see it and some don't, it really wasn't subtle, it was near unusable on the NEX.

-Najinsky

devlin2427 Regular Member • Posts: 469
Re: Interesting comments regarding the EVF

Winston Loo wrote:

devlin2427 wrote:

Ming is primarily a prime m43 shooter. The bigger, uglier, heavier GH3 doesn't really offer enough benefits for a stills photographer. I don't think he's biased towards Olympus but simply he doesn't need what the GH3 has to offer.

He praised the image quality and the AF but I guess the feeling of the camera is equally important. At the end of the day m43 users can choose between two equally good for stills bodies with one being smaller and subjectively prettier and the other one more utilitarian and a better video camera. Its a win-win if you ask me.

Agree.. but why is he censoring my objective comments. I pointed out some inaccuracies as well as my own opinion of using the GH3. He moderated it. Is he afraid of feeback that differs from his? Tell me that doesnt smack of bias bordering predjudice.

My guess: his playground, his rules. I normally don't pay to much attention to his tests because his other content is much more interesting.

amtberg Veteran Member • Posts: 6,059
A subjective opinion, not a review

I've enjoyed Ming's lens reviews, but this GH3 review is worthless.  It's factually inaccurate (you can easily set ISO limits -- without even accessing a menu, for example) and generally just represents his personal preferences (Oly menus vs. Panasonic, small vs. less small).  The EVF has been discussed ad nauseum and it's prettty clear at this point that some are much more sensitive to its narrow eye point than others.  Obviously Ming is at the sensitive extreme.  He's a fine stills photographer but obviously has very little knowledge of video.

Just Having Fun Veteran Member • Posts: 3,869
Opinion/Bias ruined the review.

Since the GH3 is very customizable, for many easy to use, I think he let his bias take over the review.  It is pretty obvious.

For the record, I think the GH3 is much easier to hold and use than the E-M5 and even NEX7, but that is only an opinion too.  I would say for anyone shooting stills only, go for the E-M5.

John Buechler Regular Member • Posts: 130
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3

I believe the review points out one thing that worries me. The buttons are too flush, don't have any tactical feedback ( click when pressed ) and seem to be of a lower build quality than my older G2 which had very easy to use buttons. My G5 has the same low grade buttons, especially the movie and iA buttons. The four way controller on the G5 is also mushy on the bottom part and has hard to read icons.  My GH2 buttons are ok. The view finder issue I will have to see for myself. Besides the blur issue it seems to be shrinking in size. I hope cost constraints aren't getting ahead of quality control in an effort to protect margins. John

 John Buechler's gear list:John Buechler's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G5 Olympus E-M5 II Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Fisheye 8mm F3.5 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH +24 more
nann40 New Member • Posts: 8
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3

Are you blind ? Look at the test shots !!! EM5 users should be looking for tar, feathers, and a rail to ride you out of town partner. The GH3 shoots the same quality as the G5,G3, etc. the EM5 test shots are miles sharper. Don't get your shorts in a knot, but you are wrong about what the GH3 delivers. Did you work out a deal for a percentage of restocking fees when people return the GH3 ?

NZ Scott
NZ Scott Veteran Member • Posts: 4,734
What were those "inaccuracies", exactly?
13

Winston Loo wrote:


Agree.. but why is he censoring my objective comments. I pointed out some inaccuracies as well as my own opinion of using the GH3. He moderated it. Is he afraid of feeback that differs from his? Tell me that doesnt smack of bias bordering predjudice.

Winston, this is I think the fourth time I've read this comment of yours about him censoring your opinions. If I'm not mistaken you've also been making this accusation on the 43rumours site, under a different name.

I'm curious to know exactly what your opinion was, and what these "inaccuracies" were.

Could you please cut-and-paste it as a reply?

I have a suspicion from the tone of your comments ("smack of bias" ... "bordering prejudice") that there might have been something distasteful about the way you expressed your opinion, and that might be the reason it was removed.

 NZ Scott's gear list:NZ Scott's gear list
Olympus PEN E-P3 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM5 Panasonic G85 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 +12 more
PC Wheeler
PC Wheeler Forum Pro • Posts: 17,843
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3
2

The entire tone of his "review" is snide: e.g., If you must have one ... . He notes that the body is so light that with a 14-140 lens the system is front heavy. Never mind that the OM-D is lighter still.

I wonder if the student who loaned him the camera appreciates what he wrote?

This is no review but rather a hatchet job.

-- hide signature --

Phil

 PC Wheeler's gear list:PC Wheeler's gear list
Panasonic ZS100 Canon PowerShot ELPH 330 HS Sony RX10 IV
jalywol
jalywol Veteran Member • Posts: 9,383
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3

nann40 wrote:

Are you blind ? Look at the test shots !!! EM5 users should be looking for tar, feathers, and a rail to ride you out of town partner. The GH3 shoots the same quality as the G5,G3, etc. the EM5 test shots are miles sharper. Don't get your shorts in a knot, but you are wrong about what the GH3 delivers. Did you work out a deal for a percentage of restocking fees when people return the GH3 ?

This is so silly it's funny.

Have you used the GH3? The EM5? Have you worked with files from either one?

The specs from both sensors, according to all the reviews, are so close as to be equivalent, which suggests they use, if not the same sensor, then one that is mighty close to identical. Resolution (not to be confused with sharpness) appears to test out to be very close, if not actually the same (depending on reviewer). Clearly, Panasonic put a stronger AA filter on the sensor to combat moire, which is realy important in video applications, and I am quite sure that accounts for the out-of-camera sharpness differences that you are seeing in the unprocessed images.

Having worked with the files from both sensors, I can tell you that whatever differences there are when you use the cameras are pretty darn subtle. If you are judging JPG output, of course, then there are more obvious differences between them, but those differences are not sensor based; they are due to the processing algorithms chosen by the manufacturers, and should not be used to judge the fundamental image quality capabilites of the camera.

If the only thing you judge a camera on is the sharpness of image output in one set of test files, then you perhaps need to spend a little more time with some cameras and some post processing software to get a little more perspective on things.

PS: The GH3, in real world results, is noticeably better than the GH2, G3, etc. (all of which I have used, some of which extensively). It and the OMD are really on a par, and are both fine cameras, quite a leap ahead of earlier M43 in their rendering capabilities (and this from someone who still really likes the GH2)....but in head to head comparisons, the GH3 just simply produces nicer images, and much easier image files to work with in PP, too.

-J

jalywol
jalywol Veteran Member • Posts: 9,383
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3
3

richarddd wrote:

Bottom line, essentially the same image quality as the E-M5, but he does not like the "UI and overall control logic: it just doesn’t feel like a well-thought out product, and isn’t at all intuitive in use."

Interesting review actually.  From the hoopla, I thought it would be a lot worse.

What is clear is that the ergonomics of the camera just put him off of it. I can't quite figure out why he had problems with the menu system, actually, though, as it is far less complex than the equivalent Oly set up which he uses with no problems....

Essentially, he said, IQ seems about the same as the OMD, but that he disliked it in hand so much that he wasn't going to bother figuring out how to optimize it for his work.

Fair enough. When I tried the EPL5, after using it for a day I found it so uncomfortable to hold, and the rear screen so small that I boxed it up and gave up.  Great output, but not for me......Sounds like this happened here with the GH3 and the reviewer.

No biggie....it is what it is.

-J



PC Wheeler
PC Wheeler Forum Pro • Posts: 17,843
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3

jalywol wrote:

PS: The GH3, in real world results, is noticeably better than the GH2, G3, etc. (all of which I have used, some of which extensively). It and the OMD are really on a par, and are both fine cameras, quite a leap ahead of earlier M43 in their rendering capabilities (and this from someone who still really likes the GH2)....but in head to head comparisons, the GH3 just simply produces nicer images, and much easier image files to work with in PP, too.

As a GH2 owner, with a GH3 (alas!) backordered, I'm pleased to read what you say re GH3 vs. OM-D IQ. The studio samples here at DPR suggest to me the Oly produces somewhat cleaner images at higher ISOs than does the GH3.

IQ aside, I chose the GH3 for all the reasons Ming denigrates it:

  • I like the size, particularly for use with my 14-140 and 100-300 lenses. My GH2 seems a bit too small. The OM-D is probably fine with short primes, but not for me with larger lenses
  • The Panasonic menu system has always seemed to me one of the best. In the short time I owned an E-PL3 I was always getting surprised by its settings.
  • Fully articulated LCD panel is another plus. With the GH2 I normally keep it turned in toward the camera for protection and don't use the touch control features; may be different with GH3

If the GH3 IQ is even as good, or nearly as good, as images I've seen from the OM-D I'll be pleased with my choice.

p.s. -- nice times we live in: Ming calls XXX to 1600 "Low ISO", and he's right. I remember when digicams topped out at 400 and I couldn't use it!

 PC Wheeler's gear list:PC Wheeler's gear list
Panasonic ZS100 Canon PowerShot ELPH 330 HS Sony RX10 IV
jalywol
jalywol Veteran Member • Posts: 9,383
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3

PC Wheeler wrote:

jalywol wrote:

PS: The GH3, in real world results, is noticeably better than the GH2, G3, etc. (all of which I have used, some of which extensively). It and the OMD are really on a par, and are both fine cameras, quite a leap ahead of earlier M43 in their rendering capabilities (and this from someone who still really likes the GH2)....but in head to head comparisons, the GH3 just simply produces nicer images, and much easier image files to work with in PP, too.

As a GH2 owner, with a GH3 (alas!) backordered, I'm pleased to read what you say re GH3 vs. OM-D IQ. The studio samples here at DPR suggest to me the Oly produces somewhat cleaner images at higher ISOs than does the GH3.

IQ aside, I chose the GH3 for all the reasons Ming denigrates it:

  • I like the size, particularly for use with my 14-140 and 100-300 lenses. My GH2 seems a bit too small. The OM-D is probably fine with short primes, but not for me with larger lenses
  •  

I have small hands so I tend to prefer smaller cameras, but I will say that I find the balance of the camera with larger lenses to be absolutely terrific (not sure why Ming found it unbalanced, actually, other reviewers have commented on how well it works with larger lenses, and that agrees with my own findings)

  • The Panasonic menu system has always seemed to me one of the best. In the short time I owned an E-PL3 I was always getting surprised by its settings.

  • Fully articulated LCD panel is another plus. With the GH2 I normally keep it turned in toward the camera for protection and don't use the touch control features; may be different with GH3

I rarely used the LCD in the GH2, and kept it turned inward most of the time also.  The LCD on the GH3 is so good that I find I use it now for most things, and the EVF for when it's very bright out or I need the extra bracing for stabilization.  It's THAT much better.  However, I DID put a screen protector on it immediately, as it is more flush with the bezel than the screen on the GH2, and I did not want to risk getting it scratched (or smudged with face oil).

I suspect you will be pleased with the camera  ...

-J

Pete Berry Veteran Member • Posts: 3,240
Read this from Ming for comparative IQ

nann40 wrote:

Are you blind ? Look at the test shots !!! EM5 users should be looking for tar, feathers, and a rail to ride you out of town partner. The GH3 shoots the same quality as the G5,G3, etc. the EM5 test shots are miles sharper. Don't get your shorts in a knot, but you are wrong about what the GH3 delivers. Did you work out a deal for a percentage of restocking fees when people return the GH3 ?

From the words of Ming Thein - who is not at all taken with the GH3 - regarding comparitive IQ's:

"It appears that along all the dimensions that matter – color accuracy, dynamic range, acuity – they’re the same sensor. Both cameras will give excellent results to ISO 1600, good results at 3200, and are usable in a pinch at 6400 – though personally I avoid this setting as dynamic range tends to be compromised. I’d rate the GH3 as being slightly cleaner than the OM-D, however – perhaps by half a stop or so." (my emphasis)

The main difference in my view of the DPRev studio shots is that the OMD show higher contrast in the RAW's - and a simple addition of 15 on the ACR "Clarity" filter to the GH3 files draws makes them pretty much indistinguishable.

PB

EPPaar
EPPaar Regular Member • Posts: 131
One size does NOT fit all
2

After trying out the OM-D for a couple of weeks, I opted to wait for GH3. The reasons were my personal needs.  I have large hands (mainly long fingers) and I have never been completely comfortable with any of the G or GH Panasonics and found the OM-D even less satisfactory especially with longer lenses.  The GH3 feels like it was custom made for me.  The man who owns the OM-D I borrowed, has much smaller hands and finds the GH3 too large and heavy for him.  By the same token, he prefers the tilting LCD of OM-D while I like a fully articulated screen.  We both agree the OM-D menu systems is worse than that designed by Panasonic.  However, both cameras can be set up in such a way that, after the initial setup, you seldom have to go into the menus.

The EVF problem does exist but I have to deliberately move a my eye far off center to see it.  This is true with or without glasses.  This may be simply the way I am used to looking thru a viewfinder.  I will admit that it should be improved.

The IQ I have found to be on a par with OM-D unless you are a dedicated pixel peeper.  I would agree with other reviewers that OM-D is slightly better than the GH3 for stills and the reverse is true for video.  The differences are, at least to my eyes, insignificant.  I have not had the GH3 long enough to fully experiment with the settings which might eliminate any real differences.

The one stupid comment that keeps appearing in these forms is the looks of the camera.  The job of a camera is to take beautiful pictures not be a beautiful picture.  In any case, this a matter of individual taste and really should not be a factor in choosing a photographic tool.

The reason we have so many different cameras is that individuals have different tastes and needs.  Both the OM-D and the GH3 are excellent cameras and you should select the one that meets as many of your needs as possible, and lacks as few features that you want as possible .

One thing is sure — There never has or will be such a thing as the "Perfect Camera".

-- hide signature --

Peter Photography has a lot in common with pipe smoking. There is far more fiddling around with the equipment than there ever is in using it!

 EPPaar's gear list:EPPaar's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7
Jeff Tokayer Veteran Member • Posts: 6,278
Re: One size does NOT fit all
1

EPPaar wrote:

Only one perfect camera, the human eye. Everything else is relative.

Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,263
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3

jalywol wrote:

richarddd wrote:

Bottom line, essentially the same image quality as the E-M5, but he does not like the "UI and overall control logic: it just doesn’t feel like a well-thought out product, and isn’t at all intuitive in use."

Interesting review actually. From the hoopla, I thought it would be a lot worse.

What is clear is that the ergonomics of the camera just put him off of it. I can't quite figure out why he had problems with the menu system, actually, though, as it is far less complex than the equivalent Oly set up which he uses with no problems....

Essentially, he said, IQ seems about the same as the OMD, but that he disliked it in hand so much that he wasn't going to bother figuring out how to optimize it for his work.

Fair enough. When I tried the EPL5, after using it for a day I found it so uncomfortable to hold, and the rear screen so small that I boxed it up and gave up. Great output, but not for me......Sounds like this happened here with the GH3 and the reviewer.

No biggie....it is what it is.

-J



I agree with what you wrote, ergonomics is a matter of personal preference.

For me , it's the opposite experience : after one year shooting, I cannot get used to the G1 (sold) and the GH2 menus and ergonomics. On the contrary, I feel good and intuitive with Oly cameras and I need only a couple of hours to get used.

I think our brains are not made all equals and it's wise to follow the way you feel good and comfortable.

The good thing : we have 4 choices with the same IQ (OM-D, GH3, E-PL5 and E-PM2), just choose what fits you the best!

 Pixnat2's gear list:Pixnat2's gear list
Nikon D810 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM5 Fujifilm X-T2
Marco Cinnirella
Marco Cinnirella Veteran Member • Posts: 6,810
Re: Ming Thein reviews the GH3
2

To those who accused me and others of lying or not knowing how to use an EVF - Now you can see we are not  - read Ming's comments on the EVF and they are exactly my experience - an apology would be nice!

-- hide signature --

"When words become unclear, I shall focus with photographs. When images become inadequate, I shall be content with silence." Ansell Adams.

 Marco Cinnirella's gear list:Marco Cinnirella's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Fujifilm X-T1 Sony a99 II Sony Alpha a99 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 +1 more
Lawrence Becker Regular Member • Posts: 395
He Reviewed it with the 14-140?

I have and really like the 14-140, but it isn't the best lens to review a camera with, I wouldn't think. I just picked up the April 2013 edition of Popular Photography, and they had the sense to review it with a GREAT lens - the PL 25 1.4, which I also have. A prime lens like that will let the camera really shine.

I understand he had a borrowed camera with whatever lens it had on it at the time, yada yada yada, but why even write anything if you can't do a proper review? What I got from it was that he was used to the Olympus-style menu system and didn't find the Panasonic menus similar enough. Um... so? I'm used to Canon, and the GH3 is very different - I'll sort it out.

How is a "review" like this helpful?

-- hide signature --

Larry Becker

Jeff Tokayer Veteran Member • Posts: 6,278
Re: He Reviewed it with the 14-140?...bla, bla, bla.
1

Lawrence Becker wrote:

I have and really like the 14-140, but it isn't the best lens to review a camera with, I wouldn't think. I just picked up the April 2013 edition of Popular Photography, and they had the sense to review it with a GREAT lens - the PL 25 1.4, which I also have. A prime lens like that will let the camera really shine.

I understand he had a borrowed camera with whatever lens it had on it at the time, yada yada yada, but why even write anything if you can't do a proper review? What I got from it was that he was used to the Olympus-style menu system and didn't find the Panasonic menus similar enough. Um... so? I'm used to Canon, and the GH3 is very different - I'll sort it out.

How is a "review" like this helpful?

If you look at the images in the review, you'll notice that he has a 12/2 attached to the GH3.

Everybody is an expert in criticizing others.

miketala Regular Member • Posts: 274
Re: He totally disses the GH3

richarddd wrote:

Bottom line, essentially the same image quality as the E-M5, but he does not like the "UI and overall control logic: it just doesn’t feel like a well-thought out product, and isn’t at all intuitive in use."

http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/03/17/panasonic-lumix-gh3/

My take was $600 more for a camera that lacks 5-axis IBIS, has a viewfinder he doesn't like as much, is as big as a DSLR, and has poor layout of buttons.

But it's not $600 more and he acknowledges this in reply to a comment but he then fails to fix the price. The review says far more about him than the camera.

Another example: he fails to even mention that the camera was designed from the ground up to deliver killer video, and instead hopes to play it off by saying he just doesn't know much about video. He only made 1/2 the disclosure, not the whole.

Mings reviews are very careful, this was sloppy and so out of character it stinks of bias.

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads