Reviews, hands-on, samples of HS50 Part VI

Started Mar 17, 2013 | Discussions
Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,428
Re: Kim

alexisgreat wrote:

Kim, would the dramatic increase in noise with L size DR 400 not happen if it selected the same ISO as M size DR 400?

The issue with L size is that you can't set the same ISO. DR must match ISO (hence DR400 automatically selects ISO400) because this is done with software tricks.

For those who have not been around since 2008, this technique deputed in the S100fs, where the noise increase was not too bad. But I think it has gotten worse, or at least the smearing effect, probably because of the difficulty they have demosaicing this matrix and because of the funky AA filter they need to cover the double wide elongated pixels.

I was doing comparison shots in rather challenging lighting and with aperture priority the camera selected ISO 3200 for both sizes- that's why when L size was resized to M size it showed very similar noise levels, but for some reason the L size image was quite a bit dimmer than the M size image, it was protecting highlights better and cutting shadows to black easier too- so not more DR but a lower overall exposure it seems. I checked EXIF using Irfanview and all the other parameters (aperture, shutter speed, ISO) were exactly the same, the only difference was the original resolution of the pictures.

Do you mean they were dimmer in Lightroom or ACR? Because this is a known issue with the Adobe / Fuji interaction in RAW. Images in M and L have wildly different default interpretations, and ISO changes affect it too.

Maybe this would be a case for your ISO not being boosted with L size DR 400 since it cant be because the camera selected ISO 3200 for L size and M size?

What's going on here?

Some say that only half the sensor is looked at in RAW M mode ... I don't think we have a definitive answer. But empirically, we know that the behavior is plain strange. But don't get too hung up on it ... adjusting the dials still makes for a pretty nice image.

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Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,428
Re: Hardware DR vs Software DR
1

LTZ470 wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:


Very good reading…but this is the part I call: Standing on one leg and clucking like a chicken to get a photo…then you have to go through extensive PP after shooting RAW...

As with other folks here, why can't there be a simple mode for good photos for us simpletons?

Your description of shooting with EXR is amusing, but entirely gratuitous.

In fact the article I wrote makes it clear that, for general purpose shooting, you need only one set of settings and the images are about as good as they can get. And still far better than the average in that class of sensor.

So in fact all the angst we see right now is coming from a whole new group of people who don't know anything about this technology, and who apparently do not use Google. My article has had 100,000 hits and comes up pretty early in the search for how to shoot EXR cameras. And it leads with a section that tells beginners exactly how to start shooting the camera.

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Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,428
Re: Hardware DR vs Software DR

MitchyK7 wrote:

Thankyou Kim, i will incorporate this into the memory banks from now on. When i got my original HS the guy in the shop was explaining the EXR advantage (I hadn't asked him, i wanted the camera anyway, but he insisted). He boiled it all down to pixel binning and the two is better than one mode, and that DR and SN mode used slightly different modes of that. This was in a professional photography shop, not PC World. So that's another one scrubbed off the ever dwindling list of 'reliable sources'. LOL

Thankyou for the information, which i shall read over again a couple of times in the next couple of days to make sure some of it sticks!

I still think resolution over DR has it uses sometimes. But that's just my opinion! LOL

You need to check your findings thoroughly though. I have found no situations in which an HR image looks better than a DR image upsized to match. But I have seem many situations where an HR image looks far worse than a DR image upsized to match.

So when you want a 12mp image on the 1/2" sensor, you are always better off shooting M size and upsizing them in photoshop.

Also remember that, to even come close to matching the quality in the two modes, you need to shoot at the same ISO. And the sensor is tiny, so you will want ISO 100. And because you have to use the same DR as ISO in L mode (no similar restriction in M mode), you end up with images with a lot of blocked shadows and blown highlights in L mode. That is a double whammy ...

Thankyou kindly

You are welcome.

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LTZ470
LTZ470 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,926
Re: Hardware DR vs Software DR

Kim Letkeman wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:


Very good reading…but this is the part I call: Standing on one leg and clucking like a chicken to get a photo…then you have to go through extensive PP after shooting RAW...

As with other folks here, why can't there be a simple mode for good photos for us simpletons?

Your description of shooting with EXR is amusing, but entirely gratuitous.

In fact the article I wrote makes it clear that, for general purpose shooting, you need only one set of settings and the images are about as good as they can get. And still far better than the average in that class of sensor.

So in fact all the angst we see right now is coming from a whole new group of people who don't know anything about this technology, and who apparently do not use Google. My article has had 100,000 hits and comes up pretty early in the search for how to shoot EXR cameras. And it leads with a section that tells beginners exactly how to start shooting the camera.

Thanks, I'll read this thoroughly for a clear understanding...

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MitchyK7 Regular Member • Posts: 131
Re: Hardware DR vs Software DR

Well this weeks copy of amateur photographer came with set of free cards, the usual white balance, high resolution, focus and colour cards. So i'll play with them alongside the different modes to see what i can see with regards to L and M mode. It's the upsizing M that doesn't sit right with me, as upsizing is 'making up' detail that you could have 'captured' in the first place. I mean in good light for a normal non DR shot is M still better in your opinion? As to me that's counter-intuitive. But it may be a quirk of the EXR sensor/cpu, and you are obviously the man to ask!

Tim39 Senior Member • Posts: 2,884
Re: Joms as thread mod

alexisgreat wrote:

I think for threads like this we should make the OP be able to mod his own thread and delete all posts not having directly to do with the camera (like this one haha).

+ 1!  

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Tim

LTZ470
LTZ470 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,926
Re: Joms as thread mod

Tim39 wrote:

alexisgreat wrote:

I think for threads like this we should make the OP be able to mod his own thread and delete all posts not having directly to do with the camera (like this one haha).

+ 1!

Agreed Tim, but there are not enough HS50's out for now to even start a thread?

We are going to have to pass the hat and send one to Joms so he can test?...

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I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

OP jcmarfilph Veteran Member • Posts: 7,592
Re: Joms as thread mod

LTZ470 wrote:

Tim39 wrote:

alexisgreat wrote:

I think for threads like this we should make the OP be able to mod his own thread and delete all posts not having directly to do with the camera (like this one haha).

+ 1!

Agreed Tim, but there are not enough HS50's out for now to even start a thread?

We are going to have to pass the hat and send one to Joms so he can test?...

Wanna donate one? Lol I already sold my HS30 and I am just waiting for some good samaritans out there to give me this camera.

-=[ Joms ]=-

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Tim39 Senior Member • Posts: 2,884
Re: Joms as thread mod

LTZ470 wrote:

Tim39 wrote:

alexisgreat wrote:

I think for threads like this we should make the OP be able to mod his own thread and delete all posts not having directly to do with the camera (like this one haha).

+ 1!

Agreed Tim, but there are not enough HS50's out for now to even start a thread?

Maybe a small one...

We are going to have to pass the hat and send one to Joms so he can test?...

I'm in for my share!  

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Tim

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 17,995
Just curious

Kim Letkeman wrote:

MitchyK7 wrote:

Thankyou Kim, i will incorporate this into the memory banks from now on. When i got my original HS the guy in the shop was explaining the EXR advantage (I hadn't asked him, i wanted the camera anyway, but he insisted). He boiled it all down to pixel binning and the two is better than one mode, and that DR and SN mode used slightly different modes of that. This was in a professional photography shop, not PC World. So that's another one scrubbed off the ever dwindling list of 'reliable sources'. LOL

Thankyou for the information, which i shall read over again a couple of times in the next couple of days to make sure some of it sticks!

I still think resolution over DR has it uses sometimes. But that's just my opinion! LOL

You need to check your findings thoroughly though. I have found no situations in which an HR image looks better than a DR image upsized to match. But I have seem many situations where an HR image looks far worse than a DR image upsized to match.

So when you want a 12mp image on the 1/2" sensor, you are always better off shooting M size and upsizing them in photoshop.

Also remember that, to even come close to matching the quality in the two modes, you need to shoot at the same ISO. And the sensor is tiny, so you will want ISO 100. And because you have to use the same DR as ISO in L mode (no similar restriction in M mode), you end up with images with a lot of blocked shadows and blown highlights in L mode. That is a double whammy ...

Is EXR something which primarily benefits only smaller sensors? I see that Fuji doesn't use it on their larger sensors - is there a reason for that?

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Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 17,995
Re: Joms as thread mod

jcmarfilph wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Tim39 wrote:

alexisgreat wrote:

I think for threads like this we should make the OP be able to mod his own thread and delete all posts not having directly to do with the camera (like this one haha).

+ 1!

Agreed Tim, but there are not enough HS50's out for now to even start a thread?

We are going to have to pass the hat and send one to Joms so he can test?...

Wanna donate one? Lol I already sold my HS30 and I am just waiting for some good samaritans out there to give me this camera.

-=[ Joms ]=-

You seem to have ramped up your schedule. I thought I read that you didn't expect to purchase an HS50 before summer.

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It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

painterdude
painterdude Senior Member • Posts: 2,857
Re: Hardware DR vs Software DR

interesting to note a very clear loss of detail in the RAW samples posted . Humm.. what's up with that ?

Given a choice re these examples I  would pp  the jpeg re  color /contrast maybe a teensy tad of sharpening and NR ..and get a better image???

Is this a case where  the in-cam  sharpening has affected the jpeg and not the RAW?? Dunno.

all the best

g

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alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: Kim

Kim I haven't worked on the RAWs yet, but I will and post them. I did RAW+JPEG so this was strictly based on JPEG.

The shots were actually indoor shots taken by the light of a 60W lamp at the other end of a large room and 80mm that's why the camera selected ISO 3200 for both sizes.......... is it possible in low light, where the camera would select a higher ISO even for M size, it will select the same ISO for L size DR 400? I mean in this case I think it has to, because ISO 3200 is the highest the camera can set automatically, so if it sets it for M size it has to also set it for L size. But Im wondering if the ISO would match if the camera had selected ISO 400,800,1600, etc. for M size since these are all 400 or higher, could L size DR 400 also select the same ISO?

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alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: Hardware DR vs Software DR

I just wanted to say that your articles were excellent- I read two of them about what you're talking about here and they were both near the top on google search (and on yahoo search too.) One was about the HS25 and the other I think was the F550.

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alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: upsizing M images and maximum useful resolution of small sensors

This is some really good advice, Kim- I hadn't thought of upsizing M images....... this should be the next experiment!  I think I know why this may be the case, Kim, that upsized M images would either match or exceed L images...... the higher ISO issue, like you mentioned, but also, each sensor has an ideal resolution, or a maximum possible resolution that is useful, and I think 16 MP exceeds the ideal or maximum useful resolution of a 1/2" sensor.  Which really makes Sony look ridiculous squeezing 20 MP onto an even smaller sensor!

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KJaay Veteran Member • Posts: 6,787
Re: Reviews, hands-on, samples of HS50 Part VI

Why were you going to return it and what changed your mind? What in the long zoom shots is it you don't like? So far the Fuji colors look great, and I have seen some sharp long distant shots. I like to shoot wildlife and landscapes mostly. The four things that you listed are also important to me, thank you for all your help!

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KJ

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KJaay Veteran Member • Posts: 6,787
Re: Reviews, hands-on, samples of HS50 Part VI

MarvinErich wrote:

Nice comparison FZ200 (Panasonic) HS50EXR (Fujifilm Finepix) on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzeFCCPIS-Q

The HS50 looked best to me. Thank you for the link.

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KJ

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OP jcmarfilph Veteran Member • Posts: 7,592
Re: Reviews, hands-on, samples of HS50 Part VI

KJaay wrote:

MarvinErich wrote:

Nice comparison FZ200 (Panasonic) HS50EXR (Fujifilm Finepix) on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzeFCCPIS-Q

The HS50 looked best to me. Thank you for the link.

Colors and tonality, yes HS50 for me. But details and sharpness, I am guessing about the same again although FZ200 will be crushed on the long end unless you buy a 2nd hand 400$ TC.

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-=[ Joms ]=-

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OP jcmarfilph Veteran Member • Posts: 7,592
Re: Joms as thread mod

Midwest wrote:

jcmarfilph wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Tim39 wrote:

alexisgreat wrote:

I think for threads like this we should make the OP be able to mod his own thread and delete all posts not having directly to do with the camera (like this one haha).

+ 1!

Agreed Tim, but there are not enough HS50's out for now to even start a thread?

We are going to have to pass the hat and send one to Joms so he can test?...

Wanna donate one? Lol I already sold my HS30 and I am just waiting for some good samaritans out there to give me this camera.

-=[ Joms ]=-

You seem to have ramped up your schedule. I thought I read that you didn't expect to purchase an HS50 before summer.

Need to sell it fast because the price of the HS30 went up again and it only has few months warranty left.  Now I need to watch the HS50 price closely now. $550 is still not right for me coz  I would rather buy a 599$ X-S1. So it has to go down to $450-499 which is the right range for these pinhead superzooms.

-=[ Joms ]=-

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KJaay Veteran Member • Posts: 6,787
Re: Reviews, hands-on, samples of HS50 Part VI

jcmarfilph wrote:

KJaay wrote:

MarvinErich wrote:

Nice comparison FZ200 (Panasonic) HS50EXR (Fujifilm Finepix) on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzeFCCPIS-Q

The HS50 looked best to me. Thank you for the link.

Colors and tonality, yes HS50 for me. But details and sharpness, I am guessing about the same again although FZ200 will be crushed on the long end unless you buy a 2nd hand 400$ TC.

Yes I agree, and if Fuji even equals the sharpness and details of the Panasonic, the reach of the HS50 wins. You can always put a 400$ TC on the HS50, but we don't need to, it already has the reach!

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KJ

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