So... I finally come to a decision to go with the OM-D... Is there any big hand users out there?

Started Mar 13, 2013 | Questions
Paul De Bra
Paul De Bra Forum Pro • Posts: 12,538
It sounds like you are better off with a dslr.
1

The big advantage of m43 is that everything can be made smaller than with aps-c and certainly a lot smaller than with full frame.

If small is a problem then I would not suggest going with the GH3 which is quite big for an m43 camera but going with a Canon or Nikon or perhaps even Sony dslr.

Glass for a larger camera is not typically more expensive than for m43. It is all a matter of supply and demand and our free economy dictating prices. Everything is expensive but just cheap enough that people still buy it. It has nothing to do with real value or manufacturing cost. The still larger markets for dslr cameras and the competition between the brands keeps the prices relatively low. In m43 this is much less the case, hence prices that are sometimes appear insane.

I went from a dslr to the E-M5 because I really wanted smaller despite the cost. If you don't want smaller then don't go for the m43 format!

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Public pictures at http://debra.zenfolio.com/.

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texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
One short remark
2

NZ Scott wrote:

Compare this with data from a camera that has shot at ISO 800 and not manipulated the data.

There is no such camera. Every camera that outputs JPEG files based on RAW data applies some type of curve to the RAW data in order to generate the JPEG.

Furthermore, I'm pretty certain you don't want all manufacturers to start using the exact same tone curve here. Unless you want one generic look out of every camera, regardless of the make or the model.

And, yet further, I would argue that this is why the digital imaging experts who wrote the ISO standard wrote it to do exactly what it does, and not to do what you (or many others) think it should do. And also why they haven't written an additional standard that does what you (or many others) think it should do. These experts realized that it was desirable to determine some standard values for comparison, but also specifically avoided standardizing every single value (i.e. the tone curve and, by extension, required sensor saturation levels).

They realized that it was necessary to allow each manufacturer plenty of leeway to make design decisions - they wanted to make sure it was still possible to have a Nikon, Canon and Olympus look, rather than "The.One.Generic.Tone.Curve.Look".

And that's what the standard they wrote does. It specifies several measures for determining exposure index while leaving manufacturers plenty of leeway to make their own design decisions. And, as DxO so emphatically says, "this is absolutly legitimate", and the camera manufacturers "are not cheating".

tex

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sgoldswo
sgoldswo Veteran Member • Posts: 5,717
Re: What's weak about the GH3?
1

NZ Scott wrote:

texinwien wrote:

sgoldswo wrote:

texinwien wrote:

It really gets you upset that I own both cameras and don't prefer the one you own doesn't it? That's funny - did no one explain to you it's perfectly fine for you to like one camera and someone to like another?

I don't care how many cameras you own, or which ones are your personal favorites.

Cool, for the record I own an M9, an X-pro1, and X100, an X-E1, a GH3, an E-M5 an E-PL5 and a GX1(IR), whoops, nearly forgot the Contax G2. Oh and occasionally my OH lets me use her RX100. I used to own an E-P3, X10, A100, A700, A900, A55, A77. NEX-5, NEX-5N and NEX-7. I've spent a good bit of time using a 5D II as well (not mine though). Cheers for asking, you are welcome.

Proof that owning a large number of cameras does not one a camera or photography expert make, I reckon

I've been following all this abuse with interest, because I enjoy a good slanging-match, but at this point I feel compelled to step in and take sides with .... with .... with ... with texinwien!

The first reason I'm going to take sides with texinwien, Mr sgoldswo, is that you've just given us a list of 19 cameras that you own or have owned recently and yet your image gallery is full of snapshots. These two nuggets of information suggest to me that your interest in photography leans more towards a gearhead acquisition syndrome than it does towards actually taking photographs. Not that there is anything wrong with that - there are lots of gearheads in these forums who make valuable contributions to various topics - but it does mean that your "real world experience" with high-end cameras might be treated with a grain of salt.

The second reason that I'm going to take sides with texinwien, Mr sgoldswo, is that your arguments have grown increasingly ad hominem. That's low. And not very nice.

Have a wonderful day.

Scott

I do care if you're making demonstrably false statements

What are those then?

It's not clear that you have, as of yet, but evidence is mounting in that direction.

and why is it you take so long writing replies to me old son?

I have other things to do, and answering anti scientists falls well behind most of them, old son.

or claiming that your personal experience has more validity than the results of multiple tests

What a joke - no I claim my experience and that of others who actually use cameras is more valid than pointing a camera at a pointless test scene. Thanks

What a joke is right. Anti science and anti intellectualism are on the rise. At least you can take comfort in being part of a trend, of sorts.

performed by highly trained professionalsm no matter which camera is your personal favorite.

tex

Thanks tex, I love you too

That's just luvly., chap.

tex

Scott, no worries - I shouldn't let him get my back up, but he does, and with the aid of some beers the bile emerges...

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Davidwa Forum Member • Posts: 56
Re: So... I finally come to a decision to go with the OM-D... Is there any big hand users out there?
1

You shold stop worrying about the difference in still image quality between the OM-D and GH3. In the real world I see exhibition prints side by side that were made useing FF, APS-C  & m4/3 and it would be impossible to successfully guess which camera was used on each print.

So the choice is really about ergonomics, both cameras are totally different in their handling and appearance. Only you can pick the one that appeals to you and that you will enjoy using.

There is no doubt that the OM-D gives great image quality, but so many people have commented about its menu system and handling. The GH3 has the same great image quality, unbeatable video and few complaints about its handling or menu system.

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sgoldswo
sgoldswo Veteran Member • Posts: 5,717
Re: What's weak about the GH3?

texinwien wrote:

sgoldswo wrote:

texinwien wrote:

It really gets you upset that I own both cameras and don't prefer the one you own doesn't it? That's funny - did no one explain to you it's perfectly fine for you to like one camera and someone to like another?

I don't care how many cameras you own, or which ones are your personal favorites.

Cool, for the record I own an M9, an X-pro1, and X100, an X-E1, a GH3, an E-M5 an E-PL5 and a GX1(IR), whoops, nearly forgot the Contax G2. Oh and occasionally my OH lets me use her RX100. I used to own an E-P3, X10, A100, A700, A900, A55, A77. NEX-5, NEX-5N and NEX-7. I've spent a good bit of time using a 5D II as well (not mine though). Cheers for asking, you are welcome.

Proof that owning a large number of cameras does not one a camera or photography expert make, I reckon

Just out of curiosity, which cameras have you owned other than the E-M5? I can see a canon on your kit list but I know mine wasn't up to date.

I do care if you're making demonstrably false statements

What are those then?

It's not clear that you have, as of yet, but evidence is mounting in that direction.

Sorry, what evidence?

and why is it you take so long writing replies to me old son?

I have other things to do, and answering anti scientists falls well behind most of them, old son.

That was more of a comment on the length of your replies... By the way, how many journal articles have you managed in leading international academic journals in the last month old son? I'll put my hand up and say I've only managed one. I'm not that prolific though.

Be careful before calling people anti intellectual anti scientists old son, people might just not like your tests (or tone for that matter).

or claiming that your personal experience has more validity than the results of multiple tests

What a joke - no I claim my experience and that of others who actually use cameras is more valid than pointing a camera at a pointless test scene. Thanks

What a joke is right. Anti science and anti intellectualism are on the rise. At least you can take comfort in being part of a trend, of sorts.

See above.

performed by highly trained professionalsm no matter which camera is your personal favorite.

tex

Thanks tex, I love you too

That's just luvly., chap.

Gosh, what a love in

tex

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NZ Scott
NZ Scott Veteran Member • Posts: 4,779
Re: What's weak about the GH3?
1

sgoldswo wrote:


Scott, no worries - I shouldn't let him get my back up, but he does, and with the aid of some beers the bile emerges...

Of course - it's Friday. I've got beer in me too.

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JamieTux Veteran Member • Posts: 4,079
Re: So... I finally come to a decision to go with the OM-D... Is there any big hand users out there?
1

Davidwa wrote:

You shold stop worrying about the difference in still image quality between the OM-D and GH3. In the real world I see exhibition prints side by side that were made useing FF, APS-C & m4/3 and it would be impossible to successfully guess which camera was used on each print.

I'm not worries about the difference in image quality - I've sold my FF gear and moved to the OM-D for paid work....

I wanted smaller, the GH3 wasn't available and I used the OM-D for a couple of days and loved it.

So the choice is really about ergonomics, both cameras are totally different in their handling and appearance. Only you can pick the one that appeals to you and that you will enjoy using.

There is no doubt that the OM-D gives great image quality, but so many people have commented about its menu system and handling. The GH3 has the same great image quality, unbeatable video and few complaints about its handling or menu system.

I said that I thought the handling was fine - even with gloves - I also like the fact that I can change it by adding the 2 stage grip, I'm also fine with the menu system - but I don't understand why things like focus priority aren't in the AF option, once you've learnt them it's OK.  The GH3 is a bulkier camera though and doesn't have IBIS - I don't mind having one larger one that uses the same lenses as long as the tracking AF is approaching SLR levels - if the much rumoured new Olympus camera does that then I have my 2 camera set up sorted for a while

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texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
Re: What's weak about the GH3?

sgoldswo wrote:

texinwien wrote:

sgoldswo wrote:

texinwien wrote:

It really gets you upset that I own both cameras and don't prefer the one you own doesn't it? That's funny - did no one explain to you it's perfectly fine for you to like one camera and someone to like another?

I don't care how many cameras you own, or which ones are your personal favorites.

Cool, for the record I own an M9, an X-pro1, and X100, an X-E1, a GH3, an E-M5 an E-PL5 and a GX1(IR), whoops, nearly forgot the Contax G2. Oh and occasionally my OH lets me use her RX100. I used to own an E-P3, X10, A100, A700, A900, A55, A77. NEX-5, NEX-5N and NEX-7. I've spent a good bit of time using a 5D II as well (not mine though). Cheers for asking, you are welcome.

Proof that owning a large number of cameras does not one a camera or photography expert make, I reckon

Just out of curiosity, which cameras have you owned other than the E-M5? I can see a canon on your kit list but I know mine wasn't up to date.

I'm sorry, how is that relevant to this discussion? Are you playing primary school "my dad's bigger than yours" games now?

I do care if you're making demonstrably false statements

What are those then?

It's not clear that you have, as of yet, but evidence is mounting in that direction.

Sorry, what evidence?

  1. The www.optyczne.pl review, in which the reviewers reported that the E-M5 has a significant and measured advantage in resolution in comparison to the GH3
  2. Imaging-Resource.com RAW files that show visibly higher resolution in test images taken by the E-M5
  3. DPReview RAW files that do the same

and why is it you take so long writing replies to me old son?

I have other things to do, and answering anti scientists falls well behind most of them, old son.

That was more of a comment on the length of your replies...

Ah, perhaps brush up on your English skills and try to write what you mean, old son.

By the way, how many journal articles have you managed in leading international academic journals in the last month old son? I'll put my hand up and say I've only managed one. I'm not that prolific though.

Hah, I love running into academics who resort to ad hominem as if it wasn't a logical fallacy.

Be careful before calling people anti intellectual anti scientists old son, people might just not like your tests (or tone for that matter).

Is that a threat, or what? How's your tone, by the way, Mr. published ad hominem?

or claiming that your personal experience has more validity than the results of multiple tests

What a joke - no I claim my experience and that of others who actually use cameras is more valid than pointing a camera at a pointless test scene. Thanks

What a joke is right. Anti science and anti intellectualism are on the rise. At least you can take comfort in being part of a trend, of sorts.

See above.

I'd prefer to look away. The spectacle of your ignorance and pettiness is rather ugly.

tex

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sgoldswo
sgoldswo Veteran Member • Posts: 5,717
Lets get this straight
1

Lets got back to the begining here. I apologise if you find me impolite Anders because you've been nothing but polite and helpful to me in my time on this forum.

The rest of this isn't aimed directly at you.

I absolutely accept that the tests posted here and elsewhere have results which would point toward one conclusion. Let me be explicit that I feel the results posted in respect of the GH3 (and other cameras for that matter) are unrepresentative of actual results (to be clear, I don't limit my criticism to test scenes - the actually pictures posted are woeful too in many cases - I couldn't believe the images posted in a leading sites review of the X100S yesterday) and therefore I'm querying their value. That doesn't mean I'm claiming that the images tex posted on his thread the other week were falsified. I just query their value in making decisions about a camera purchase. I have similar views about DXO, which tests what it tests, but shouldn't really be seen as the basis for a game of top trumps and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm not sure, why, when I query whether test results are valuable, I'm then subject to (numerous) replies pointing out to me that my views (and lets be honest, they are views) are wrong, false, incorrect. This is apparently on the basis that user experience is less valuable than these "rigorous" tests. This hasn't just happened to me but as far as I can see it, many people who post anything that goes outside of a fairly narrow world view of one particular poster. Most people lose interest in replying to such attacks, because they are a bore. That's why debates about equivalence provoke most people (myself included) to want to "turn the channel".

Here is the thing, everytime people post something that you disagree with, it's fine to reply, but don't turn it into some kind of crusade for truth. Personally I think the central message of such attacks seems to come across as being (at best) a little patronising and brand specific with the inevitable result that it reads like brand specific fanboyism of the worst sort with an attempt to back it up with "facts" (which in all honesty I see as just another point of view).

Now, I perfectly well accept that if you take my position to extremes, it ends up in a nonsense. Because no test would ever be valid. But anyone who is familiar with the scientific method would accept (I think) that if the real world doesn't match an experiment that there is something wrong with the experiment rather than the real world, which is all I'm saying. Individual posters here may disagree, and I'm fine with that, but DPR forums aren't a quest for the truth so if people could cease treating them as such I would be grateful. That's all.

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sgoldswo
sgoldswo Veteran Member • Posts: 5,717
Re: What's weak about the GH3?

Tex: Before you troll some more have a read of "Let's Get this Straight"

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texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
Re: What's weak about the GH3?

sgoldswo wrote:

Tex: Before you troll some more have a read of "Let's Get this Straight"

First off, I don't troll.

Second off, searching for "Let's Get this Straight" in google returns a number of different results, none of which are clearly related to our discussion.

If you'd like to provide a link to the book or article you're recommending, I'll be happy to take a look at the link and go from there.

tex

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: E-M5 ergonomics are not great

NZ Scott wrote:

Anders W wrote:

NZ Scott wrote:

Anders W wrote:

NZ Scott wrote:


You didn't answer the question of what norm or standard the phrase "should be" implicitly refers to.

I think I did below.

I don't think you did. "Should be" implies a norm that the manufacturer are obliged to follow. There is no such thing when it comes to the DxOMark "measured ISOs". The only norm the manufacturers are obliged to follow concern OOC jpegs, not RAWs.

When it comes to the rest of your response below, I have already dealt with that in my previous reply to you (the one in which I commented on what you said in a post meant for texinwien).

We might have to agree to disagree on this one.

It's true that manufacturers have not agreed upon a norm for ISO.

They have agreed to follow an ISO norm that applies to jpegs.

This is one reason why we are seeing ISO-creep. However, it is still possible to compare cameras based on the way they meter and record data from a scene. It simply means that, instead of comparing the data with a norm, we compare it with data from other cameras.

I don't see anything in your comments that offers an objection to this.

I don't object to comparing cameras. It's just that with respect to what you are talking about, the difference between camera ISO and DxOMark "measured ISO", there is nothing better about cameras where this difference is small than about those where it is larger. Hence, there is no "should be" involved. Let me know if you still think there is, and if so on what grounds.

I don't understand your second sentence because it is ungrammatic. Please rephrase.

It's just that there is nothing better about cameras where the difference between camera ISO and DxOMark "measured ISO" is small than about those where it is larger.

1) One stop worse when compared with other cameras. For example, if you set a new OMD and an old Nikon D40 to ISO 800, the D40 shoots at ISO 705 and the OMD at ISO 394. That's not quite a full stop in difference, but it's close.

When you say the D40 is shooting at ISO 705 and the OMD at ISO 394, what exactly do you think those numbers mean? And in what sense is it worse to be shooting at 394 than at 705?

It's worse to be shooting at ISO 394 because the data needs to be pushed in order for the exposure to look normal. This means that it can't be pushed much more.

2) One stop worse when using metering guidelines. For example, the "sunny 16" guideline.

Are you suggesting that the E-M5 meter works differently with the camera set to for example ISO 800 than, say, the meter of the D40 with that camera set to the same ISO? If not, what are you suggesting?

I'm not suggesting the meter works differently. I'm suggesting that the camera deliberately underexposes and then pushes the data to make it appear correctly exposed. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but it means that Raw data from that camera will not be as useful as Raw data from the other camera, because Raw data from the other camera has not already been pushed.

I'm thus far not too sure what to think about that. I'm hoping the full test on the GH3 comes out fairly soon. I'm thinking about buying glass first and then the camera... Hoping to get a little more info- news and maybe run into a price point as well Enjoying all of the feedback and reading. Thanks to all!! :?)

tex

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Lets get this straight

sgoldswo wrote:


Lets got back to the begining here. I apologise if you find me impolite Anders because you've been nothing but polite and helpful to me in my time on this forum.

The rest of this isn't aimed directly at you.

What do you mean by "isn't aimed directly at you"? That it's aimed at others? That it's aimed at me as well as others?

I honestly don't see much of a relationship between what you say below and what I said in the post to which this is, in a technical forum-thread sense, a reply or to what I said earlier in the exchange between you and me in this thread. If you think differently, please spell out the connection.

I absolutely accept that the tests posted here and elsewhere have results which would point toward one conclusion. Let me be explicit that I feel the results posted in respect of the GH3 (and other cameras for that matter) are unrepresentative of actual results (to be clear, I don't limit my criticism to test scenes - the actually pictures posted are woeful too in many cases - I couldn't believe the images posted in a leading sites review of the X100S yesterday) and therefore I'm querying their value. That doesn't mean I'm claiming that the images tex posted on his thread the other week were falsified. I just query their value in making decisions about a camera purchase. I have similar views about DXO, which tests what it tests, but shouldn't really be seen as the basis for a game of top trumps and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm not sure, why, when I query whether test results are valuable, I'm then subject to (numerous) replies pointing out to me that my views (and lets be honest, they are views) are wrong, false, incorrect. This is apparently on the basis that user experience is less valuable than these "rigorous" tests. This hasn't just happened to me but as far as I can see it, many people who post anything that goes outside of a fairly narrow world view of one particular poster. Most people lose interest in replying to such attacks, because they are a bore. That's why debates about equivalence provoke most people (myself included) to want to "turn the channel".

Here is the thing, everytime people post something that you disagree with, it's fine to reply, but don't turn it into some kind of crusade for truth. Personally I think the central message of such attacks seems to come across as being (at best) a little patronising and brand specific with the inevitable result that it reads like brand specific fanboyism of the worst sort with an attempt to back it up with "facts" (which in all honesty I see as just another point of view).

Now, I perfectly well accept that if you take my position to extremes, it ends up in a nonsense. Because no test would ever be valid. But anyone who is familiar with the scientific method would accept (I think) that if the real world doesn't match an experiment that there is something wrong with the experiment rather than the real world, which is all I'm saying. Individual posters here may disagree, and I'm fine with that, but DPR forums aren't a quest for the truth so if people could cease treating them as such I would be grateful. That's all.

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texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
Re: E-M5 ergonomics are not great
2

Randell Tober wrote:

I've received some feedback claiming that the OM-D is a full stop off from other cameras in the ISO tests- that's why it looks so much better in comparison... I'm thus far not too sure what to think about that.

Again, it's complete bunk, and I'm only bringing it up again because it's being discussed right now in another forum, where a DPReview employee is confirming that the ISO cheating myth is just that - a myth.

Might be interesting for you or anyone else interested in the topic, since the discussion is unfolding at this moment, and since at least one DPReview employee has gotten involved, and has given an unequivocal statement on the matter.

tex

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texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
:D Missed It
1

I didn't see your reply entitled "Let's get this straight" in this thread at first.

I have a number of issues with statements you have made regarding the GH3 in comparison to the E-M5 - this point still stands, but, in the interest of maintaining civility, I will not continue to pursue those points at this time.

I'll let bygones be bygones as far as any ad hominemattacks, and we shall see how the evidence shakes out when the experts have spoken

Ciao!

tex

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,398
+1
1

Paul De Bra wrote:

I went from a dslr to the E-M5 because I really wanted smaller despite the cost. If you don't want smaller then don't go for the m43 format!

Bingo....

sgoldswo
sgoldswo Veteran Member • Posts: 5,717
Re: :D Missed It
1

texinwien wrote:

I didn't see your reply entitled "Let's get this straight" in this thread at first.

I have a number of issues with statements you have made regarding the GH3 in comparison to the E-M5 - this point still stands, but, in the interest of maintaining civility, I will not continue to pursue those points at this time.

I'll let bygones be bygones as far as any ad hominemattacks, and we shall see how the evidence shakes out when the experts have spoken

Ciao!

tex

I'll take that

Have a good one

Simon

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Randell Tober
OP Randell Tober Regular Member • Posts: 248
Re: So... I finally come to a decision to go with the OM-D... Is there any big hand users out there?

JamieTux wrote:

Davidwa wrote:

You shold stop worrying about the difference in still image quality between the OM-D and GH3. In the real world I see exhibition prints side by side that were made useing FF, APS-C & m4/3 and it would be impossible to successfully guess which camera was used on each print.

I'm not worries about the difference in image quality - I've sold my FF gear and moved to the OM-D for paid work....

I wanted smaller, the GH3 wasn't available and I used the OM-D for a couple of days and loved it.

So the choice is really about ergonomics, both cameras are totally different in their handling and appearance. Only you can pick the one that appeals to you and that you will enjoy using.

There is no doubt that the OM-D gives great image quality, but so many people have commented about its menu system and handling. The GH3 has the same great image quality, unbeatable video and few complaints about its handling or menu system.

I said that I thought the handling was fine - even with gloves - I also like the fact that I can change it by adding the 2 stage grip, I'm also fine with the menu system - but I don't understand why things like focus priority aren't in the AF option, once you've learnt them it's OK. The GH3 is a bulkier camera though and doesn't have IBIS - I don't mind having one larger one that uses the same lenses as long as the tracking AF is approaching SLR levels - if the much rumoured new Olympus camera does that then I have my 2 camera set up sorted for a while

Thanks... So I understand that no manner which 4/3 I select, it will be trailing behind all dslr's in the auto focusing/tracking category? The size of the camera doesn’t make much of a difference to me. I’m going more for the IQ. Options and affordability vs. DSLR with $2k glass. I sometimes wonder if I’m making a mistake turning away from the dslr’s. Even though I can’t- won’t spend $2k on a lense again, maybe I should consider lesser options. Canon 2.8 glass spoiled me Thank God I didn’t try out the 2.0!

Thanks again to all- for all of the advice and… Very interesting, sometimes amusing and… but enjoying it all.

 Randell Tober's gear list:Randell Tober's gear list
Canon PowerShot SD4000 IS Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm F1.8G Nikon AF Nikkor 24-85mm f/2.8-4D IF Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +2 more
JRSchmid
JRSchmid New Member • Posts: 17
Re: So... I finally come to a decision to go with the OM-D... Is there any big hand users out there?

I'm 1,92m with correspondingly large hands and with the first part of the grip all is fine. Of course it's no E-1, but then it's not as heavy as an E-1 either. Can't have everything at once

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Randell Tober
OP Randell Tober Regular Member • Posts: 248
Re: It sounds like you are better off with a dslr.

Thanks... So loving the versatility- features for say the OM-D, wanting a reasonably priced good assortment of glass in the 2.8 or so range, which dslr/dslr's would you be looking at? Low light and speed is what I'm after? Thanks again

 Randell Tober's gear list:Randell Tober's gear list
Canon PowerShot SD4000 IS Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm F1.8G Nikon AF Nikkor 24-85mm f/2.8-4D IF Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +2 more
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