If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

Started Mar 8, 2013 | Discussions
Ariston Senior Member • Posts: 2,401
Re: 28mm and no AA, check your shooting habits

Daniel Lauring wrote:

rhlpetrus wrote:

The sensor is the D7000's, which I still think is the best sensor around for APS_C in overal quality.

Actually not. If you consult DXO you'll see the new Sony and Toshiba sensors used in the D5200 and D7100 are the best APS-C sensors out there right now. They have the best dynamic range and resolution. IMHO, Nikon isn't serious about mirrorless until they show they are willing to put in the best they have into the effort. The A is a half hearted, half baked attempt. Without the best sensor and professional controls, it is too expensive for amateurs and too limiting for professionals. Typical of Nikon and Canon in the mirrorless arena...too little, too late. Those to giants of the photography world risk missing the boat on professional mirrorless because they either don't take it seriously, or are trying to protect their SLR cash cow. They should take a lesson from Kodak (and how it concentrated on it's film cash cow.)

well I don't think that the Sony sensor and Toshiba are the best. at low ISO, the best seems to be the Foveon sensor if you talk about DR and resolution. the Sony and Toshiba sensor though are best with High ISO results.

I do agree that it is frustrating to see that these two camera giants are missing a lot. but that's fine since we have a lot of other better option and less stubborn camera manufacturers.

Ariston Senior Member • Posts: 2,401
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

I'm a photographer as well but I wasn't really offended by the poster's claim of being a photographer. I did however understood what he/she meant the need for him/her to use a VF for his/her work as a photographer and the potential reasons why he/she said so. and I don't believe that the poster is a totally clueless individual that is needed to be told what others could accomplish without a viewfinder, I think he/she is pretty clear about that. to me, your reply is obnoxious and is more insulting towards other people and somehow demeans the credibility of others. anyway, you might want to check out this other person's portfolio first before leaving some sarcastic remarks next time.

marike6 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,088
Nonsense...
2

InTheMist wrote:

This Nikon fan thinks that the X100s stomps the Coolpix A in every conceivable manner other than size.

No offense, but that statement is utter nonsense.

I'm guessing you've never worked with X-Trans RAW files in Lightroom because if you had you wouldn't be talking about "stomping". A Nikon DSLR shooter who has a specific and successful workflow, but with the X100s needs to go messing around with Silkypix or Capture One just to get Fujifilm RAW files to look anywhere near as detailed as 8-bit JPEGs, has certainly not "conceived" of all the pros and cons of each camera.

And I'm also guessing you are forgetting that the D7000 sensor, with huge 14 EV DR similar to the D800, is one of the very best APS-C sensors in the history of photography.  And removing the AA-filter is only going to make it better.

I'm a Nikon shooter and a fan of the both X100s as well, but to say that the X100 stomps the Coolpix A in every conceivable manner but size is simply not accurate AT ALL. If fact there is a good argument to be made the a camera with the D7000 sensor without an AA-filter would outresolve and outperform the Fujifilm X100s and it would clearly provide a much simpler, more straightforward workflow producing RAW-to-JPEG conversions that would in many ways would "stomp" the X100s files.

 marike6's gear list:marike6's gear list
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AngryCorgi
AngryCorgi Contributing Member • Posts: 916
Re: 28mm and no AA, check your shooting habits

Ariston wrote:

Daniel Lauring wrote:

rhlpetrus wrote:

The sensor is the D7000's, which I still think is the best sensor around for APS_C in overal quality.

Actually not. If you consult DXO you'll see the new Sony and Toshiba sensors used in the D5200 and D7100 are the best APS-C sensors out there right now. They have the best dynamic range and resolution. IMHO, Nikon isn't serious about mirrorless until they show they are willing to put in the best they have into the effort. The A is a half hearted, half baked attempt. Without the best sensor and professional controls, it is too expensive for amateurs and too limiting for professionals. Typical of Nikon and Canon in the mirrorless arena...too little, too late. Those to giants of the photography world risk missing the boat on professional mirrorless because they either don't take it seriously, or are trying to protect their SLR cash cow. They should take a lesson from Kodak (and how it concentrated on it's film cash cow.)

well I don't think that the Sony sensor and Toshiba are the best. at low ISO, the best seems to be the Foveon sensor if you talk about DR and resolution. the Sony and Toshiba sensor though are best with High ISO results.

I do agree that it is frustrating to see that these two camera giants are missing a lot. but that's fine since we have a lot of other better option and less stubborn camera manufacturers.

The DR of foveon sensors is quite poor in comparison to modern CMOS bayer sensors.  You can google foveon vs bayer and see that the foveon loses in DR even to older Canon CMOS sensors which are among the worst bayer APS-C CMOS sensors in terms of DR.  Color-independent resolution is foveon's game, and that is where it excels.

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Ariston Senior Member • Posts: 2,401
Re: 28mm and no AA, check your shooting habits

AngryCorgi wrote:

Ariston wrote:

Daniel Lauring wrote:

rhlpetrus wrote:

The sensor is the D7000's, which I still think is the best sensor around for APS_C in overal quality.

Actually not. If you consult DXO you'll see the new Sony and Toshiba sensors used in the D5200 and D7100 are the best APS-C sensors out there right now. They have the best dynamic range and resolution. IMHO, Nikon isn't serious about mirrorless until they show they are willing to put in the best they have into the effort. The A is a half hearted, half baked attempt. Without the best sensor and professional controls, it is too expensive for amateurs and too limiting for professionals. Typical of Nikon and Canon in the mirrorless arena...too little, too late. Those to giants of the photography world risk missing the boat on professional mirrorless because they either don't take it seriously, or are trying to protect their SLR cash cow. They should take a lesson from Kodak (and how it concentrated on it's film cash cow.)

well I don't think that the Sony sensor and Toshiba are the best. at low ISO, the best seems to be the Foveon sensor if you talk about DR and resolution. the Sony and Toshiba sensor though are best with High ISO results.

I do agree that it is frustrating to see that these two camera giants are missing a lot. but that's fine since we have a lot of other better option and less stubborn camera manufacturers.

The DR of foveon sensors is quite poor in comparison to modern CMOS bayer sensors. You can google foveon vs bayer and see that the foveon loses in DR even to older Canon CMOS sensors which are among the worst bayer APS-C CMOS sensors in terms of DR. Color-independent resolution is foveon's game, and that is where it excels.

is it only resolution? because from what I see, the DR looks to be impressive at base ISO. anyway, I'll try to find out more about it. I'm being lent with a DP2 Merrill next week and I'll see how the DR really is. but so far, I'm impressed with the landscape results available.

Daniel Lauring
Daniel Lauring Veteran Member • Posts: 9,343
Re: 28mm and no AA, check your shooting habits

Ariston wrote:

well I don't think that the Sony sensor and Toshiba are the best. at low ISO, the best seems to be the Foveon sensor if you talk about DR and resolution. the Sony and Toshiba sensor though are best with High ISO results.

Two points.  1.  Nikon doesn't currently use the Foveon sensor.  It does use the Sony and Toshiba sensors in it's 3200, 5200 and 7100 SLR's.  2.  The Sony and Toshiba sensors have better dynamic range and arguably slightly better resolution than the Foveon.  The Sony and Toshiba sensors have much, much better high ISO performance.  The only advantage the Foveon has is the lack of color Moire (though it suffers from other Moire.)

P.S.  I've been wanting to try a DP2M and was tempted by the recent price drop, but not tempted enough.

JSTB Regular Member • Posts: 262
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

LTZ470 wrote:

Coolpix A is way smaller, perfect for landscapes…should be super sharp at f/4…combined with RX1…lethal combo...

"lethal???!!!!!!???"  Don't you think that's a just wee bit of hyperbole?  Admittedly I prefer the X100S because of the viewfinder.  However I do shoot Nikon FF as well as an X Pro and X100  and think the Nikon looks like a very nice camera that would be better priced around $750 because of the lack of a viewfinder.  I'm sure they will be selling about that price this time next year used  and perhaps I will get one then.  Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Sony, Pentax, Olympus, they are all very good cameras.  None of them are going to make you a better photographer.  That's about compostion and creativity.

Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,580
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

Ariston wrote:

I'm a photographer as well but I wasn't really offended by the poster's claim of being a photographer. I did however understood what he/she meant the need for him/her to use a VF for his/her work as a photographer and the potential reasons why he/she said so. and I don't believe that the poster is a totally clueless individual that is needed to be told what others could accomplish without a viewfinder, I think he/she is pretty clear about that. to me, your reply is obnoxious and is more insulting towards other people and somehow demeans the credibility of others. anyway, you might want to check out this other person's portfolio first before leaving some sarcastic remarks next time.

I went back and read the post I took offense to - this is it:

"I'm a photographer ... and therefore would not even consider a camera without a viewfinder !

I did not say you can't take great pictures with a "point n shoot", but again ... as a photographer ... NO ... plenty of reasons !"

I suppose under the most generous reading of this, you could be right that he's just saying that for HIM, as a photographer, he'd always want a viewfinder. I find it very difficult to read it that way. The tone of "I'm a photograper...and therefore (emphasis added) would not even consider a camera without a viewfinder"! And ends with an exclamation mark. I can't read that as anything other than saying that anyone who's an actual photographer would never consider a camera without a viewfinder. And the way he emphasizes that point again in the next paragraph reinforces that impression.

Now look, Velu is from Belgium - English may not be his first language. This may be a simple misunderstanding based on a language barrier, and if so, I'm in the wrong. If I'm mis-reading his intent, I will apologize to him all day long.  So, Velu, if you're still reading, please clarify your intent if I've mis-represented it. If that's the case, I owe you an apology.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if confronted by strong language that I believe insults an entire class of photographers based on not sharing a personal preference, I'll use sarcasm and any other rhetorical tool to take that on directly and strongly.

As to your suggestion that I check out his portfolio, I find that totally irrelevant. I'm not questioning his bona-fides as a photographer. My first assumption is that most of the people who post regularly around here are pretty good photographers and will change that opinion only when proven wrong, and won't insult their photography even then because we're all just trying to get better. But the bottom line is if I'm reading his statement correctly, I don't care if he's the second incarnation of Henri Cartier-Bresson and Ansel Adams combined, I'll still take on what I read as a very demeaning statement towards those photographers who choose a different method than his. I've NEVER suggested, and never would, that people shouldn't use a viewfinder or that it makes THEM lesser photographers. I'm totally open to anyone's personal preference about how to make good images. They can use huge DSLRs or iPhones or anything in between - I don't care - a good photographer is a good photographer, and there are a lot of them! I was reacting to my interpretation of his statement as insulting to everyone who might choose to buy a camera without a viewfinder by suggesting they're not photographers. If I mis-interpreted his intent, as I said, I apologize and will apologize to him personally. But if I interpreted his post correctly, I stand by every word, sarcastic as they were.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,580
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

JSTB wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Coolpix A is way smaller, perfect for landscapes…should be super sharp at f/4…combined with RX1…lethal combo...

"lethal???!!!!!!???" Don't you think that's a just wee bit of hyperbole? Admittedly I prefer the X100S because of the viewfinder. However I do shoot Nikon FF as well as an X Pro and X100 and think the Nikon looks like a very nice camera that would be better priced around $750 because of the lack of a viewfinder. I'm sure they will be selling about that price this time next year used and perhaps I will get one then. Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Sony, Pentax, Olympus, they are all very good cameras. None of them are going to make you a better photographer. That's about compostion and creativity.

Its just about different priorities. If a viewfinder is a big priority to you, you would think a camera with one would be worth more than a camera without one and would be willing to pay more. If, OTOH, you value size and discreteness and the wider angle more than you value a viewfinder, you might think the Coolpix A is a better camera and worth more than a camera with a great viewfinder that sacrificed small size because of it and had too narrow a focal length besides.

I'm not suggesting either of these positions is RIGHT or WRONG. I love both kinds of cameras - my X-Pro is possibly my favorite camera but I like my GXR-28 (without a viewfinder) just as much but for very different reasons. I would like the Coolpix A more than the X100s because for a fixed lens camera, I greatly prefer 28mm to 35, value small size a lot, and don't care much about a viewfinder for lenses with this wider field of view. Whether I'm going to like it more than the GXR-28 is the more critical question to me and will determine whether I buy it or not. I had an X100 - I liked it except I never learned to love the focal length. The X-Pro gives me multiple focal lengths, some I use almost always with the viewfinder, some not so much. 28mm I can pretty much frame without a viewfinder or even a rear screen - its in my system down to the level of DNA, almost.  So we all value different things and would pay more or less for a camera accordingly, no?

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

Ariston Senior Member • Posts: 2,401
Re: 28mm and no AA, check your shooting habits

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Ariston wrote:

well I don't think that the Sony sensor and Toshiba are the best. at low ISO, the best seems to be the Foveon sensor if you talk about DR and resolution. the Sony and Toshiba sensor though are best with High ISO results.

Two points. 1. Nikon doesn't currently use the Foveon sensor. It does use the Sony and Toshiba sensors in it's 3200, 5200 and 7100 SLR's. 2. The Sony and Toshiba sensors have better dynamic range and arguably slightly better resolution than the Foveon. The Sony and Toshiba sensors have much, much better high ISO performance. The only advantage the Foveon has is the lack of color Moire (though it suffers from other Moire.)

P.S. I've been wanting to try a DP2M and was tempted by the recent price drop, but not tempted enough.

thanks. I'm aware that Nikon is not using a Foveon sensor but a Sony for the D800 (which I have).  of course there is not argument that the advantage is at High ISO. one of the reasons that I got curious about the DP2M is the perceived detail and resolution at supposedly 36MP? the DR is only a small part of it but so far from what I see, it does look to be impressive even by not looking at the numbers. from what I think, it excels with the highlights since Foveon seems to excel with available broader spectrum of light as opposed to the Sony which excels in the shadows. I think this makes sense.

anyway, the recent price drop is really tempting but quite gives me some mixed feelings as to possible limitations that comes with it. I wouldn't mind getting it immediately for $300 though.

the Coolpix A however is a complete pass for me. just too limiting and too much for what Nikon is asking it for.

Ariston Senior Member • Posts: 2,401
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

I'm not sure why it is difficult for you to issue an apology especially if you are not even being asked to give one. to be honest, it takes a bigger man to acknowledge a mistake whether if it's small or big, it's not a big deal. it's not like you are going to lose any credibility or a leg by doing so nor does it gain you any respect. it's alright if you can't give one since nobody is forcing you to do so. just saying that people would speak to you more openly and with respect rather than with intimidation and arrogance. again, this depends on you whether what you want others to see or perceive. politeness never get smirked on.

Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,580
Re: Once again, nice photographs Ray

Mark Weston wrote:

I sold my X100 in anticipation of the X100S. I currently use my NEX-7 for most of my photography. It has a wonderful EVF, but I only use it about 50% of the time. I also shoot from the waist with the flip out screen. For me, I would want at least one or the other (VF or flip screen). I also have a S90 that gets little use. Of these three cameras, the X100 is the greatest pleasure to use for me. The OVF, the manual dials, the overall feel of the X100 is perfect to me. I find that to be at least as important as the photographs I get from these cameras. Having said all of that, the Coolpix A looks interesting for the quality that they seemed to have packed into such a small body. I just do not think, I will be adding it to my collection at or near the announced price.

http://www.markwweston.com

I basically agree Mark. I loved the experience of shooting with the X100 also, except for a couple of details which I learned to live with. But I never loved the focal length. That's why I got the X-Pro, which I like on every level except that the OVF isn't quite as bright and wonderful as the X-100's - there's just too much going on in there to make it work with multiple focal lengths and I'm sure that's what affects the brightness (and the ability to include a diopter adjustment). So, having the X-Pro, the X100 became much less appealing and I sold it and don't anticipate buying an X100s. Although I'll get to shoot with one for a month and if I like it enough with the WCL-100, I could change my mind.

As far as wanting either a viewfinder or a flip up screen, I can understand that. I shoot a lot from the waist (or at least belly) and bought a Nex 5 and later an EPL3 and OMD largely for the flip out screens. But what I've found over time is I now very rarely end up looking at the screen if I'm shooting in the 24-28mm focal range. I know 28mm framing so well, I do it just about as well blind as I do with the screen and I can be both more observant and more discrete with my eyes and attitude when I'm not looking down all the time. And if I can do that with 28, I can do it with 24, which is more forgiving. I occasionally miss a shot badly because of this, but much more rarely than I'd ever have thought. So, for these limited focal lengths, I'm actually fine without either a flip up screen or a viewfinder. When I'm shooting at portrait length or longer, I need something I can frame and focus precisely with and I also need some way to hold the camera steady and either letting the strap stabilize it at my belly (using the screen) or letting my eye stabilize it with a viewfinder is pretty much a must for me too. For wider stuff, not so much, though, personally.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

Daniel Lauring
Daniel Lauring Veteran Member • Posts: 9,343
Re: 28mm and no AA, check your shooting habits

Ariston wrote:

thanks. I'm aware that Nikon is not using a Foveon sensor but a Sony for the D800 (which I have). of course there is not argument that the advantage is at High ISO. one of the reasons that I got curious about the DP2M is the perceived detail and resolution at supposedly 36MP? the DR is only a small part of it but so far from what I see, it does look to be impressive even by not looking at the numbers. from what I think, it excels with the highlights since Foveon seems to excel with available broader spectrum of light as opposed to the Sony which excels in the shadows. I think this makes sense.

anyway, the recent price drop is really tempting but quite gives me some mixed feelings as to possible limitations that comes with it. I wouldn't mind getting it immediately for $300 though.

36Mp was Sigma's original claim, since then people have proven the actual "Bayer" equivalent is closer to 24-26Mp and Sigma has even adopted that number in some literature.

I would love to try a DP2M but my price point is closer to yours...maybe $450 max...not the $800 it is currently discounted to.  I've been really impressed with the sharpness and detail and lack of color smearing in Foveon photos.

Huff on the DP2M

travelinbri_74
travelinbri_74 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,448
Re: 28mm and no AA, check your shooting habits

Nikon seems like a landscaper pocket camera which to me most directly competes with the sigma DP1M while the fuji seems to be a people and street camera. If the Nikon is crazy sharp I might pick one up for a pocket landscape camera.
TBri

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Ricoh GR III Sony a7R III Sony FE 16-35mm F2.8 Sony FE 24-105mm F4 Sony FE 90mm F2.8 macro +2 more
Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,580
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

Ariston wrote:

I'm not sure why it is difficult for you to issue an apology especially if you are not even being asked to give one. to be honest, it takes a bigger man to acknowledge a mistake whether if it's small or big, it's not a big deal. it's not like you are going to lose any credibility or a leg by doing so nor does it gain you any respect. it's alright if you can't give one since nobody is forcing you to do so. just saying that people would speak to you more openly and with respect rather than with intimidation and arrogance. again, this depends on you whether what you want others to see or perceive. politeness never get smirked on.

Well, I've already apologized conditionally and if Velu tells me I mis-interpreted his post, I'll be very happy to remove the condition and apologize vociferously and publicly. I don't have any problem apologizing when I've been wrong, and I'm wrong plenty - I may have been wrong here and hope to find out whether I was nor not. I tend to live by the philosophy that I'd rather ask forgiveness than permission, so I sometimes have to do just that. 

But if I interpreted Velu's post correctly I don't believe I have anything to apologize for. And as happy as I am to apologize when I'm wrong, I'm not in the habit of doing it when I'm not. So, I've apologized as much as I'm going to until and unless Velu wants to chime in and either confirm or deny my interpretation of what he wrote.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

Ariston Senior Member • Posts: 2,401
Re: 28mm and no AA, check your shooting habits

travelinbri_74 wrote:

Nikon seems like a landscaper pocket camera which to me most directly competes with the sigma DP1M while the fuji seems to be a people and street camera. If the Nikon is crazy sharp I might pick one up for a pocket landscape camera.
TBri

it would appear that way although I doubt that it would be as good as the DP1m. my impression about the Coolpix A would be something like the D7000 without a filter. I'm just not sure if the 16MP filterless sensor would be enough to offset the sensor filter type difference and details and resolution rendered considering how good the merrills are being perceived in comparison to the D800 but most especially medium formats. it sounds heresy I know, but that takes a lot of guts to even say such thing and could be true or atleast very near to it. at over $1,000, the Nikon A doesn't look to be that attractive at all especially compared with similar MP APS-C size type MILCs which are btw cheaper. maybe if the Coolpix A could render something at around 25MP or even a Fullframe, that people including myself would seriously consider it.

LTZ470
LTZ470 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,926
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

JSTB wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Coolpix A is way smaller, perfect for landscapes…should be super sharp at f/4…combined with RX1…lethal combo...

"lethal???!!!!!!???" Don't you think that's a just wee bit of hyperbole? Admittedly I prefer the X100S because of the viewfinder. However I do shoot Nikon FF as well as an X Pro and X100 and think the Nikon looks like a very nice camera that would be better priced around $750 because of the lack of a viewfinder. I'm sure they will be selling about that price this time next year used and perhaps I will get one then. Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Sony, Pentax, Olympus, they are all very good cameras. None of them are going to make you a better photographer. That's about compostion and creativity.

Used the EVF on the RX1 once…yes once, when I had it on ground level on a tripod and of course no articulating/hinged LCD screen…I turned the EVF straight up so i could compose a few night shots…first and last time I have used it…other wise it stays in the holster...

Heres the shots I used it for...

http://acwilli.smugmug.com/Other/RX1-Night-at-Atlantis-Bahamas/27112860_BTBDZR

Sooo, like Ray says the EVF is an expensive option and really not required to be honest, I could have composed by lying down, but since I had the EVF it was easier...

The Bright Sunlight Setting REALLY works on the Sony's, hopefully Nikon will follow suit...

I actually use the RX1 at work for a work camera…in explosive atmospheres you really shouldn't be using a flash so I don't and the RX1 is a treat for this...

http://acwilli.smugmug.com/Other/RX1-Offshore/27549825_m6dDfq#!i=2319148639&k=WTxTbgc

Here's the joke on folks that think stabilization is a big MUST have:

All from RX1 in a vibrating Helicopter:…not bad at all...

http://acwilli.smugmug.com/Other/Sony-RX1-West-Africa/27385887_MNm4PV#!i=2302854155&k=hsjp5vC

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Vera Cognome Regular Member • Posts: 370
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

Don't underestimate the power of a brand.  Without the "Nikon" name, I'm not sure any company could have survived Nikon camera's "lost decade" of the 1990's.

To my eye, this falls into the same category as the Nikon 1 stuff -- a marginal product that stores wouldn't stock without the Nikon (or Canon) name on it.

Velu Contributing Member • Posts: 505
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

Ray Sachs wrote:

leoda wrote:

@ Ray Sachs

Your postings on this thread are overbearing and obnoxious, and personally insulting of the people you are responding to.

If you want to improve your credibility, improve your manners.

Hey, people are entitled to like one camera over another and say why a set of features are better to THEM and I don't have ANY problem with that. But if someone is going to claim that to be a 'photographer', you MUST USE A VIEWFINDER, thereby denigrating all of the photographers who've used cut glass or LCDs or whatever to compose their images as "non-photographers", I'll come at them with all guns blazing and I'll be as nasty and overbearing as they are. If you can show me how I responded in an overbearing and obnoxious way when someone is just stating their case as an opinion without insulting a whole class of people who see photography differently than they do, I'll apologize. But in the case of this particular post, i was probably too nice.

Look, I have an X-Pro - its probably my favorite of my cameras. I shoot it both with and without the viewfinder(s). I have other cameras that have viewfinders and a couple that don't. I will never insult people who prefer to shoot with viewfinders. But if someone who prefers to shoot with viewfinders insults everyone who feels differently by suggesting they're not photographers, I'm going to get right up in their face and be as insulting to them as they just were to a whole class of photographers. And if he CAN differentiate which photographs were taken with and without viewfinders, I'll give him credit for that. But I'm betting he can't, disproving his ridiculous claim.

Looking back at my posts in this thread, I've arguably been obnoxious twice - in both cases to people who claimed that a camera could not be a good camera without a viewfinder. The first guy did not personalize it and claim that those using the non-viewfinder camera were less photographers, just that we were using inferior tools. I used sarcasm in my response. Perhaps I should have toned that one down a bit and still made my point. But the guy in this sub-thread portion of the thread who personally insulted all photographers who choose to shoot without a viewfinder deserved all I could give him and much more that I held back. In retrospect, I'll offer a partial apology for that earlier post, but not the one to this guy - no way.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

Yes, Velu is from Belgium and NO, English is not his first language, it's actually his fourth ( Dutch/fFlemish, French and German are the official ones over here ! )

Ray, you were probably too nice. Any jerk deserves such reaction, only ... isn't there a saying in English ... "Never assume !" ?

My comment wasn't meant in a "jerky" way.

At first I did choose not to reply but in order to clear the air I'd like to emphasize a few things.

This is my original mail:

" I'm a photographer ... and therefore would not even consider a camera without a viewfinder !

I did not say you can't take great pictures with a "point n shoot", but again ... as a photographer ... NO ... plenty of reasons !"

You read " if you use a camera without a VF, you are not a photographer" ...

I mention that I am a photographer and perhaps this is a first "language barrier"-error.

A "photographer" over here means that you make a living (regardless if that's partly or 100%) by taking pictures, and that's, for several reasons, just not feasable doing so with a camera without VF).

( agreeing or disagreeing with that, we can discuss ...)

THEREFORE , having the choice between two camera's, I'd not even consider the one without a VF !

This might (or might not) clear the air ...

In order to reply the OP I prefer to provide facts. Image quality-wise, no one can tell (yet) ... size, you can ... and size is obvious for anyone ... but the lack or presence of a VF is not that obvious to everyone !

A number of posts here mention the lack of a VF. You "defend" and proof that working without is feasable, but please don't forget, owning several camera's with/without VF provides you with the CHOICE !

There are circumstances and moments you just can't use an lcd. At times using a VF can be more discrete ! Correct framing ... and so on ...

My question to you ... if you have to make the choice ... camera with or without VF ... what's it gonna be ?

By the way, you did post a number of nice "photographs", but unfortunately I'm not a genius so ...

Best regards

Velu

PS  By the way, the only "connection"  I have with H.C.B. is the fact that he had a viewfinder but he even managed to take great pictures through a hole in a fence with his viewfinder blocked

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www.veluart.com

Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,580
Re: If you've decided on Coolpix A instead of X100s, please share your thinking.

Velu wrote:

Yes, Velu is from Belgium and NO, English is not his first language, it's actually his fourth ( Dutch/fFlemish, French and German are the official ones over here ! )

Ray, you were probably too nice. Any jerk deserves such reaction, only ... isn't there a saying in English ... "Never assume !" ?

My comment wasn't meant in a "jerky" way.

At first I did choose not to reply but in order to clear the air I'd like to emphasize a few things.

This is my original mail:

" I'm a photographer ... and therefore would not even consider a camera without a viewfinder !

I did not say you can't take great pictures with a "point n shoot", but again ... as a photographer ... NO ... plenty of reasons !"

You read " if you use a camera without a VF, you are not a photographer" ...

I mention that I am a photographer and perhaps this is a first "language barrier"-error.

A "photographer" over here means that you make a living (regardless if that's partly or 100%) by taking pictures, and that's, for several reasons, just not feasable doing so with a camera without VF).

( agreeing or disagreeing with that, we can discuss ...)

THEREFORE , having the choice between two camera's, I'd not even consider the one without a VF !

This might (or might not) clear the air ...

In order to reply the OP I prefer to provide facts. Image quality-wise, no one can tell (yet) ... size, you can ... and size is obvious for anyone ... but the lack or presence of a VF is not that obvious to everyone !

A number of posts here mention the lack of a VF. You "defend" and proof that working without is feasable, but please don't forget, owning several camera's with/without VF provides you with the CHOICE !

There are circumstances and moments you just can't use an lcd. At times using a VF can be more discrete ! Correct framing ... and so on ...

My question to you ... if you have to make the choice ... camera with or without VF ... what's it gonna be ?

By the way, you did post a number of nice "photographs", but unfortunately I'm not a genius so ...

Velu - thank you for the clarification. I DID misinterpret your intent - very probably a language issue - and I hereby apologize unequivocally. I was wrong. Yes, your post does clear the air, rather completely - thank you!

With your additional clarification, I agree with you more or less totally. You're right that by having multiple cameras, I have a choice. In many cases I would choose to go out with a camera without a viewfinder but in some cases I would only choose a camera with one. To me it's less about brightness than focal length because some rear screens have gotten so good in bright sunlight that I'd never hesitate to rely on them. Sony come to mind as the best but others are also very very good now. But for any lens of portrait length or longer, I'd much rather have a viewfinder for the stability both of the composition and the actual firing of the shutter. I just find more precision is needed at those focal lengths. I use my OMD for almost all such shooting and it has an excellent EVF that even uses the stabilizer on while composing the shot - with very long lenses I find this tremendously advantageous.

Ironically, my X-Pro generally is mounted with lenses at wider focal lengths where I'm least likely to feel the need for a viewfinder. But I like the OVF so much on that camera that I use it a lot anyway. I don't need it, but I greatly enjoy it. So I don't claim to be entirely consistent here. If I get the Nikon, it won't replace my Fuji - it would largely replace my essentially fixed lens Ricoh GXR-28 which I've never shot with a viewfinder and don't feel any desire to. So I wouldn't hesitate too buy the Nikon if I see a compelling advantage to use it rather than the Ricoh.

Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding and, again, my apologies. It seems we actually agree almost completely on this question. If I was to own only one camera (what a terrible thought!) it would almost certainly have a viewfinder - probably the OMD among my current cameras. Not because its my favorite camera - it's not. But because its by far my most versatile and quite capable at everything I've tried doing with it.

PS By the way, the only "connection" I have with H.C.B. is the fact that he had a viewfinder but he even managed to take great pictures through a hole in a fence with his viewfinder blocked

The funny thing is HCB was dismissive in his day of TLR cameras, which were generally shot at waist or belly level. He was quoted as saying something along the lines of 'if god had wanted us to shoot from that angle, he'd have put our eyes in our bellies instead of our heads'. So if he was around today and still held to that opinion, I'd have had a bigger issue with him than I mistakenly thought I had with you! He was highly unforgiving of those who shot without eye-level finders. But I'd still respect him overwhelmingly as a photographer

-Ray
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