70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

Started Feb 28, 2013 | Discussions
(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

MAC wrote:

agree, these 4/3 systems are starting to play bigger for:

being smaller systems and still great IQ

in body IS

but, the focus speeds and big buffers are lacking for action, so Canon and Nikon dominate when there is movement that must be captured to earn $

Yes, Olympus could do a lot there. If they can get the high speed performance to a level comparable to Canon and Nikon, it would offer a great alternative for sport/wildlife photographers.

I would certainly consider it if I were in the market for a longer lens. With Canon, going beyond 400mm is extremely expensive. Olympus is not necessarily cheaper, their 300/2.8 being similar in price to the Canon version, but with a 2x TC and the crop factor Olympus does offer more reach in a more compact package.

If Canon doesn't come up with a 7DmkII, and Olympus does come up with a high performance E-7 (and I think they should be capable of that), then it might become something to consider as well.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: Huge conflict of interest.
1

carlk wrote:

You're right thank god there is competition. Smart consumers should reward the best (to the consumer) company. Blind loyalty to one particular company is just stupid.

A lot has changed already due to the mirrorless market, where Canon and Nikon have failed to take it seriously and Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji, Sony, etc., have all great products that cater to different consumer needs.

I'm really curious about the DSLR market on the long term. Canon and Nikon are still on top there, but with the increase in lens prices many enthusiasts with deep pockets will probably reconsider. Maybe it will open up that market to Sony, Pentax and Olympus. With Sony and Olympus now joining forces, they might just have what is needed to compete with Canon and Nikon.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,538
Re: May I?
4

WilbaW wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

They are trying to undermine my credibility because they don't like what I say.

No Bob, we all know this is not about what you say, it's about how you say it. Stop the deliberately provocative mystification.

Wrong. All I said was what was correct and clear. Too clear for you and your colleagues. As I said to another of your ilk, I am a believer in cause and effect, and also in evidence. So, let's look at your entry into the discussion about what the 7D is made of:

I had said

there are plenty of teardowns and from them it is obvious that the chassis is plastic.

And you said

This sounds like one of those nonsensical statements that turns out to be almost plausible if you use remarkably esoteric, obscure, or obtuse definitions of "chassis" and/or "plastic". Or maybe it's just that magnesium painted black looks like plastic in those teardowns. For the rest of us there's
Body material - Magnesium alloy and
magnesium construction.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50956862

Pretty clear from this, who is teh one trying to obfuscate. My remarkably esoteric, obscure or obtuse definitions of 'chassis' and/or 'plastic' turn out to be the everyday ones. Plastic - a polymer material, Chassis - the framework that holds everything together. And then your two links, which are just links to the DPR spec pages. I find this now a common ploy with the obfuscator, in the knowledge that most people won't follow links, you put in ones that say nothing at all in support of your case.

And I showed it. That's what galls with you people. OK, I'll admit, it's how I say it - I say it clearly, unequivocally and what I say is true, which doesn't suit you own agendas. Everything I have said about the 7D is this thread is the truth. It is germane to the discussion and also relevant to those making equipment choices. Everything you have done is to obfuscate, because that suits your own agenda.

That includes this post. Your not right, and you've been shown not to be right, so the next best thing is to pretend that the person who showed you not to be right has some kind of bad agenda, or is behaving badly by being right. Well, I'm not buying it and you'll find that the only people who do are those that share your own agenda.

And we're not fooled by you liking your own posts.

Time to stop feeding the troll guys.

That really is pathetic. Just label everyone who disagrees with you a 'troll'. Absolute typical fanboy tactics. No-one is fooled by the subsequent obvious attempts to appear fair minded by discussing the merits of other systems, either.

-- hide signature --

Bob

WilbaW
WilbaW Forum Pro • Posts: 11,594
Re: May I?
1

Failed attempt at feeding the troll guys.

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Christoph Stephan
Christoph Stephan Veteran Member • Posts: 4,270
Long-term reliability...

nedelcho wrote:

Everyone think that current Canon cameras are overpriced. I think not. At the moment Canon have better quality control and this cost money. Their bodies are more expensive for a reason (for example, look at lens rentals blog posts). Nikon are very aggressive with pricing and features and everyone think they are the best, but in practical use it is not so and fanboys will not admit it. The camera does not only need the best features, but has to be reliable and get the picture no matter what. Unfortunately current nikon generation is not as good build as canon's.i

...is the most important features in products, not only cameras...but for cameras it is extemely important. Imagine your camera just breaking down during that 3000 GBP tour to the Galapagos, on top of Kilimanjaro, or on Safari.

Unfortunately, reliability cannot as easily measured as paper specs. It is also a statistical function. You always hope that it is better in more expensive products, but this need not to be. In the 80ies I bought a 100 € (200 DM) walkman with nice solid looking design  and only few features. It broke down after only two years. I then got a cheap 25 € (25 DM) walkman. After 20+ years, this one is still in working order (although getting very little use now).

Based on this, you experience as a camera vendor and renter is very valuable. Does the EOS 60D and Rebels have more failures than the EOS 7D? How about Pentax K-30 and Pentax K-5?

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Christoph Stephan
Christoph Stephan Veteran Member • Posts: 4,270
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

Wyville wrote:

I'm always hoping for Pentax too. They have pretty good products, especially for enthusiasts, but never really seem to get a foothold.

Me, too. Their SLRs and lenses are really nice.I especially appreciate that they build bigger pentaprism also into their smaller DLSRs and generally have a lighter more compact design without compromises in functionality.

In the lens department they are lacking  long teles, but there you have the Sigma 150-500 mm OS and Sigma 50-500mm OS with Pentax fit.

If I would not have gone Canon with the EOS 300D (just a bargain these days, and Pentax*ist nowhere to be had) I would have stayed with Pentax, as I had a Ricoh film SLR with K-mount lenses. Sometimes I think of aquiring a K-30 18-55mm WR + 50-200mm WR for long outdoor trips (and out of solidarity with Pentax), but building up two systems is just a waste of money.

However, it would be a real shame to see Pentax SLRs gone!

 Christoph Stephan's gear list:Christoph Stephan's gear list
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OP ehliysehr Junior Member • Posts: 46
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

abi170845 wrote:

And so what if a member's gallery is blank? I will not post my best shots online. My best shots are shown printed, framed and hung 2 meters across in my private exposition in an art gallery.

I am talking about trolls who are posting here beleaguering a brand (camera) when in real life they haven't got the chance to use it, you get my point?

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carlk Forum Pro • Posts: 15,940
Re: Huge conflict of interest.
2

Wyville wrote:

carlk wrote:

You're right thank god there is competition. Smart consumers should reward the best (to the consumer) company. Blind loyalty to one particular company is just stupid.

A lot has changed already due to the mirrorless market, where Canon and Nikon have failed to take it seriously and Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji, Sony, etc., have all great products that cater to different consumer needs.

I'm really curious about the DSLR market on the long term. Canon and Nikon are still on top there, but with the increase in lens prices many enthusiasts with deep pockets will probably reconsider. Maybe it will open up that market to Sony, Pentax and Olympus. With Sony and Olympus now joining forces, they might just have what is needed to compete with Canon and Nikon.

Mirrorless is the way of the future for high end photography except for a few pros with real special needs. Smart phone camera will take over the low to mid-level market. This may not happen right away but it will happen in 5~10 years if not sooner. In the mean time Canon and Nikon will try to sell as many dslr as possible, just like HP and Dell will try to sell as many laptops as possible, when this is the only thing they are good at. This is another reason a smart consumer should look at the big picture instead of stick with only one brand he/she is familiar with.

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rubank Senior Member • Posts: 1,082
Re: Indeed
3

bobn2 wrote:


Not a huge number, but they are very, very vocal. They are in fact far outnumbered by people who have gone for D800's, D600's and D7000's but those people are more likely to just be taking photographs than whinging on forums.

You are just one number, but very, very vocal.

Yet, you seem unable to convince anyone of the "pro APS-C" crowd who you say are too few to be important to the vendors.

Why? Because you simply fail to understand the priorities and choices of those you argue against.

jonrobertp Forum Pro • Posts: 12,875
Competition coming up: D71 vs 70D...

and, may the best man win !   Plus, I'm gonna take home the winner !!  yay...can hardly wait !

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Keith Z Leonard Veteran Member • Posts: 6,125
Re: May I?
2

bobn2 wrote:

And we're not fooled by you liking your own posts.

Time to stop feeding the troll guys.

That really is pathetic. Just label everyone who disagrees with you a 'troll'. Absolute typical fanboy tactics. No-one is fooled by the subsequent obvious attempts to appear fair minded by discussing the merits of other systems, either.

You do realize that labeling your detractors as "fanboy" is equally ad hominem, right?  I mean, you're a smart guy, you get that, right??

-- hide signature --

Bob

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

Christoph Stephan wrote:

Me, too. Their SLRs and lenses are really nice.I especially appreciate that they build bigger pentaprism also into their smaller DLSRs and generally have a lighter more compact design without compromises in functionality.

In the lens department they are lacking long teles, but there you have the Sigma 150-500 mm OS and Sigma 50-500mm OS with Pentax fit.

If I would not have gone Canon with the EOS 300D (just a bargain these days, and Pentax*ist nowhere to be had) I would have stayed with Pentax, as I had a Ricoh film SLR with K-mount lenses. Sometimes I think of aquiring a K-30 18-55mm WR + 50-200mm WR for long outdoor trips (and out of solidarity with Pentax), but building up two systems is just a waste of money.

However, it would be a real shame to see Pentax SLRs gone!

Pentax is still working on the longer lenses. There is now a 560mm f/5.6 prime, although I don't know if it's readily available yet and it is something like $6.5k. Pentax also seems to have a longer (>300mm) tele zoom in the works for this year or later. So there's still hope.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: Huge conflict of interest.

carlk wrote:

Mirrorless is the way of the future for high end photography except for a few pros with real special needs. Smart phone camera will take over the low to mid-level market. This may not happen right away but it will happen in 5~10 years if not sooner. In the mean time Canon and Nikon will try to sell as many dslr as possible, just like HP and Dell will try to sell as many laptops as possible, when this is the only thing they are good at. This is another reason a smart consumer should look at the big picture instead of stick with only one brand he/she is familiar with.

I don't think it's that bad. DSLRs still have their strengths and I don't see the mirrorless market offering high performance cameras yet. The best so far might be something like the Olympus E-M5, but that one isn't capable of keeping up with a high end DSLR at speed, nor do I see an E-M5 attached to a long tele lens to be very comfortable to use.

That said, the biggest advantage of a DSLR is simply that it is a DSLR and allows you to see the scene through the lens. No matter how good an EVF is, I still prefer to see the actual scene through the lens.

So even though I love the mirrorless cameras and would certainly consider an E-M5 or Fuji E-X1 in the future, I don't see it as a substitution for my 7D and 100-400L. More like a compliment.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,538
Re: May I?
2

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

And we're not fooled by you liking your own posts.

Time to stop feeding the troll guys.

That really is pathetic. Just label everyone who disagrees with you a 'troll'. Absolute typical fanboy tactics. No-one is fooled by the subsequent obvious attempts to appear fair minded by discussing the merits of other systems, either.

You do realize that labeling your detractors as "fanboy" is equally ad hominem, right? I mean, you're a smart guy, you get that, right??

You're misusing 'ad hominem'. It is a logical fallacy, arguing to the man, not the argument, which was being done against me. 'Fanboy' is just a description of the motivation for their action. I was unable to address their arguments any other way, since their arguments were solely 'argumentum ad hominem'. Nor did I label my detractors as 'fanboys', I just pointed out that they were using fanboy tactics. And, the label was responsive. They argue that way, they get that response. They argue of the evidence, they get a reasoned response based on that evidence. If their evidence is good enough, they convince me. As it was, they presented no evidence, simply argumentum ad hominem from the start. As I pointed out the Wyvill, his first post on this topic was argumentum ad hominem.

-- hide signature --

Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,538
Re: Indeed
2

rubank wrote:

bobn2 wrote:


Not a huge number, but they are very, very vocal. They are in fact far outnumbered by people who have gone for D800's, D600's and D7000's but those people are more likely to just be taking photographs than whinging on forums.

You are just one number, but very, very vocal.

Yet, you seem unable to convince anyone of the "pro APS-C" crowd who you say are too few to be important to the vendors.

I never said that the 'pro APS-C' crowd are too few to be important to vendors. I didn't say anything about the 'pro APS-C crowd' at all, I didn't even use the term. So, you are arguing against a straw man.

Why? Because you simply fail to understand the priorities and choices of those you argue against.

Not guilty. Try pinning a charge on someone for something they actually said, next time.

-- hide signature --

Bob

Christoph Stephan
Christoph Stephan Veteran Member • Posts: 4,270
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
1

Wyville wrote:

Pentax is still working on the longer lenses. There is now a 560mm f/5.6 prime, although I don't know if it's readily available yet and it is something like $6.5k. Pentax also seems to have a longer (>300mm) tele zoom in the works for this year or later. So there's still hope.

Sometimes I wonder whether a K-30 with 18-55mm WR, 55-200mm WR and 100mm f2.8 Macro WR would be just the ideal robust and lightweight set up for longer trekking trrips under harsher conditions (Rwenzori mountains, for example, or some rainy New Zealand National Parks). Or o save weight, the 18-135 mm Wr instead of the former two, but I am not that enthusastic about superzoom leneses due to personal experience.

As to the original thread, a Canon 7D with the same functions and controls (including 100% 100x viewfinder), an improved sensor (high ISO) and shrunk to the size and weight of the Pentax K5 or EOS 20D would just be perfect.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
1

Christoph Stephan wrote:

As to the original thread, a Canon 7D with the same functions and controls (including 100% 100x viewfinder), an improved sensor (high ISO) and shrunk to the size and weight of the Pentax K5 or EOS 20D would just be perfect.

The size and weight are fine as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't even mind if they made a "small" version of the 1DX and gave it a built-in grip. Not that, that would ever happen, but I often wish I had a grip for my 7D. (Should really pick one up one of these days.)

Maybe the 70D will be more to your taste if they build it like the 50D. (Might be seeing an end of March announcement.)

Keith Z Leonard Veteran Member • Posts: 6,125
Re: May I?
1

I love how when you don't like something you just point the blame at people for not knowing things, I have a philosophy minor, I'm pretty sure I know how it's used.  Though I'm sure now that you can attack me with the assumption that you know more than everybody about everything....have fun with yourself there.

argumentum ad hominem, to the person or to the man.  Instead of arguing the semantic merits of whether or not the skin is included as a part of the chassis you are dismissing the point by labeling those with whom you are arguing as "fanboy", that is a classic use of the fallacy.

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Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: May I?
1

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

I love how when you don't like something you just point the blame at people for not knowing things, I have a philosophy minor, I'm pretty sure I know how it's used. Though I'm sure now that you can attack me with the assumption that you know more than everybody about everything....have fun with yourself there.

argumentum ad hominem, to the person or to the man. Instead of arguing the semantic merits of whether or not the skin is included as a part of the chassis you are dismissing the point by labeling those with whom you are arguing as "fanboy", that is a classic use of the fallacy.

Throw in a little psychology. If you want discussion you should talk at equal terms. Shouting of the roof how wrong the other is and how right you are will have the very opposite result than aimed for (unless you want an arguement). Completely useless to even react like in the first place.

If ones envolved in an arguement and this stands alone it could be either person (or both) that caused the arguement. In case this type of behaviour evokes nearly always nearly identical reactions it would be wise to start with a little selfreflection, in particular when several people this matter repeatedly have pointed out.

-- hide signature --

Cheers Mike

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carlk Forum Pro • Posts: 15,940
Re: Huge conflict of interest.
1

Wyville wrote:

carlk wrote:

Mirrorless is the way of the future for high end photography except for a few pros with real special needs. Smart phone camera will take over the low to mid-level market. This may not happen right away but it will happen in 5~10 years if not sooner. In the mean time Canon and Nikon will try to sell as many dslr as possible, just like HP and Dell will try to sell as many laptops as possible, when this is the only thing they are good at. This is another reason a smart consumer should look at the big picture instead of stick with only one brand he/she is familiar with.

I don't think it's that bad. DSLRs still have their strengths and I don't see the mirrorless market offering high performance cameras yet. The best so far might be something like the Olympus E-M5, but that one isn't capable of keeping up with a high end DSLR at speed, nor do I see an E-M5 attached to a long tele lens to be very comfortable to use.

That said, the biggest advantage of a DSLR is simply that it is a DSLR and allows you to see the scene through the lens. No matter how good an EVF is, I still prefer to see the actual scene through the lens.

So even though I love the mirrorless cameras and would certainly consider an E-M5 or Fuji E-X1 in the future, I don't see it as a substitution for my 7D and 100-400L. More like a compliment.

I look at this a little differently.  There are some issues mainly AF and VF that prevented mirrorless from matching dslr performance at the moment but these are all technical issues not physical limitations.  Things like high res and fast response EVF and imbedded AF, for example, can address these issues and make mirrorless as good as, if not better, than dslr when technology matures.

On the other hand the big mirror box in dslr presented a fundamental limitation in cost, packaging efficiency, shooting speed and IQ (yes IQ because of lens design restrictions) that can never be overcome.  Let's wait and see but I have stopped buying expensive dslr lenses for the last two or three years in anticipation that I might be shooting a totally different camera down the road.

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