70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

Started Feb 28, 2013 | Discussions
Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: No matter how they are made...
1

nedelcho wrote:

No matter how they are made (plastic or metal), 7D and D300s are marvelous cameras. Not at all like D7000 which is lower cost for a reason. I don't know why, but quality control became lower in Nikon in recent models and higher in Canon. D300s and 7D are build like a tanks and they fail very rarely. I work in a shop for photo equipment and you wouldn't believe how many D7000 bodies customers are bringing for service. Stuck shutter button, LCD problems, problems with autofocus not working at all or such a vast front/back focus with all their lenses, that in camera MFA can't help (do you believe 18-105VR that need -15 MFA to focus properly). Once we tested 3 samples of 35mm f/1.8G on one customer's nikon body and all of them had focus issue (we tested on other body as well) and 50mm f/1.4G or 85/1.8G didn't have problems at all on his body. Recent trend is problems with D5100, we have 3 bodies in a row that had stuck mirror. Previous generation of nikon cameras is very different, it was better in therms of quality control. No problems at all with D300s and D700. We also rent cameras and D300s/D700 have not been serviced once, in the 3 or 4 years we rent them.

Everyone think that current Canon cameras are overpriced. I think not. At the moment Canon have better quality control and this cost money. Their bodies are more expensive for a reason (for example, look at lens rentals blog posts). Nikon are very aggressive with pricing and features and everyone think they are the best, but in practical use it is not so and fanboys will not admit it. The camera does not only need the best features, but has to be reliable and get the picture no matter what. Unfortunately current nikon generation is not as good build as canon's.

My response is to bobn2, not to Wyville (the clear the confusion).

It's a general problem most companies sooner or later have to deal with. Recently there was VW (in Europe known as a reliable carmaker) with all kinds of problems (engines,windows falling into the door etc.). Some years before there was MB with the C having all kinds electronic problems and the E with the all known rusty trunks.

QA goes up and down all the time no matter what quality system you got. Plus the development times have decrease, this goes for basicly every product. In the 60's you could get say a Leica RF and were done for the next 15 or even 25 years to come. Same with the old Volvo's (200 series) one design that kept going for 20 years or so. Now Volvo is putting a new model on the market every 7 years or so.

A sign of the times, though I was surprized about the size of the Q problems at Nikon.Particularly in the consumer level market you need to deliver the goods, those are future semi pro or even pro gear buyers.

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Cheers Mike

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,903
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
3

Wyville wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

What I do here is correct misinformation, because misinformation has a way of growing and confuses many people.

Unfortunately, you are not correcting misinformation.

That is exactly what I am doing

Teaching ...change.

The rest of the post disregarded, because it was nothing but argumentum ad hominem in the absence of any hard evidence to support your case.

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,903
Re: One comment about plastics

Limburger wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Limburger wrote:

Wyville wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

Somehow, people are implying that plastics are bad and metals are good. Not always, plastics can be manufactured to higher precision than metals and plastics withstand much wider temperature ranges without deformation than many metals.

In the 60s, that is the 1960s, and the 70s plastics were always low quality. Now, in many cases plastics are as strong and reliable as many metals. Plastics are fantastic in small size, cars or truck sizes that's another story.

Indeed. I too had a natural aversion for plastic, despite knowing that plastics were perfectly capable of doing the job. These days I don't care anymore. I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations.

For me my main concern is that the camera feels solid, like a brick. I couldn't live with my D80 and buying the 7D was a real relief. Suddenly I was perfectly confident in my camera and didn't mind it being bumped. Makes going out and shooting a lot more relaxing!

Same here.

It's like overtaking on the highway with a capable car/engine, you know the power is there when needed.

Except in this case you don't 'know the power is there'. With a car there will be a set of figures that tell you the power and torque that the engine produces. Canon have produced no figures that indicate that the 7D is more robust than a D80, all you are going on is an impression gained from their marketing material.

I already upgraded,try convincing people that didn't yet.

If somebody is going to kick your ass,there are also no figures if you're about to brake some bones yet still there is a seriuous change it will be the case.

Go back to benchmarking toiletpaper.

Now you've just become incoherent. Bye.

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,903
Re: One comment about plastics
2

Wyville wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

It's not 'natural', it is a cultural response. There is no innate characteristic that gives a person a greater affinity for metal than plastic.

"Natural" or "cultural" is a matter of semantics and not important.

Every matter of separation of concerns seems to be a 'matter of semantics' to you. Why do we not just have one word that means everything? It would make learning languages simpler.

So, your measure for quality is the brand name. That is not a surprise to me.

Derogative and presumptuous. I have no brand loyalty and love Nikon's products as much as those of Canon.

I said simply that your measure for quality is a brand name, that is the simple corollary of your previous statement that 'I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations' - you make your assessment of whether it is liable to 'live up to expectations' purely on brand name. If it is 'derogative and presumptuous' simply to draw the inference of what you yourself said, then so be it.

But, you have no information that the 7D is in any way more robust that a D80, all you have is a general impression that Canon's marketing has given you. That is why they are as successful as they are.

Yes, it's all down to marketing... Oh wait no, I used a D80 for a year and went and tried out the 7D and D300 to see how different the feel would be and preferred the build of the latter two over the D80. You know, we buy luxury items because we like them. I don't justify it beyond that.

But you seem to need to. I have never said anything against your right to like the products that you like, nor have I castigated you in any way for liking them.

You started this subthread with (in reply to Ramesh's 'according to most reviews 7D construction is rugged and made of Magnesium alloy.'):

I have no idea why Bob needs to pretend otherwise, everybody knows the 7D is magnesium alloy. I'm beginning to suspect there might be ulterior motives at play.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50957954

So, it was unequivocally you that started the 'ad-hominem' nature of this sub-thread, now you accuse me of being 'derogative and presumptuous'. Sorry, you take what you dish out. If you had wanted to conduct this discussion as a level headed and fact based examination of how Canon builds its cameras, you'd not have started that way.

I have stated a simple fact about how the 7D is build. It is pertinent to the topic of this thread. The fact that I am now surrounded by a small gaggle of f*nboys, engaging in every ad-hominem argument they can think of in opposition to this simple fact speaks volumes.

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Bob

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
4

bobn2 wrote:

That is exactly what I am doing

Not really since your audience isn't listening.

The rest of the post disregarded, because it was nothing but argumentum ad hominem in the absence of any hard evidence to support your case.

Nothing ad hominem about it. I teach (under)graduate students and was simply sharing some of the basics so you might improve. Feel free to ignore it.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: One comment about plastics
4

bobn2 wrote:

I said simply that your measure for quality is a brand name, that is the simple corollary of your previous statement that 'I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations' - you make your assessment of whether it is liable to 'live up to expectations' purely on brand name. If it is 'derogative and presumptuous' simply to draw the inference of what you yourself said, then so be it.

My expectations of Canon are no different from those I have of Nikon, Sony, Pentax, etc.. That you keep linking it to brand name and insist on calling me a fanboy is attacking a straw man and shows your insincere nature.

Have fun... I'm moving on to more constructive things.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,903
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
2

Wyville wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

That is exactly what I am doing

Not really since your audience isn't listening.

You're not my audience.

The rest of the post disregarded, because it was nothing but argumentum ad hominem in the absence of any hard evidence to support your case.

Nothing ad hominem about it. I teach (under)graduate students and was simply sharing some of the basics so you might improve. Feel free to ignore it.

That is just so funny, and you don't even know why.

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,903
Re: One comment about plastics
1

Wyville wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

I said simply that your measure for quality is a brand name, that is the simple corollary of your previous statement that 'I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations' - you make your assessment of whether it is liable to 'live up to expectations' purely on brand name. If it is 'derogative and presumptuous' simply to draw the inference of what you yourself said, then so be it.

My expectations of Canon are no different from those I have of Nikon, Sony, Pentax, etc.. That you keep linking it to brand name and insist on calling me a fanboy is attacking a straw man and shows your insincere nature.

I haven't called you a fanboy and that you say so shows your insecure nature.

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Bob

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
May I?
5

I agree with Wyville.

I didn't see anybody questioning your knowledge but never saw you levelling so there is dialogue instead of arguement.

What Wyville imo is basicly telling you that all the knowledge in the world is worthless if you can't portrait it to others aka peopleskills.

Comming from a technical medical background myself I learned a lot of theory but in the field is getting you nowhere if not open for a more emperical instead of theoretical approach.

If some posts something wrong you can jump on it or say the person might be mistaken resulting in totally different relationships.

You made me think about a guy at work, his education level is ok but with his approach to matters he never is going anywhere.

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Cheers Mike

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,903
Re: May I?
2

Limburger wrote:

I agree with Wyville.

Why am I not surprised at all by that?

I didn't see anybody questioning your knowledge but never saw you levelling so there is dialogue instead of arguement.

What Wyville imo is basicly telling you that all the knowledge in the world is worthless if you can't portrait it to others aka peopleskills.

Comming from a technical medical background myself I learned a lot of theory but in the field is getting you nowhere if not open for a more emperical instead of theoretical approach.

If some posts something wrong you can jump on it or say the person might be mistaken resulting in totally different relationships.

You made me think about a guy at work, his education level is ok but with his approach to matters he never is going anywhere.

So, you continue with argumentum ad hominem. This is very simple, in the end, you all worked out that I was right, because the evidence is compelling. You don't want me to be right, so the only way you have of defending your 'point of view' is to attack me personally, which is exactly what you have all done, with a vengeance. Your problem is, to paraphrase the old saying, that I actually enjoy wresting with pigs, and I don't mid getting dirty. So, since I'm quite happy to give back everything you throw at me, with a little more - you just escalate the personal attacks.

It doesn't bother me at all, I have quite enough peer esteem in my everyday life to satisfy my ego. I don't feel the need to stroke people's fragile egos here just to avoid the consequent personal attacks. In fact, I have fun with them.

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Bob

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: May I?
5

bobn2 wrote:

Limburger wrote:

I agree with Wyville.

Why am I not surprised at all by that?

I didn't see anybody questioning your knowledge but never saw you levelling so there is dialogue instead of arguement.

What Wyville imo is basicly telling you that all the knowledge in the world is worthless if you can't portrait it to others aka peopleskills.

Comming from a technical medical background myself I learned a lot of theory but in the field is getting you nowhere if not open for a more emperical instead of theoretical approach.

If some posts something wrong you can jump on it or say the person might be mistaken resulting in totally different relationships.

You made me think about a guy at work, his education level is ok but with his approach to matters he never is going anywhere.

So, you continue with argumentum ad hominem. This is very simple, in the end, you all worked out that I was right, because the evidence is compelling. You don't want me to be right, so the only way you have of defending your 'point of view' is to attack me personally, which is exactly what you have all done, with a vengeance. Your problem is, to paraphrase the old saying, that I actually enjoy wresting with pigs, and I don't mid getting dirty. So, since I'm quite happy to give back everything you throw at me, with a little more - you just escalate the personal attacks.

It doesn't bother me at all, I have quite enough peer esteem in my everyday life to satisfy my ego. I don't feel the need to stroke people's fragile egos here just to avoid the consequent personal attacks. In fact, I have fun with them.

First, if I was to agree with you I would be wrong.

Second, the so called attack on you is just what you do and blame me for doing.

And in terms of a satisfied ego I see the very oppsite. Everytime somebody disagrees with you you start to quote Latin (argumentum ad hominem). The people that even point that out (try to help) to you, you go argumentum ad hominem (mirroring the reasoning).

I can read between the lines I see a lot more than I just posted.

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Cheers Mike

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: May I?
6

Limburger wrote:

I agree with Wyville.

I didn't see anybody questioning your knowledge but never saw you levelling so there is dialogue instead of arguement.

What Wyville imo is basicly telling you that all the knowledge in the world is worthless if you can't portrait it to others aka peopleskills.

Comming from a technical medical background myself I learned a lot of theory but in the field is getting you nowhere if not open for a more emperical instead of theoretical approach.

If some posts something wrong you can jump on it or say the person might be mistaken resulting in totally different relationships.

You made me think about a guy at work, his education level is ok but with his approach to matters he never is going anywhere.

Many people teach, but few are good teachers. That's especially true in academics where people fight for acknowledgement by peers and forget that the knowledge they produce has to land somewhere where not everyone is a peer. The Richard Feynman's of this world are rare and far in between.

On an internet forum it is counter-productive to disseminate knowledge from an "Ivory Tower". The place is far too informal and the diversity of knowledge levels too large. To make a point it is essential to take the time to convert a technical subject into something simple, easy (fun!) to read and still fully informative. That's very difficult.

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: May I?
6

Wyville wrote:

Limburger wrote:

I agree with Wyville.

I didn't see anybody questioning your knowledge but never saw you levelling so there is dialogue instead of arguement.

What Wyville imo is basicly telling you that all the knowledge in the world is worthless if you can't portrait it to others aka peopleskills.

Comming from a technical medical background myself I learned a lot of theory but in the field is getting you nowhere if not open for a more emperical instead of theoretical approach.

If some posts something wrong you can jump on it or say the person might be mistaken resulting in totally different relationships.

You made me think about a guy at work, his education level is ok but with his approach to matters he never is going anywhere.

Many people teach, but few are good teachers. That's especially true in academics where people fight for acknowledgement by peers and forget that the knowledge they produce has to land somewhere where not everyone is a peer. The Richard Feynman's of this world are rare and far in between.

On an internet forum it is counter-productive to disseminate knowledge from an "Ivory Tower". The place is far too informal and the diversity of knowledge levels too large. To make a point it is essential to take the time to convert a technical subject into something simple, easy (fun!) to read and still fully informative. That's very difficult.

We probably all had the weird teacher nobody could figure what he or she was talking about. That "Ivory Tower" never works since people can't relate to the message,in particular if nobody is waiting for a message.

And on a forum like this mind the many different nationalities and native languages as well as written communication, that can be recieved differently than was meant.

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Cheers Mike

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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 13,825
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

ehliysehr wrote:

just for laughs!

The time of the year when Canon Fanboys whines about the new Camera Specs.

When Nikon Fanboys flocks to to this side of forum to troll.

Fanboys anticipating Ken Rockwell's announcement on what will be his new favorite camera.

Fanboys guessing the new DXO mark Score!

Fanboys creating fake accounts claiming they bought the camera but post no pictures.

Some buys the camera, post the picture praise the IQ and ergo but complains about the lack of DR they so they will return it and goes back to to the brand they love.

Feel free to add more

and thread after thread with these will max out at 149...because too much time on trolls hands

in the end, the two mfg's know they haven't delivered what we really want long term, it is just another iteration positioned to sell enough to make enough until the next iteration to make more and more.

the mfg's know they are pocketing more and more of the dollars earned in photography via gear iterations versus true innovations

- giant sucking sound to the big two in the past, but the sony's and fuji's and oly's can help us out of the big two oligopoly

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,903
Re: May I?
3

Limburger wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Limburger wrote:

I agree with Wyville.

Why am I not surprised at all by that?

I didn't see anybody questioning your knowledge but never saw you levelling so there is dialogue instead of arguement.

What Wyville imo is basicly telling you that all the knowledge in the world is worthless if you can't portrait it to others aka peopleskills.

Comming from a technical medical background myself I learned a lot of theory but in the field is getting you nowhere if not open for a more emperical instead of theoretical approach.

If some posts something wrong you can jump on it or say the person might be mistaken resulting in totally different relationships.

You made me think about a guy at work, his education level is ok but with his approach to matters he never is going anywhere.

So, you continue with argumentum ad hominem. This is very simple, in the end, you all worked out that I was right, because the evidence is compelling. You don't want me to be right, so the only way you have of defending your 'point of view' is to attack me personally, which is exactly what you have all done, with a vengeance. Your problem is, to paraphrase the old saying, that I actually enjoy wresting with pigs, and I don't mid getting dirty. So, since I'm quite happy to give back everything you throw at me, with a little more - you just escalate the personal attacks.

It doesn't bother me at all, I have quite enough peer esteem in my everyday life to satisfy my ego. I don't feel the need to stroke people's fragile egos here just to avoid the consequent personal attacks. In fact, I have fun with them.

First, if I was to agree with you I would be wrong.

Second, the so called attack on you is just what you do and blame me for doing.

I'm a strong believer in cause and effect. Also in evidence. So let's see who attacked who. Here is your ´╗┐entry´╗┐ into this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50961894

'Get a life.'

That's it. How about that?

And in terms of a satisfied ego I see the very oppsite. Everytime somebody disagrees with you you start to quote Latin (argumentum ad hominem).

Factually inaccurate. There are many posts here where people have disagreed with me and I haven't used latin.

The people that even point that out (try to help) to you,

Your the first person to pint out my supposed propensity for quoting latin, so that one doesn't hold up either. And if you think you and the others are 'trying to help', then you are either terminally dim, or being economical with the truth. Non-one here is 'trying to help' me. They are trying to undermine my credibility because they don't like what I say. That is what 'argumentum ad hominem' is all about. To quote form wikipedia:

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.[2] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely an irrelevance.

That is exactly and precisely what has been happening here. No-one had any evidence against what I said, so they chose to argue against me instead.

you go argumentum ad hominem (mirroring the reasoning).

No I don't. You are confusing trading derogatory comments with the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. If any one of you had had anything sensible to say, I would have discussed it sensibly and weighed whatever evidence you had produced against mine. As it happens all any of you wanted to do was produce arguments against me, rather than what I said, so I respond in kind. As I said, I don't care if the pig enjoys it, I enjoy it too.

I can read between the lines I see a lot more than I just posted.

LOL.

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Bob

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,590
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
1

MAC wrote:


and thread after thread with these will max out at 149...because too much time on trolls hands

in the end, the two mfg's know they haven't delivered what we really want long term, it is just another iteration positioned to sell enough to make enough until the next iteration to make more and more.

the mfg's know they are pocketing more and more of the dollars earned in photography via gear iterations versus true innovations

- giant sucking sound to the big two in the past, but the sony's and fuji's and oly's can help us out of the big two oligopoly

It's interesting that some people do really seem to think that manufacturers (in this case Canon and Nikon) are only interested in profit and ripping people off. And that 'gear iterations' apparently have little value compared with 'true innovations'. What exactly are 'true innovations'? Does something have to be completely new, as opposed to having an incremental improvement to have value? I'd argue that for something where reliability is important, e.g. cameras, cars, etc., an unproven innovation is not worth much at all. Now it could be different if you are talking about something like, say, F1 motor racing where evolution has reached a limit whereby most cars would perform almost identically unless radical innovations are made (some would say to circumvent the 'rules') that enable small (often very small) steps forward. However these are often at the expense of reliability and while that might be acceptable in the rarefied environment of F1 where engines often have a life of only a few thousand miles, or a couple of races, it sure as hell wouldn't be in a road car where life expectancy has to be in hundreds of thousands and for many years. Or in a camera.

But I'd agree that it is dangerous to have only two manufacturers seriously manufacturing DSLRs. Much as Canon and Nikon might think of the other as deadly competitors, there is actually a mutual respect and a knowledge that without the other there is not going to be a healthy market situation. Certainly Canon's attitude (I can't speak for Nikon's) is that Nikon's failure would be the last thing they would want. However I'm not sure Sony, Fuji or Olympus as quoted above can really help the DSLR position, although they might have an impact on the market via different formats.

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

meland wrote:

MAC wrote:


and thread after thread with these will max out at 149...because too much time on trolls hands

in the end, the two mfg's know they haven't delivered what we really want long term, it is just another iteration positioned to sell enough to make enough until the next iteration to make more and more.

the mfg's know they are pocketing more and more of the dollars earned in photography via gear iterations versus true innovations

- giant sucking sound to the big two in the past, but the sony's and fuji's and oly's can help us out of the big two oligopoly

It's interesting that some people do really seem to think that manufacturers (in this case Canon and Nikon) are only interested in profit and ripping people off. And that 'gear iterations' apparently have little value compared with 'true innovations'. What exactly are 'true innovations'? Does something have to be completely new, as opposed to having an incremental improvement to have value? I'd argue that for something where reliability is important, e.g. cameras, cars, etc., an unproven innovation is not worth much at all. Now it could be different if you are talking about something like, say, F1 motor racing where evolution has reached a limit whereby most cars would perform almost identically unless radical innovations are made (some would say to circumvent the 'rules') that enable small (often very small) steps forward. However these are often at the expense of reliability and while that might be acceptable in the rarefied environment of F1 where engines often have a life of only a few thousand miles, or a couple of races, it sure as hell wouldn't be in a road car where life expectancy has to be in hundreds of thousands and for many years. Or in a camera.

But I'd agree that it is dangerous to have only two manufacturers seriously manufacturing DSLRs. Much as Canon and Nikon might think of the other as deadly competitors, there is actually a mutual respect and a knowledge that without the other there is not going to be a healthy market situation. Certainly Canon's attitude (I can't speak for Nikon's) is that Nikon's failure would be the last thing they would want. However I'm not sure Sony, Fuji or Olympus as quoted above can really help the DSLR position, although they might have an impact on the market via different formats.

I agree.

Companies look for future existence of the organisation. Putting products on the market for max. profit isn't always the best to do if you want buyers to come back. The real profit (maxing the profit) is in the organisation itself concerning manufacturing proces, procuring etc. since a certain technology with a certain quality will cost a certain amount of money.

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Cheers Mike

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

MAC wrote:

- giant sucking sound to the big two in the past, but the sony's and fuji's and oly's can help us out of the big two oligopoly

I'm always hoping for Pentax too. They have pretty good products, especially for enthusiasts, but never really seem to get a foothold.

Olympus might be coming up with an E-5 successor this year and with m43 earning a lot of credit, maybe 43 will become more popular too. I understand they have great lenses.

MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 13,825
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

Wyville wrote:

MAC wrote:

- giant sucking sound to the big two in the past, but the sony's and fuji's and oly's can help us out of the big two oligopoly

I'm always hoping for Pentax too. They have pretty good products, especially for enthusiasts, but never really seem to get a foothold.

Olympus might be coming up with an E-5 successor this year and with m43 earning a lot of credit, maybe 43 will become more popular too. I understand they have great lenses.

agree, these 4/3 systems are starting to play bigger for:

being smaller systems and still great IQ

in body IS

but, the focus speeds and big buffers are lacking for action, so Canon and Nikon dominate when there is movement that must be captured to earn $

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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 13,825
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

meland wrote:

MAC wrote:


and thread after thread with these will max out at 149...because too much time on trolls hands

in the end, the two mfg's know they haven't delivered what we really want long term, it is just another iteration positioned to sell enough to make enough until the next iteration to make more and more.

the mfg's know they are pocketing more and more of the dollars earned in photography via gear iterations versus true innovations

- giant sucking sound to the big two in the past, but the sony's and fuji's and oly's can help us out of the big two oligopoly

It's interesting that some people do really seem to think that manufacturers (in this case Canon and Nikon) are only interested in profit and ripping people off. And that 'gear iterations' apparently have little value compared with 'true innovations'. What exactly are 'true innovations'? Does something have to be completely new, as opposed to having an incremental improvement to have value? I'd argue that for something where reliability is important, e.g. cameras, cars, etc., an unproven innovation is not worth much at all. Now it could be different if you are talking about something like, say, F1 motor racing where evolution has reached a limit whereby most cars would perform almost identically unless radical innovations are made (some would say to circumvent the 'rules') that enable small (often very small) steps forward. However these are often at the expense of reliability and while that might be acceptable in the rarefied environment of F1 where engines often have a life of only a few thousand miles, or a couple of races, it sure as hell wouldn't be in a road car where life expectancy has to be in hundreds of thousands and for many years. Or in a camera.

But I'd agree that it is dangerous to have only two manufacturers seriously manufacturing DSLRs. Much as Canon and Nikon might think of the other as deadly competitors, there is actually a mutual respect and a knowledge that without the other there is not going to be a healthy market situation. Certainly Canon's attitude (I can't speak for Nikon's) is that Nikon's failure would be the last thing they would want. However I'm not sure Sony, Fuji or Olympus as quoted above can really help the DSLR position, although they might have an impact on the market via different formats.

if Sony chose not to risk the billion dollars in the sensor plant we might have a different Nikon

I hear ya on the other Companies, haven't kept up with Canon and Nikon with focus systems and speed that can compete with action photography

 MAC's gear list:MAC's gear list
Canon EOS 6D Canon EOS Rebel SL1 Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS Rebel T7i Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM +8 more
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