70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?

Started Feb 28, 2013 | Discussions
Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
1

bobn2 wrote:

WilbaW wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

What's interesting is your efforts to deny the simple truth about how Canon builds its cameras.

No, I'm not denying it,

Erm, well actually you are.

I'm just pointing out how you operate.

All I do is point out the unvarnished (unpainted) truth when someone posts something that is untrue. Mostly its something they honestly think to be true, but isn't. In this case, it is an impression that Canon marketing has worked quite hard to give. Now people take to the truth in different ways. Some accept it in the face of the evidence, some try hard to deny it - though why, I don't know. I never said it was a bad thing, the way Canon builds its cameras, in fact in the main it's a good thing (though I do think Nikon's internal arrangements are generally tidier and more elegant, I doubt that has much real effect on practice).

But you want to insist that 'maybe its just that magnesium painted black looks like plastic'.

LOL, so saying "maybe..." is insisting. Right.

In this context, yes. The simple inference from seeing something that looks like plastic is that it's plastic (and in this case, that is the correct inference) - so, instead of accepting the simple and correct one, you choose to raise a sophisticated alternative. Pretty unlikely as it happens. Why would Canon paint this metal chassis when they paint neither the metal chassis in the 1D series, nor the insides of their metal skin panels?

Get a life.

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Cheers Mike

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,868
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
1

Limburger wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

WilbaW wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

What's interesting is your efforts to deny the simple truth about how Canon builds its cameras.

No, I'm not denying it,

Erm, well actually you are.

I'm just pointing out how you operate.

All I do is point out the unvarnished (unpainted) truth when someone posts something that is untrue. Mostly its something they honestly think to be true, but isn't. In this case, it is an impression that Canon marketing has worked quite hard to give. Now people take to the truth in different ways. Some accept it in the face of the evidence, some try hard to deny it - though why, I don't know. I never said it was a bad thing, the way Canon builds its cameras, in fact in the main it's a good thing (though I do think Nikon's internal arrangements are generally tidier and more elegant, I doubt that has much real effect on practice).

But you want to insist that 'maybe its just that magnesium painted black looks like plastic'.

LOL, so saying "maybe..." is insisting. Right.

In this context, yes. The simple inference from seeing something that looks like plastic is that it's plastic (and in this case, that is the correct inference) - so, instead of accepting the simple and correct one, you choose to raise a sophisticated alternative. Pretty unlikely as it happens. Why would Canon paint this metal chassis when they paint neither the metal chassis in the 1D series, nor the insides of their metal skin panels?

Get a life.

Funny how some people take against the simple truth.

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Bob

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
7

bobn2 wrote:

Limburger wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

WilbaW wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

What's interesting is your efforts to deny the simple truth about how Canon builds its cameras.

No, I'm not denying it,

Erm, well actually you are.

I'm just pointing out how you operate.

All I do is point out the unvarnished (unpainted) truth when someone posts something that is untrue. Mostly its something they honestly think to be true, but isn't. In this case, it is an impression that Canon marketing has worked quite hard to give. Now people take to the truth in different ways. Some accept it in the face of the evidence, some try hard to deny it - though why, I don't know. I never said it was a bad thing, the way Canon builds its cameras, in fact in the main it's a good thing (though I do think Nikon's internal arrangements are generally tidier and more elegant, I doubt that has much real effect on practice).

But you want to insist that 'maybe its just that magnesium painted black looks like plastic'.

LOL, so saying "maybe..." is insisting. Right.

In this context, yes. The simple inference from seeing something that looks like plastic is that it's plastic (and in this case, that is the correct inference) - so, instead of accepting the simple and correct one, you choose to raise a sophisticated alternative. Pretty unlikely as it happens. Why would Canon paint this metal chassis when they paint neither the metal chassis in the 1D series, nor the insides of their metal skin panels?

Get a life.

Funny how some people take against the simple truth.

My point was that you failed to convince people so move on.

Funny that some people don't get that, in other words: no matter how right or wrong you are you're making a laughing stock out of yourself.

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Cheers Mike

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WilbaW
WilbaW Forum Pro • Posts: 11,594
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
5

bobn2 wrote:

WilbaW wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

What's interesting is your efforts to deny the simple truth about how Canon builds its cameras.

No, I'm not denying it,

Erm, well actually you are.

Quote me denying that the 7D mirrorbox is plastic.

I'm just pointing out how you operate.

And here it is again.

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elfroggio
MOD elfroggio Senior Member • Posts: 2,954
One comment about plastics
5

Somehow, people are implying that plastics are bad and metals are good. Not always, plastics can be manufactured to higher precision than metals and plastics withstand much wider temperature ranges without deformation than many metals.

In the 60s, that is the 1960s, and the 70s plastics were always low quality. Now, in many cases plastics are as strong and reliable as many metals. Plastics are fantastic in small size, cars or truck sizes that's another story.

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Thanks
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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
6

bobn2 wrote:

Wyville wrote:

Feel free to do so, but don't expect me to take it seriously.

I think that being taken seriously by someone who chooses to shape their views as you do is probably not a good thing.

I'm quite happy that sensible people take me seriously. Being seen as a nuisance by fanboys is not a bad thing.

Let's talk about knowledge and being sensible.

I come here for a bit of fun, it's my hobby after all. I simply like talking about photography gear and never claim to be an expert on these matters, nor do I take myself seriously.

I know you have a lot of engineering knowledge and that part I take seriously. That is logical since I think it's important to respect people's expertise, and in matters of matter of my own expertise I expect to be taken seriously as well.

The problem I have with your posts is that you appear to be going around posting remarks you very well know will cause responses (like claiming the D300 is better at all levels than the 7D on a Canon forum), that you know people can easily misinterpret (like the semantic game about "shell" and "chassis" etc.), that you know lead to your area of expertise. All that once you spot any type of mistake you can pounce on it and "wow" everyone with your expert knowledge.

Even if, no 'especially' if your knowledge is at a far higher level than anyone else's, it is your responsibility not to play games, but to respectfully inform. Didactically your posts are extremely poor and seem to serve no other purpose than to make you feel good about yourself. That​ is what I don't take seriously. A supposed expert going around an internet forum trying to impress lay people is not something I can take very seriously. And I recognize it because I'm embrarrassed to say I did the same thing during my first few years at uni, except I grew out of it.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,868
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
4

Limburger wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Limburger wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

WilbaW wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

What's interesting is your efforts to deny the simple truth about how Canon builds its cameras.

No, I'm not denying it,

Erm, well actually you are.

I'm just pointing out how you operate.

All I do is point out the unvarnished (unpainted) truth when someone posts something that is untrue. Mostly its something they honestly think to be true, but isn't. In this case, it is an impression that Canon marketing has worked quite hard to give. Now people take to the truth in different ways. Some accept it in the face of the evidence, some try hard to deny it - though why, I don't know. I never said it was a bad thing, the way Canon builds its cameras, in fact in the main it's a good thing (though I do think Nikon's internal arrangements are generally tidier and more elegant, I doubt that has much real effect on practice).

But you want to insist that 'maybe its just that magnesium painted black looks like plastic'.

LOL, so saying "maybe..." is insisting. Right.

In this context, yes. The simple inference from seeing something that looks like plastic is that it's plastic (and in this case, that is the correct inference) - so, instead of accepting the simple and correct one, you choose to raise a sophisticated alternative. Pretty unlikely as it happens. Why would Canon paint this metal chassis when they paint neither the metal chassis in the 1D series, nor the insides of their metal skin panels?

Get a life.

Funny how some people take against the simple truth.

My point was that you failed to convince people so move on.

I'm amused by people who presume to speak for others in general. The truth of the matter is that I failed to convince a few diehard fanboys who will never be convinced.

Funny that some people don't get that, in other words: no matter how right or wrong you are you're making a laughing stock out of yourself.

The reverse is true. All you're doing is associating yourself with a little clique of fanboys. You can be big amongst them, but their esteem isn't really worth having. I'll always be attacked by the likes of them, because I say things they don't want to be said. For anyone else, the truth is a good thing.

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Bob

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: One comment about plastics
2

elfroggio wrote:

Somehow, people are implying that plastics are bad and metals are good. Not always, plastics can be manufactured to higher precision than metals and plastics withstand much wider temperature ranges without deformation than many metals.

In the 60s, that is the 1960s, and the 70s plastics were always low quality. Now, in many cases plastics are as strong and reliable as many metals. Plastics are fantastic in small size, cars or truck sizes that's another story.

Indeed. I too had a natural aversion for plastic, despite knowing that plastics were perfectly capable of doing the job. These days I don't care anymore. I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations.

For me my main concern is that the camera feels solid, like a brick. I couldn't live with my D80 and buying the 7D was a real relief. Suddenly I was perfectly confident in my camera and didn't mind it being bumped. Makes going out and shooting a lot more relaxing!

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,868
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
4

Wyville wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Wyville wrote:

Feel free to do so, but don't expect me to take it seriously.

I think that being taken seriously by someone who chooses to shape their views as you do is probably not a good thing.

I'm quite happy that sensible people take me seriously. Being seen as a nuisance by fanboys is not a bad thing.

Let's talk about knowledge and being sensible.

If you want.

I come here for a bit of fun, it's my hobby after all. I simply like talking about photography gear and never claim to be an expert on these matters, nor do I take myself seriously.

Now, that seems to be in contradiction with the earnest tone of this post, doesn't it. It shows all the signs of someone taking themselves too seriously.

I know you have a lot of engineering knowledge and that part I take seriously. That is logical since I think it's important to respect people's expertise, and in matters of matter of my own expertise I expect to be taken seriously as well.

Certainly, anyone who displays expertise, I take seriously.

The problem I have with your posts is that you appear to be going around posting remarks you very well know will cause responses

Well, that is rather the point of forums, isn't it? They get a bit dull if no-one responds to anyone else's posts.

(like claiming the D300 is better at all levels than the 7D on a Canon forum)

I never ever claimed that. So you can take down that straw man.

, that you know people can easily misinterpret (like the semantic game about "shell" and "chassis" etc.),

Now you are engaging in a semantic game, by trying o make out that there is no meaningful difference between the concept of 'shell' and 'chassis;, and you're doing it because you want to deny that the structural load bearing parts of your brand of camera are made of one material while the structural load bearing parts of a competitors are made of another. Let's look at the dictionary definitions of the two words:

From Dictionary.com we have the relevant part for 'shell':

that you know lead to your area of expertise. All that once you spot any type of mistake you can pounce on it and "wow" everyone with your expert knowledge.

I'm not about wowing people with my expert knowledge. I get every chance to do that in my day job, and in my other jobs. In those I'm identified by my full name, and the kudos comes right back to me. What I do here is correct misinformation, because misinformation has a way of growing and confuses many people.

Even if, no 'especially' if your knowledge is at a far higher level than anyone else's, it is your responsibility not to play games, but to respectfully inform.

Which is what I do. The disrespect only comes when people like you choose to disrespect me just for telling the truth, and then you find that I will give as well as you do.

Didactically your posts are extremely poor and seem to serve no other purpose than to make you feel good about yourself. That​ is what I don't take seriously. A supposed expert going around an internet forum trying to impress lay people is not something I can take very seriously. And I recognize it because I'm embrarrassed to say I did the same thing during my first few years at uni, except I grew out of it.

You are perfectly entitled to your view of my posts, but many people disagree with you, and ones that I have some respect for. So speaking personally, I don't care what you think on this at all.

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Bob

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: One comment about plastics
3

Wyville wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

Somehow, people are implying that plastics are bad and metals are good. Not always, plastics can be manufactured to higher precision than metals and plastics withstand much wider temperature ranges without deformation than many metals.

In the 60s, that is the 1960s, and the 70s plastics were always low quality. Now, in many cases plastics are as strong and reliable as many metals. Plastics are fantastic in small size, cars or truck sizes that's another story.

Indeed. I too had a natural aversion for plastic, despite knowing that plastics were perfectly capable of doing the job. These days I don't care anymore. I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations.

For me my main concern is that the camera feels solid, like a brick. I couldn't live with my D80 and buying the 7D was a real relief. Suddenly I was perfectly confident in my camera and didn't mind it being bumped. Makes going out and shooting a lot more relaxing!

Same here.

It's like overtaking on the highway with a capable car/engine, you know the power is there when needed.

-- hide signature --

Cheers Mike

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,868
Re: One comment about plastics
4

elfroggio wrote:

Somehow, people are implying that plastics are bad and metals are good. Not always, plastics can be manufactured to higher precision than metals and plastics withstand much wider temperature ranges without deformation than many metals.

In the 60s, that is the 1960s, and the 70s plastics were always low quality. Now, in many cases plastics are as strong and reliable as many metals. Plastics are fantastic in small size, cars or truck sizes that's another story.

That is exactly the case. Of course plastics have different properties and are used differently from metals and a good design engineer will design for the material that is to be used. There is no way just by knowing the material used that you can decide which is better. You'd have to be party to all the design calculations that went on.

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,868
Re: One comment about plastics
2

Wyville wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

Somehow, people are implying that plastics are bad and metals are good. Not always, plastics can be manufactured to higher precision than metals and plastics withstand much wider temperature ranges without deformation than many metals.

In the 60s, that is the 1960s, and the 70s plastics were always low quality. Now, in many cases plastics are as strong and reliable as many metals. Plastics are fantastic in small size, cars or truck sizes that's another story.

Indeed. I too had a natural aversion for plastic, despite knowing that plastics were perfectly capable of doing the job.

It's not 'natural', it is a cultural response. There is no innate characteristic that gives a person a greater affinity for metal than plastic.

These days I don't care anymore. I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations.

So, your measure for quality is the brand name. That is not a surprise to me.

For me my main concern is that the camera feels solid, like a brick. I couldn't live with my D80 and buying the 7D was a real relief. Suddenly I was perfectly confident in my camera and didn't mind it being bumped. Makes going out and shooting a lot more relaxing!

But, you have no information that the 7D is in any way more robust that a D80, all you have is a general impression that Canon's marketing has given you. That is why they are as successful as they are.

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,868
Re: One comment about plastics
3

Limburger wrote:

Wyville wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

Somehow, people are implying that plastics are bad and metals are good. Not always, plastics can be manufactured to higher precision than metals and plastics withstand much wider temperature ranges without deformation than many metals.

In the 60s, that is the 1960s, and the 70s plastics were always low quality. Now, in many cases plastics are as strong and reliable as many metals. Plastics are fantastic in small size, cars or truck sizes that's another story.

Indeed. I too had a natural aversion for plastic, despite knowing that plastics were perfectly capable of doing the job. These days I don't care anymore. I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations.

For me my main concern is that the camera feels solid, like a brick. I couldn't live with my D80 and buying the 7D was a real relief. Suddenly I was perfectly confident in my camera and didn't mind it being bumped. Makes going out and shooting a lot more relaxing!

Same here.

It's like overtaking on the highway with a capable car/engine, you know the power is there when needed.

Except in this case you don't 'know the power is there'. With a car there will be a set of figures that tell you the power and torque that the engine produces. Canon have produced no figures that indicate that the 7D is more robust than a D80, all you are going on is an impression gained from their marketing material.

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Bob

nedelcho Regular Member • Posts: 402
No matter how they are made...
4

No matter how they are made (plastic or metal), 7D and D300s are marvelous cameras. Not at all like D7000 which is lower cost for a reason. I don't know why, but quality control became lower in Nikon in recent models and higher in Canon. D300s and 7D are build like a tanks and they fail very rarely. I work in a shop for photo equipment and you wouldn't believe how many D7000 bodies customers are bringing for service. Stuck shutter button, LCD problems, problems with autofocus not working at all or such a vast front/back focus with all their lenses, that in camera MFA can't help (do you believe 18-105VR that need -15 MFA to focus properly). Once we tested 3 samples of 35mm f/1.8G on one customer's nikon body and all of them had focus issue (we tested on other body as well) and 50mm f/1.4G or 85/1.8G didn't have problems at all on his body. Recent trend is problems with D5100, we have 3 bodies in a row that had stuck mirror. Previous generation of nikon cameras is very different, it was better in therms of quality control. No problems at all with D300s and D700. We also rent cameras and D300s/D700 have not been serviced once, in the 3 or 4 years we rent them.

Everyone think that current Canon cameras are overpriced. I think not. At the moment Canon have better quality control and this cost money. Their bodies are more expensive for a reason (for example, look at lens rentals blog posts). Nikon are very aggressive with pricing and features and everyone think they are the best, but in practical use it is not so and fanboys will not admit it. The camera does not only need the best features, but has to be reliable and get the picture no matter what. Unfortunately current nikon generation is not as good build as canon's.

My response is to bobn2, not to Wyville (the clear the confusion).

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: 70D and 7Dmk2 is coming what to expect?
5

bobn2 wrote:

 What I do here is correct misinformation, because misinformation has a way of growing and confuses many people.

Unfortunately, you are not correcting misinformation.

Teaching is about knowing your audience and understanding their knowledge level and mindset before engaging in dissemination. You are doing none of those. Your language use is derogative, you give every impression of looking down on your audience. You seem to care nothing about how information is taken up by your audience and fail to adjust when (as is abundantly clear on these boards) your audience just gets fed up with you.

Correcting misinformation is not about you or your expertise, it's about approaching your audience with care and integrity. Since you show none, your efforts fail and will continue to do so unless you change.

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,840
Re: One comment about plastics
1

bobn2 wrote:

Limburger wrote:

Wyville wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

Somehow, people are implying that plastics are bad and metals are good. Not always, plastics can be manufactured to higher precision than metals and plastics withstand much wider temperature ranges without deformation than many metals.

In the 60s, that is the 1960s, and the 70s plastics were always low quality. Now, in many cases plastics are as strong and reliable as many metals. Plastics are fantastic in small size, cars or truck sizes that's another story.

Indeed. I too had a natural aversion for plastic, despite knowing that plastics were perfectly capable of doing the job. These days I don't care anymore. I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations.

For me my main concern is that the camera feels solid, like a brick. I couldn't live with my D80 and buying the 7D was a real relief. Suddenly I was perfectly confident in my camera and didn't mind it being bumped. Makes going out and shooting a lot more relaxing!

Same here.

It's like overtaking on the highway with a capable car/engine, you know the power is there when needed.

Except in this case you don't 'know the power is there'. With a car there will be a set of figures that tell you the power and torque that the engine produces. Canon have produced no figures that indicate that the 7D is more robust than a D80, all you are going on is an impression gained from their marketing material.

I already upgraded,try convincing people that didn't yet.

If somebody is going to kick your ass,there are also no figures if you're about to brake some bones yet still there is a seriuous change it will be the case.

Go back to benchmarking toiletpaper.

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Cheers Mike

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,868
Re: No matter how they are made...
2

nedelcho wrote:

No matter how they are made (plastic or metal), 7D and D300s are marvelous cameras. Not at all like D7000 which is lower cost for a reason. I don't know why, but quality control became lower in Nikon in recent models and higher in Canon. D300s and 7D are build like a tanks and they fail very rarely. I work in a shop for photo equipment and you wouldn't believe how many D7000 bodies customers are bringing for service. Stuck shutter button, LCD problems, problems with autofocus not working at all or such a vast front/back focus with all their lenses, that in camera MFA can't help (do you believe 18-105VR that need -15 MFA to focus properly). Once we tested 3 samples of 35mm f/1.8G on one customer's nikon body and all of them had focus issue (we tested on other body as well) and 50mm f/1.4G or 85/1.8G didn't have problems at all on his body. Recent trend is problems with D5100, we have 3 bodies in a row that had stuck mirror. Previous generation of nikon cameras is very different, it was better in therms of quality control. No problems at all with D300s and D700. We also rent cameras and D300s/D700 have not been serviced once, in the 3 or 4 years we rent them.

Everyone think that current Canon cameras are overpriced. I think not. At the moment Canon have better quality control and this cost money. Their bodies are more expensive for a reason (for example, look at lens rentals blog posts). Nikon are very aggressive with pricing and features and everyone think they are the best, but in practical use it is not so and fanboys will not admit it. The camera does not only need the best features, but has to be reliable and get the picture no matter what. Unfortunately current nikon generation is not as good build as canon's.

My response is to bobn2, not to Wyville (the clear the confusion).

OK, I'll reply then. Yes, I agree with most of what you said, perhaps with the exception of the 'built like tanks' bit - no, really neither of them are. The failure rate hasn't really to do with 'being built like tanks' but with detail failures of bits and pieces that have nothing to do with tank-like build but with component sourcing and QA. I think this is where Canon's iterative product policy pays dividends, even though Canon fans moan about it. There is rarely a Canon camera which is not just a development of the one before it, and so most of the designs and parts are thoroughly shaken down. Take for instance the D600 and 6D. The D600 is a brand new camera, every bit of it is new. The 6D is a rework of the 5DII, the design of which goes back to the EOS-30. Similarly, the D7000 was completely new. The D300 was not, it was mostly a D2X, and the 7D was mostly a 50D. Designing things that are completely new is always a risk. Sometimes it goes OK, but others it really doesn't. I think Nikon's other recent problem is that having had two plants destroyed, they are bringing new products to market before they are ready. In retrospect, Canon's delay on the 1D X was probably wise. If they had released it with bugs, it would have been a disaster.

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Bob

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: One comment about plastics
4

bobn2 wrote:

It's not 'natural', it is a cultural response. There is no innate characteristic that gives a person a greater affinity for metal than plastic.

"Natural" or "cultural" is a matter of semantics and not important.

So, your measure for quality is the brand name. That is not a surprise to me.

Derogative and presumptuous. I have no brand loyalty and love Nikon's products as much as those of Canon.

But, you have no information that the 7D is in any way more robust that a D80, all you have is a general impression that Canon's marketing has given you. That is why they are as successful as they are.

Yes, it's all down to marketing... Oh wait no, I used a D80 for a year and went and tried out the 7D and D300 to see how different the feel would be and preferred the build of the latter two over the D80. You know, we buy luxury items because we like them. I don't justify it beyond that.

WilbaW
WilbaW Forum Pro • Posts: 11,594
Re: One comment about plastics
1

bobn2 wrote:

Wyville wrote:

These days I don't care anymore. I know that if Canon produces a camera at a certain segment level, that it will live up to expectations.

So, your measure for quality is the brand name. That is not a surprise to me.

Strawman. Don't fall for it Wyville.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,849
Re: One comment about plastics
1

WilbaW wrote:

Strawman. Don't fall for it Wyville.

Don't worry.

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