7d camera 430ex11 flash

Started Feb 7, 2013 | Questions
Ironmanbud1940 Junior Member • Posts: 44
7d camera 430ex11 flash

7d camera with off camera 430ex11. How do I set up the flash to fire as a slave so I can use with my promaster 7500edef flash. Do not want it to be auotmatic set to camera. It  works great as a slave by itslef. I can't balance the two flashes and the camera flash.

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Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,835
Re: 7d camera 430ex11 flash

Ironmanbud1940 wrote:

7d camera with off camera 430ex11. How do I set up the flash to fire as a slave so I can use with my promaster 7500edef flash. Do not want it to be auotmatic set to camera. It works great as a slave by itslef. I can't balance the two flashes and the camera flash.

Are they set to the same channel?

The 430 and pop up can be set how much they contribute ratio wise, the third party I guess (not sure) you have to set to manual and slave (not sure either but worth trying).

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Cheers Mike

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Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,835
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Ironmanbud1940 wrote:

7d camera with off camera 430ex11. How do I set up the flash to fire as a slave so I can use with my promaster 7500edef flash. Do not want it to be auotmatic set to camera. It works great as a slave by itslef. I can't balance the two flashes and the camera flash.

You put them in different groups, I haven't fiddled with this myself but I find it a very interesting question.

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Cheers Mike

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OP Ironmanbud1940 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

When I was using the 7d and promaster flash as a slave. The flash on the 7d would trigger the flash on the slave promaster. When using the new 430ex11 as my 2nd slave I can not use the flash to trigger the new flash without setting a channel and e-ttl mode. I would like to fire both with just the flash and both slaves from flash alone. hope I can do this or my promaster will be of no good to me.

thank in advance

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Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,835
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Ironmanbud1940 wrote:

When I was using the 7d and promaster flash as a slave. The flash on the 7d would trigger the flash on the slave promaster. When using the new 430ex11 as my 2nd slave I can not use the flash to trigger the new flash without setting a channel and e-ttl mode. I would like to fire both with just the flash and both slaves from flash alone. hope I can do this or my promaster will be of no good to me.

thank in advance

That sounds odd because how would the camera or flash now there is another flash out there. IMO it should be triggered because the pop up gives the signal (in line of sight) to the slaves to do what they are set to do (automated or manually).

Time for the experts I guess, imo you should get this to work.

I am no expert (obviously ) on this subject, just trying to think along.

But I do believe the pop up has to trigger both as slave.

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Cheers Mike

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Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 23,736
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Ironmanbud1940 wrote:

When I was using the 7d and promaster flash as a slave. The flash on the 7d would trigger the flash on the slave promaster. When using the new 430ex11 as my 2nd slave I can not use the flash to trigger the new flash without setting a channel and e-ttl mode. I would like to fire both with just the flash and both slaves from flash alone. hope I can do this or my promaster will be of no good to me.

thank in advance

The 430ex can only be triggered in E-TTL mode; it doesn't have an optical-only slave mode.  If the Promaster isn't e-ttl compatible I'm not sure how reliably the 2 can be used together.  This is one reason I've stayed with Canon flashes; I can use 4 together and it's a very reliable and repeatable system.

Mark

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,835
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Mark B. wrote:

Ironmanbud1940 wrote:

When I was using the 7d and promaster flash as a slave. The flash on the 7d would trigger the flash on the slave promaster. When using the new 430ex11 as my 2nd slave I can not use the flash to trigger the new flash without setting a channel and e-ttl mode. I would like to fire both with just the flash and both slaves from flash alone. hope I can do this or my promaster will be of no good to me.

thank in advance

The 430ex can only be triggered in E-TTL mode; it doesn't have an optical-only slave mode. If the Promaster isn't e-ttl compatible I'm not sure how reliably the 2 can be used together. This is one reason I've stayed with Canon flashes; I can use 4 together and it's a very reliable and repeatable system.

Mark

Thanks Mark,

I am learning here as well.

But you can't trigger both by pop up in ettl set as slave?

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Cheers Mike

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OP Ironmanbud1940 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

That is what I was afraid of. I bought the promaster years ago. Worked great off camera. But when I bought the new 430ex11 I no longer could get them to work together.

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Austin_Luker
Austin_Luker Contributing Member • Posts: 606
Flash Zebra has what you need

This link to Flash Zebras Website  has what you need a hotshoe adapter for the 430EXII with a built in slave eye.

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OP Ironmanbud1940 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: Flash Zebra has what you need

That is a good alterative. Thanks

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ihgold2 Forum Member • Posts: 71
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Mark B. wrote:

The 430ex can only be triggered in E-TTL mode; it doesn't have an optical-only slave mode. ...

Mark

I'm actually experimenting with this myself.  I'm a total novice and still learning, so forgive me for anything silly I might say ...

But if you press and hold the Mode button for 2 seconds, the 430EX will go into Manual when it's a slave to the popup.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The confusing thing for me is, when it's a slave, you can see the distance scale you can see when it's on the shoe.  So it's kind of hard to know what power you want to use, other than trial-and-error (or I suppose by taking a reading with the flash on the camera and then removing it?).

-ira

Limburger
Limburger Veteran Member • Posts: 7,835
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ihgold2 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

The 430ex can only be triggered in E-TTL mode; it doesn't have an optical-only slave mode. ...

Mark

I'm actually experimenting with this myself. I'm a total novice and still learning, so forgive me for anything silly I might say ...

But if you press and hold the Mode button for 2 seconds, the 430EX will go into Manual when it's a slave to the popup.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The confusing thing for me is, when it's a slave, you can see the distance scale you can see when it's on the shoe. So it's kind of hard to know what power you want to use, other than trial-and-error (or I suppose by taking a reading with the flash on the camera and then removing it?).

-ira

The scale only apears when distance and flash output can be calculated. When you put it up to the ceiling the scale dissapears as well, because the system doesn't know the distance (ceiling hight) and how much the lightbeam should be focussed or spread same for power.

Basicly off shoe the distance from flash to subject changes so the scale makes no sense anymore.

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Cheers Mike

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ihgold2 Forum Member • Posts: 71
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Limburger wrote:

The scale only apears when distance and flash output can be calculated. When you put it up to the ceiling the scale dissapears as well, because the system doesn't know the distance (ceiling hight) and how much the lightbeam should be focussed or spread same for power.

Basicly off shoe the distance from flash to subject changes so the scale makes no sense anymore.

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Cheers Mike

I just mean the distance I think.  Maybe "scale" isn't correct?  I have a 430EX, and there's no scale (range) per se.  There's just a single distance displayed, which I thought was just a function of the aperture, ISO, and flash power.  If that's the case (and I'm not overly confident that it is :-)), then shouldn't it be true whether the flash is on the camera, off, master, or slave?

-ira

TTMartin
TTMartin Veteran Member • Posts: 7,304
Re: Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Ironmanbud1940 wrote:

When I was using the 7d and promaster flash as a slave. The flash on the 7d would trigger the flash on the slave promaster. When using the new 430ex11 as my 2nd slave I can not use the flash to trigger the new flash without setting a channel and e-ttl mode. I would like to fire both with just the flash and both slaves from flash alone. hope I can do this or my promaster will be of no good to me.

thank in advance

I don't think you out of luck.

Since the Promaster 7500edef can work as a slave controlled by your 7D. (Promaster 7500edef Instruction Manual) But, does so in a manual mode.

I'm guessing you would just set the Promaster 7500edef as you always have, and IGNORE that it is there, when setting up the 7D and the 430EX II using Master Slave E-TTL.

Just experiment and I'm guessing you'll get it to work.

Let us know how it goes.

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apersson850 Senior Member • Posts: 1,256
Re: Same confusion again
1

No, that flash can't be controlled by a 7D as a slave flash. Not in the sense the 430 EX II can.

The reason for this confusion is that there are different sorts of optically controlled slave flashes.

First there is the dumb slave. It has a sensor, which reads when another flash fires. When it sees that, it will fire too, at the setting it has. The reaction is so quick, that the slave flash' will hit the sensor in the camera before the shutter is closed again. To be fast enough, the slave flash has to fire right away, as soon as it sees any other flash in the room. The Promaster is such a dumb slave.

Then there are the smart slaves. Canon's optical slave flash system is designed to be of this type. It allows E-TTL with slave flashes, in spite of E-TTL requiring flashes to first fire a metering flash, then accept power level setup data, get ready for firing when the picture is taken and finally actually fire when the controller tells them to. The 430 EX II is such a flash. (And it's 430 EX 2, not 430 EX 11).

It also allows flashes to be in up to three different groups, plus the flash on the 7D, which can make up a group of its own.

When using E-TTL photography, with slave flashes in the three groups A, B and C, the sequence is as follows:

  1. Two byte sequence sent out to request metering flash from slaves in group A.
  2. Slaves in group A fire, camera registers their accumulated strenght.
  3. Two byte sequence sent out to request metering flash from slaves in group B.
  4. Slaves in group B fire, camera registers their accumulated strength.
  5. Two byte sequence sent out to request metering flash from slaves in group C.
  6. Slaves in group C fire, camera registers their accumulated strength.
  7. The camera calculates the proper power level for the three different slave groups, according to the setup (ratios and different FEC).
  8. Five byte command sequence sent out to set the power level of the three different slave groups, and to tell them to get ready to act as stupid slaves, because the picture is soon to be taken.
  9. Shutter starts opening.
  10. When the shutter is open, the camera's master flash (internal or external) fires in sync with the shutter. The slaves, now for a brief moment set to be dumb slaves, react immediately and fire according to their power levels set by the command sequence of flashes.
  11. Shutter closes.

If, for some reason, the actual taking of the picture fails, then there is no sync flash to trigger the slaves from. Since the slaves have to be ready for a new attempt, they quickly times out from their dumb slave mode, and starts listening to command sequences again. This is the technical reason for why second curtain sync isn't possible with this type of optical slave flash systems.
Anyway, since the Promaster is always in the dumb slave mode, if you set it to slave mode at all, it will not be able to discern what's command sequence flashes and what's the sync flash. It may very well fire, but not at the right time.

If you use manual flash, with slaves, with Canon's system, only bullets 8-11 above are executed. But there's still that power level command flash prior to the sync flash, so that's just as confusing to a dumb slave.

Some dumb slaves are semi-smart, in that you can set them to ignore E-TTL metering flashes. But that only works when being slaved to an E-TTL flash that's directly on the camera. If no external slaves are involved, then only one metering flash is sent out, prior to the sync flash, so a dumb slave doesn't have to be any smarter than being able to count to two. But when using the advanced slave modes, it's not possible to know in advance the exact amount of control flashes before the sync flash, so you have to understand that protocol to be able to participate. And if you do, you can just as well implement it fully.

Note that Canon's flashes do have a way of only semi-participating in the advanced external flash system. A slave in Canon's optical system can be set to be an independent slave. In such a case, the power level of that slave is fixed, and it has to be set on the flash itself, since it's not coummunicated through the command sequences referenced above. But the flash is still smart enough to know how to filter out the command sequences from the sync flash, so it will still fire at the right moment.

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Anders

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Y0GI Veteran Member • Posts: 5,233
Re: Flash Zebra has what you need

Austin_Luker wrote:

This link to Flash Zebras Website has what you need a hotshoe adapter for the 430EXII with a built in slave eye.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but at the Flash Zebra site it says "The triggering flash must not emit a pre-flash as this will prematurely fire the connected flash"

And further that the Flash Zebra:

"Will NOT work with:
Nikon SB-600
Canon 220EX, 360EX, 430EX, 430EX II, 550EX, 580EX, 580EX II
Vivitar 285HV — new version (older 285HV version not tested yet)
Sigma 500DX ST, Sigma 530DX ST
Young Nuo YN-460, YN-462"

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apersson850 Senior Member • Posts: 1,256
Re: Flash Zebra has what you need

Set the triggering flash to manual mode, and you'll have no metering pre-flash.

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OP Ironmanbud1940 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: Same confusion again

Very informative. Thanks. I think I will buy 1 more 430ex2. And not use the promaster. for studo shots.

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apersson850 Senior Member • Posts: 1,256
Re: Same confusion again

Using any number of Canon's flashes, like the 430 EX II (or third party flashes with the same remote slave control compatibility), you can use all functions available for Canon's optically controlled slave flash system.

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Anders

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