Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"

Started Feb 4, 2013 | Discussions
proef Regular Member • Posts: 155
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"

I haven't realized that anything less than 2.5 stars was a "negative" vote. I've assumed the stars were cumulative, and the entry with the most stars won.

As to "sandbagging", I've given a half star vote when the entry did not follow the rules. For example, the "chair" challenge rules stipulated no closeups of chairs -- only chairs placed within a scene would qualify. Yet there were a number of chair closeups that were not DQ'd.

Finally. a question. How does not voting on an entry within a challenge in which one votes for other entries affect the score of the "unvoted" entry?

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Tim A2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,099
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"

proef wrote:

I haven't realized that anything less than 2.5 stars was a "negative" vote. I've assumed the stars were cumulative, and the entry with the most stars won.

DPR uses a Bayesian average to rank entries.

As to "sandbagging", I've given a half star vote when the entry did not follow the rules. For example, the "chair" challenge rules stipulated no closeups of chairs -- only chairs placed within a scene would qualify. Yet there were a number of chair closeups that were not DQ'd.

That is a common practice.

Finally. a question. How does not voting on an entry within a challenge in which one votes for other entries affect the score of the "unvoted" entry?

The more votes an entry gets the more weight is given to it's actual simple average vote. A good example is the recent "Birding" challenge. The 1st place entry had a slightly lower average than that of the 2nd place entry, but had enough votes for it's actual average to be used. The second place was given a lower score because it had fewer votes and enough weight was given to something lower to reduce it's actual average to a lower final score. The idea is that since the 1st place had more votes, more confidence could be placed in it's actual simple average. Of course the exact factors and thresholds used in the formula are not known.

Tim

Deleted pending purge Senior Member • Posts: 1,197
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"

proef wrote:

I haven't realized that anything less than 2.5 stars was a "negative" vote. I've assumed the stars were cumulative, and the entry with the most stars won.

As to "sandbagging", I've given a half star vote when the entry did not follow the rules. For example, the "chair" challenge rules stipulated no closeups of chairs -- only chairs placed within a scene would qualify. Yet there were a number of chair closeups that were not DQ'd.

Finally. a question. How does not voting on an entry within a challenge in which one votes for other entries affect the score of the "unvoted" entry?

There are no negative votes, some just enjoy calling it that, gods know why.

But many people are confused by the voting scale, as the same lowest vote is supposed to be cast for inappropriate entry (not fitting the Challenge) and also for the low-quality entry that fits.

Some would cast a half-star because they think an image is too common to deserve any quality analysis - which is wrong. Some would downvote other people's entries thinking that it would make their own photography better. That is wrong too. And then there are those who cast a half-star just everywhere, thinking... Gods know if, how, and what they're thinking, but voting they aren't.

The half-star punishment for an entry that does not fit the Challenge theme and/or rules is actually pampering the lazy, inept host who should have thrown such entries out of Challenge before it entered its Voting phase. And we do have such hosts, who simply refuse to undeerstand their purpose and duties. Funnywise, for some uncanny reason, DPR still keeps them hosting...

As to your question, there are several opinions, all in the theoretical (unexplained) area.

Some people mantain the Bayesian system will take into account the position of that entrant's averaging curve and use such values to assign the place even when an entry does not receive any votes. Others think that all math is applied only within the certain Challenge, with no regard to any previous results or placements. If that's the case, then there is absolutely no use of the stats derived from personal results.

This is the reason I keep proposing all-vote-on-all-entries and an additive system. This would also annihilate tendencious voting, and half of host's nightmares would be removed.

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Fil

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,214
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"

Although some photographers take two cameras is unlikely they would wanna change into the same lens for the same shot.  Shooting a setting sun also requires lots of snaps in a short period of time as the the right moment might slip by quickly... if it was you, would you spend these precious seconds changing from the D700 to the D7000, esp in a salty breezy maritime environment?

Nonetheless I noted that you have agreed that they might be two different photographers, which is all I want to point out.

Judging from his entries, I would say thanasaki is a very decent photographer with a great eye for people shots and human passion.  It's just unfortunate the others have already blacklisted them, perhaps they could reconsider if their swift punishments were correct beyond reasonable doubt.

tasad wrote:

From my experience, they were out shooting together.

I can see the different viewing angles on the shot, different EXIF info, etc.

They are probably shooting buddies.

See below for an example:

http://fujimugs.com/challenge/entry.php?entry=9852#entry

http://fujimugs.com/challenge/entry.php?entry=9853#entry

If they are indeed shooting buddies, I wouldn't blame tasad for asking a question. But he could have asked thanasaki directly. Asking a question out loud is no different from casting doubts.

Perhaps tasad should watch the scene from the movie 'Doubt', when Father Flynn was giving a sermon about gossips. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0918927/trivia?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu

Just so you know Tasad isn't always right, he accused a new host, 'carizi' of plagiarising the way I write my rules. (see 'Like A Stone'). But he apologized for it, and all is forgiven.

As for the rest of the people, perhaps they need to reflect upon their behaviour....should it turn out that they were wrong about it.

From my expierence , some photographers own ......

...

... carry and use a few cameras and lenses , so they can shot a scene form a different angles or a different distances .

How can do you see the "different exif " , if the exif informations have been removed ?

The informations which you see under the pictures - are fake, manipulated informations .

These two pictures were taken 2 minutes apart , taken with the camera" auto mode " and the lens "zoom -in " . When a camera is in "auto mode " and a lens is "zoom-in" or "zoom-out", camera changes automatically - aperture, shutter , ISO .

....

I agree , I'm not allways right , but usually...

Yes, they can be a shooting buddies ( with a "kissing couple" specialization ) - so, for this reason I did not post it in the " What shoud be done with cheats ..." thread.

It's nice to see , that some PDreview members - are always on their friends side ...

...

proef Regular Member • Posts: 155
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"

OldArrow wrote:

proef wrote:

I haven't realized that anything less than 2.5 stars was a "negative" vote. I've assumed the stars were cumulative, and the entry with the most stars won.

As to "sandbagging", I've given a half star vote when the entry did not follow the rules. For example, the "chair" challenge rules stipulated no closeups of chairs -- only chairs placed within a scene would qualify. Yet there were a number of chair closeups that were not DQ'd.

Finally. a question. How does not voting on an entry within a challenge in which one votes for other entries affect the score of the "unvoted" entry?

There are no negative votes, some just enjoy calling it that, gods know why.

But many people are confused by the voting scale, as the same lowest vote is supposed to be cast for inappropriate entry (not fitting the Challenge) and also for the low-quality entry that fits.

This is the reason I keep proposing all-vote-on-all-entries and an additive system. This would also annihilate tendencious voting, and half of host's nightmares would be removed.
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Fil

How about an additive total for each entry, divided by the number of times it has received votes? Of course, an eligibility percentage would need to be set, say any entry would need to be voted on by at least 90 percent of the total casting votes. (But, I suppose a group could then not vote on a certain picture so as to diminish its chances of eligibility and thereby enhance one of the group member's entry.) That though, would take a pretty large group of cheats to water down eligibility percentages as opposed to absolute vote totals.

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proef Regular Member • Posts: 155
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"

Thanks Tim, and Old Arrow! You guys are very helpful.

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Deleted pending purge Senior Member • Posts: 1,197
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"
2

proef wrote:

OldArrow wrote:

...
This is the reason I keep proposing all-vote-on-all-entries and an additive system. This would also annihilate tendencious voting, and half of host's nightmares would be removed.
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Fil

How about an additive total for each entry, divided by the number of times it has received votes? Of course, an eligibility percentage would need to be set, say any entry would need to be voted on by at least 90 percent of the total casting votes. (But, I suppose a group could then not vote on a certain picture so as to diminish its chances of eligibility and thereby enhance one of the group member's entry.) That though, would take a pretty large group of cheats to water down eligibility percentages as opposed to absolute vote totals.

That's what I meant. All values cast by all voters, divided by the number of voters gives an average vote value, and that's about as precise as can be.

Now, to ensure that each and every entry receives votes from all the voters, one has to program the voting system thus that the voter's values register only when all the entries have been voted upon. This could occur during all of the Voting period, so as not to tire the voter unnecessarily; the entries voted upon will be remembered (the same way they're remembered now).

When all the votes by a Voter were cast, this voting is tagged to be used in the final calculation.

Another routine tests whether the voter has an entry in this particular challenge, and deducts the number of entered pictures from the total number of votess that this voter has to cast in order to qualify... Or...

One simply allows any voter to evaluate their entries too. The effects of such an influence would be negligible enough to be disregarded. Against so many votes, no malicious voting will be able to change a thing. Thus, if a challenge has, say, 100 entries, including the entry from the voter, every entry will get 100 votes. This means 10000 votes, which is more than enough to squash all "overly optimistic self-evaluations".

The question of multiple accounts is something that has to be reconsidered altigether. There should be ways to counteract the actions of groups or "families" operating through the same router(s)... but at least these groups would have to become pretty large to influence the challenges.

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Fil

Harveydad Senior Member • Posts: 1,768
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"
1

I guess I keep repeating myself...........why does 'negative voting" matter to anybody?  Or people not voting?  Or people voting more than once.  Or why should anyone have to defend to anyone else why they voted the way  they did?  How could this be so important in one's life?  These challenges are supposed to be entertaining, but they have become "true challenges".  If entrants and voters could be placed face-to-face, there would probably be blows exchanged.  What have we come to?  If your challenge entry does not place highly, learn from those that do and move on.  There are plenty more coming down the pike.  Relax.........

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POGO was right !

Jorginho Forum Pro • Posts: 13,658
May be better that those who enter cannot vote.
3

and I have the same feeling. And not just now, this seems to be going on for ages. Extremely negative voting for beautiful, well composed pictures that were not over processed at all. I think there are quite a few people that indeed vote that way to take down the competition. I think it would be better if those who enter a challenge, cannot vote on any picture at all.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,214
Re: May be better that those who enter cannot vote.

and I have the same feeling. And not just now, this seems to be going on for ages. Extremely negative voting for beautiful, well composed pictures that were not over processed at all. I think there are quite a few people that indeed vote that way to take down the competition. I think it would be better if those who enter a challenge, cannot vote on any picture at all.

one man's meat is another woman's poison.

Harveydad Senior Member • Posts: 1,768
Re: May be better that those who enter cannot vote.
4

I agree that no person should vote in a challenge in which he/she has an entry.  I must also admit that I am guilty in the past of voting low numbers for other participants in challenges in which I had an entry.  But my guilt made me quite doing that a long time ago.  But I DO understand why it is done.  It should be made into an official rule for all challenges:  if you enter a photo in a challenge, you cannot vote in that challenge.  The more I think about it, the more I like it and think it is fair to everybody

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POGO was right !

Skylane Contributing Member • Posts: 715
Re: May be better that those who enter cannot vote.
1

Yet, there are hosts who advocate entrants voting in a challenge and at lest one who tries to force such activity!

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Charlie

Deleted pending purge Senior Member • Posts: 1,197
Re: May be better that those who enter cannot vote.
1

I wonder why is it so hard to overcome the urge to win? Since we know that downplaying others won't make our pictures any better - how is it influencing the entry quality at all?

OK, maybe this is just one way to self-training which is good for the soul, but impossible it isn't. As Harveydad says, the guilt feeling makes it easier. Btw, thanks, Harveydad, for your honesty!

So just go on voting fairly. It is better to be honest and last, than first and aware it was undeserved, I think...

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Fil

santamonica812 Contributing Member • Posts: 860
Re: May be better that those who enter cannot vote.
4

Skylane wrote:

Yet, there are hosts who advocate entrants voting in a challenge and at lest one who tries to force such activity!

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Charlie

It might surprise you to know that, ideally, I agree with you and HD.  In a perfect world, it would be best if people did not vote in challenges where they had entered.  But you are ignoring (or discounting) the value in eliminating cheating (via sandbagging other people's entries, creating multiple IDs, etc), or in at least minimizing the impact of cheaters' votes.

I cheerfully note that I am the (only??) challenge host that requires each entrant to vote for all other entries?  Why?  Because, before I started hosting, I was seeing some challenges where all the photos were getting less than 10 votes!  With such few votes, it makes cheating much easier, and I was seeing (and reading many many many posts about) examples of suspicious challenge results.  If you have created 2 fake accounts on DP, and you can therefore provide 2/7 or 2/9 of all votes, that has a huge weight on the final results.  But if there are 25-30 total votes for each image, then the same cheating will have little impact.

When I looked at my most recent challenges, I have seen that there are only around 5 votes per image that come from non-entrants!!!  Obviously, that would be terrible for all the entrants, if almost no one outside the challenge bothered to vote and if entrants were prevented from voting.  If you have suggestions for how to get 20-30 votes per image from non-entrants, please pass them on to me, and I'll give them serious consideration.

My opinion so far is that the people who tend to enter challenges (at least, my own challenges) are the same people who are the more consistent voters here at DP.  I suspect that if you removed the top 30 or so voters, many or most of the DP challenges would have very few votes cast.  Which speaks to the incredible devotion of those 'frequent voters,' or the relatively poor participation from the rest of us.  Or a bit of both. 

As I said, I am more than open to any advice or suggestion that will increase voter participation in my challenges (and in other hosts' challenges, for that matter).

Skylane Contributing Member • Posts: 715
Re: May be better that those who enter cannot vote.

santamonica812 wrote:

Skylane wrote:

Yet, there are hosts who advocate entrants voting in a challenge and at lest one who tries to force such activity!

It might surprise you to know that, ideally, I agree with you and HD.  In a perfect world, it would be best if people did not vote in challenges where they had entered.  But you are ignoring (or discounting) the value in eliminating cheating (via sandbagging other people's entries, creating multiple IDs, etc), or in at least minimizing the impact of cheaters' votes.

I am not ignoring or condoning anything. I was replying to HD to point out that some hosts do not agree with him. I was simply stating fact. Since I can not speak for you I did not try to with further explanation.

When I looked at my most recent challenges, I have seen that there are only around 5 votes per image that come from non-entrants!!!  Obviously, that would be terrible for all the entrants, if almost no one outside the challenge bothered to vote and if entrants were prevented from voting.  If you have suggestions for how to get 20-30 votes per image from non-entrants, please pass them on to me, and I'll give them serious consideration.

I am not qualified, so I do not vote in your challenges.

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Charlie

thanasaki
OP thanasaki Forum Member • Posts: 86
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"
1

Dear tasad, I just looked into this thread after quite a while and I discovered that me "thanasaki" and my friend and shooting buddy "britties" have been "accused" and also already "convicted" by including us on some (undoubtfully honest and respectfull) members' blacklists, without ANY notice. I admit that you made a very good work on showing a great number of very similar photos of us two and -obviously with honesty- claiming that we were cheaters. In fact they are photos of the many times (almost once a week over the last 3-4 years) where we go shooting together. Conanfuji -whom I respect very much, but know only from his excellent challenge hostings - has guessed 100% the right figure. We, thanasaki and britties are simply SHOOTING BUDDIES and fully respect the rules and ethics of DPreview's "Challenges". If you 'd look more closely to the exif information of the photos of both photographers, you will discover different serial numbers on our cameras (we have both a D90 and D700, though I posess a D300, D7000 and a D5000 aswell). In some very rare occasions we lend also eachothers camera for a quick shot with the right lens on, and sometimes it also can happen that the exifs of the our pictures are partly corrupted due to postproccessing and uploading (I personally discovered "future dated" on quite a few of my submissions due to data transmission errors while uploading. So, I'd  like like to ask you and of course all the other members, active on DPreview's "challenges" to read this notice and eventually figure out their opinion.

BTW, if any questions and doubts raise again, a personal message to me first, would be -I think- the right thing to do.

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l_objectif
l_objectif Forum Pro • Posts: 20,980
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"

thanasaki wrote:

BTW, if any questions and doubts raise again, a personal message to me first, would be -I think- the right thing to do.

This is not a "personal" matter but a community concerns!.... We should all be aware of what is going on and hosts must be informed!... DPR, too!

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tasad Contributing Member • Posts: 653
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"
1

thanasaki wrote:

Dear tasad, I just looked into this thread after quite a while and I discovered that me "thanasaki" and my friend and shooting buddy "britties" have been "accused" and also already "convicted" by including us on some (undoubtfully honest and respectfull) members' blacklists, without ANY notice. I admit that you made a very good work on showing a great number of very similar photos of us two and -obviously with honesty- claiming that we were cheaters. In fact they are photos of the many times (almost once a week over the last 3-4 years) where we go shooting together. Conanfuji -whom I respect very much, but know only from his excellent challenge hostings - has guessed 100% the right figure. We, thanasaki and britties are simply SHOOTING BUDDIES and fully respect the rules and ethics of DPreview's "Challenges". If you 'd look more closely to the exif information of the photos of both photographers, you will discover different serial numbers on our cameras (we have both a D90 and D700, though I posess a D300, D7000 and a D5000 aswell). In some very rare occasions we lend also eachothers camera for a quick shot with the right lens on, and sometimes it also can happen that the exifs of the our pictures are partly corrupted due to postproccessing and uploading (I personally discovered "future dated" on quite a few of my submissions due to data transmission errors while uploading. So, I'd  like like to ask you and of course all the other members, active on DPreview's "challenges" to read this notice and eventually figure out their opinion.

BTW, if any questions and doubts raise again, a personal message to me first, would be -I think- the right thing to do.

Dear thanasaki ,

did I call you a cheater or did I ask you a question ?  The thread theme is : " Negative voting destroys challenges "  - not  : " What shoud be done with cheats ? " . My  intention was to ask a question   about an ethical dissonanse between writing about "honest voting " and doing "honest voting . How can you vote honestly and anonymously , if you enter a challenge together with your "shooting buddy "  ?

If you feel ethically innocent  and if you fully respect ethics of DPR challenges - can you post here  screenshots of yours and britties voting history ( from finished challenges of my choice ) ?

MrScorpio
MrScorpio Senior Member • Posts: 1,413
Sorry for interrupting, but...
2

tasad wrote:

thanasaki wrote:

Dear tasad, I just looked into this thread after quite a while and I discovered that me "thanasaki" and my friend and shooting buddy "britties" have been "accused" and also already "convicted" by including us on some (undoubtfully honest and respectfull) members' blacklists, without ANY notice. I admit that you made a very good work on showing a great number of very similar photos of us two and -obviously with honesty- claiming that we were cheaters. In fact they are photos of the many times (almost once a week over the last 3-4 years) where we go shooting together. Conanfuji -whom I respect very much, but know only from his excellent challenge hostings - has guessed 100% the right figure. We, thanasaki and britties are simply SHOOTING BUDDIES and fully respect the rules and ethics of DPreview's "Challenges". If you 'd look more closely to the exif information of the photos of both photographers, you will discover different serial numbers on our cameras (we have both a D90 and D700, though I posess a D300, D7000 and a D5000 aswell). In some very rare occasions we lend also eachothers camera for a quick shot with the right lens on, and sometimes it also can happen that the exifs of the our pictures are partly corrupted due to postproccessing and uploading (I personally discovered "future dated" on quite a few of my submissions due to data transmission errors while uploading. So, I'd  like like to ask you and of course all the other members, active on DPreview's "challenges" to read this notice and eventually figure out their opinion.

BTW, if any questions and doubts raise again, a personal message to me first, would be -I think- the right thing to do.

Dear thanasaki ,

did I call you a cheater or did I ask you a question ?  The thread theme is : " Negative voting destroys challenges "  - not  : " What shoud be done with cheats ? " . My  intention was to ask a question   about an ethical dissonanse between writing about "honest voting " and doing "honest voting . How can you vote honestly and anonymously , if you enter a challenge together with your "shooting buddy "  ?

If you feel ethically innocent  and if you fully respect ethics of DPR challenges - can you post here  screenshots of yours and britties voting history ( from finished challenges of my choice ) ?

Hi all

Interesting thread!

As a host I always have to assume everyone is honest and has an honest intention. However there are cheaters here, which I think is totally unacceptable, since it completely destroys the fun for everyone else. It surprises me that DPreview accepts these. They should be permanently banned.

Personally I enjoy the Capture Date Rule challenges very much, since I find it really being a lot of fun taking my equipment trying to capture a specific photo for that particular challenge. A process that starts in my head, thinking about what pic I want to achieve and then going out trying to do just that.

Having said all this, I think it is too much to demand of someone to present screen shots to prove their innocence. of course 2 friends will support each other somewhat in a challenge, but as long as it is not systematic cheating downgrading other good shots it is "part of life". Like Bill Gates said "Life is not always fair. Just deal with it."

The super easy and very effective solution is POSITIVE VOTING! Why DPreview does not introduce this system is a completely alien to me. It should be a no-brainer.

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Steve Throndson Senior Member • Posts: 2,702
Re: Negative Voting DESTROYS "Challenges"
1

tasad wrote:

"How can you vote honestly and anonymously , if you enter a challenge together with your shooting buddy "  ?

Tasad,

It's not hard to do - you just need to be an honest person.  The kind that can go into a store and not steal something.  Or one who can declare all his income when it's tax time.  Or one who can say they're sorry when they've inadvertently done something that might have hurt someone.

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