DA 12-28mm on the way?

Started Jan 29, 2013 | Discussions
Paul_R_H Contributing Member • Posts: 953
DA 12-28mm on the way?

Tokina has just shown a new 12-28mm f/4 zoom for DX. Does this say anything about the 'DA wide zoom' in the Feb 2011 Pentax lens roadmap?

http://www.pentaximaging.com/files/pdf/lens_roadmap.pdf

Paul

DLBlack Forum Pro • Posts: 13,387
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Paul_R_H wrote:

Tokina has just shown a new 12-28mm f/4 zoom for DX. Does this say anything about the 'DA wide zoom' in the Feb 2011 Pentax lens roadmap?

http://www.pentaximaging.com/files/pdf/lens_roadmap.pdf

Paul

This could be right.  Tokina and Pentax has partnered on lenses in the past.  If so then finally there is a new lens that I will want to buy from Pentax.

Dave

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RBellavance Senior Member • Posts: 1,232
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Paul_R_H wrote:

Tokina has just shown a new 12-28mm f/4 zoom for DX. Does this say anything about the 'DA wide zoom' in the Feb 2011 Pentax lens roadmap?

I had the same thought when I read about the Tokina announcement.

Given that the DA12-24/4 was basically a rebadged Tokina 12-24, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case.

leopold Forum Pro • Posts: 14,083
WR please !!!

And i think i would buy one, would even consider selling my FA20 to get it

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Mr_Cynical Regular Member • Posts: 294
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

It probably is, but unless the Pentax one is WR I honestly can't see why they'd go to the expense of a redesign just for that small bit of extra reach on the long end. The 12-24 is one of Pentax's better zooms.

Marc Sabatella Veteran Member • Posts: 6,679
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Given that the DA12-24/4 was basically a rebadged Tokina 12-24, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case.

That's not really accurate.  I mean, yes, they share the same optical design, but the above makes it sound like Tokina did all the design work then Pentax just licensed it, when it it is at least as likely that it was an actual joint design effort.

Mike Hiran
Mike Hiran Senior Member • Posts: 1,205
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Mr_Cynical wrote:

It probably is, but unless the Pentax one is WR I honestly can't see why they'd go to the expense of a redesign just for that small bit of extra reach on the long end. The 12-24 is one of Pentax's better zooms.

totally agree with this.  if the new wide lens isn't wider or faster or WR, I don't see a reason to part with what works great already....

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RBellavance Senior Member • Posts: 1,232
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Marc Sabatella wrote:

Given that the DA12-24/4 was basically a rebadged Tokina 12-24, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case.

That's not really accurate. I mean, yes, they share the same optical design, but the above makes it sound like Tokina did all the design work then Pentax just licensed it, when it it is at least as likely that it was an actual joint design effort.

You're right, I oversimplified things.

Joseph Tainter Forum Pro • Posts: 10,330
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Marc Sabatella wrote:

Given that the DA12-24/4 was basically a rebadged Tokina 12-24, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case.

That's not really accurate. I mean, yes, they share the same optical design, but the above makes it sound like Tokina did all the design work then Pentax just licensed it, when it it is at least as likely that it was an actual joint design effort.

Actually, the 12-24 is the only one of the joint Pentax/Tokina lenses that was designed by Tokina. The others were designed by Pentax. Years ago, someone here posted links to patents.

Tokina's 11-16 was based on the 12-24.

I don't know who designed this new Tokina lens.

Joe

Marc Sabatella Veteran Member • Posts: 6,679
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Joseph Tainter wrote:

Actually, the 12-24 is the only one of the joint Pentax/Tokina lenses that was designed by Tokina. The others were designed by Pentax. Years ago, someone here posted links to patents.

Yes, I remember that.  But still, that doesn't really anyone single-handedly designed any given lens.  Still could well have been joint designs all around, with the "lead" team for each lens filing the patent for each.  Not that it's really important to sort this out, but given the extent of the assumption that Pentax is simply in the rebadging business, I think it important (?) to remind people it isn't that simple with these lenses.  There really was some joint effort according to all published reports, but the exact nature of it is unclear.  As opposed to the "Pentax" versions of the 18-250 and 18-270, which really are plain and simple licenses of Tamron designs.

paulkienitz
paulkienitz Veteran Member • Posts: 5,294
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Marc Sabatella wrote:

Given that the DA12-24/4 was basically a rebadged Tokina 12-24, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case.

That's not really accurate. I mean, yes, they share the same optical design, but the above makes it sound like Tokina did all the design work then Pentax just licensed it

They only licensed the optical design -- the mechanical parts are independent.

when it it is at least as likely that it was an actual joint design effort.

I doubt there was much actual collaboration in the design -- from all I've heard, each of the joint lenses was designed by one company and copied by the other.

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paulkienitz
paulkienitz Veteran Member • Posts: 5,294
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

I'm just hoping that the appearance of a new lens causes a drop in the price of 12-24s.

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Conjure
Conjure Regular Member • Posts: 499
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

Tokina/Kenko is related to Hoya:

http://www.hoyafilter.com/   says "Copyright © Kenko Tokina Co., Ltd. All rights reserved"

But Pentax is not any more a part of Hoya.

Conjure
Conjure Regular Member • Posts: 499
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

BTW: The relationship between Tokina and Penax was not an OEM-relationship. Both companies developed the for lenses together from scratch.

2006, Tokina-Präsident Toru Yamanaka:

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Tokina-Vier-neue-%E2%80%9EDigitalobjektive%E2%80%9C-und-die-Beziehung-zu-Pentax-aktualisiert

tigrebleu Senior Member • Posts: 2,020
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way? Maybe...

I wouldn't be to optimistic on that, though. It depends on what you mean by "on the way"... 2013? Hardly, I think. 2014-15? Sounds more realistic.

1. Pentax's collaboration with Tokina ended some time ago. Since they last released lenses they had developed in collaboration (AFAIK, the 50-135mm F/2.8, 16-50mm F/2.8, 12-24mm F/4, 10-17mm F/3.5-4.5 Fisheye, 100mm F/2.8 Macro and, if I'm not mistaken 35mm F/2.8 Macro lenses), Tokina has produced other lenses that were never added to Pentax's lens line-up, like the 16-28mm F/2.8 FX, the 17-35mm F/4 FX, the 16.5-135mm F/3.5-5.6, the 11-16mm F/2.8, 11-16mm F/2.8 II, 10-17mm F/3.5-4.5 "NH" and 12-24mm F/4 II, just to name these. Even when not taking in account upgrades and full-frame lenses, Tokina has released the 11-16mm and the 16.5-135mm lenses. Pentax released an unrelated 18-135mm WR lens, but no ultra-wide.

2. Most manufacturer's lens roadmaps aren't very accurate: the lens range will sure be right (as it's always been for Pentax, as far as I can remember), but the timeline probably won't be as reliable as people would like. But looking at the roadmap, the focal length looks like a 12-28mm-ish lens indeed. Could be a 14-28mm, a 15-30mm, a 12-35mm or a 10-24mm, etc. That "approximate" range is, indeed, approximate.

Personally, I would've love to have a DA* (or even just a DA WR) ultra-wide angle lens. I waited long enough and eventually bought a lens that offered just that (ultra-wide field of view and weather resistance... in another brand, unfortunately).

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tigrebleu Senior Member • Posts: 2,020
Correction: Tokina, Hoya: no link besides distribution.

Tokina isn't owned by Hoya, at least not as a subsidiary would be. Hoya has a few shares in Tokina, but they don't hold the majority (or even much) of these, and as such, are only a marginal shareholder of the company.

Tokina is, however, distributing Hoya photo products (essentially, filters) in the world, as stated in the link below (check the last phrase under "Hoya"):

http://www.thkphoto.com/company/parent/

For instance, Hoya, Tokina, Kenko and Slik are distributed by THK (Tokina-Hoya-Kenko) in the U.S., just like Daymen is distributing Hoya filters, Silk tripods and Tokina lenses in Canada.

But Daymen is also distributing products like Sekonic and Lensbaby. That doesn't mean Sekonic is owned by Hoya, just as it doesn't mean Tokina is owned by Hoya either. They only share the same distributor, hence the common mistake about the ownership of Tokina.

(Some companies can find interest in joining forces to distribute their products together, especially smaller companies, like Tokina Lenses Inc. and Hoya Filters Inc., as it helps reducing the distribution costs.)

Of course, none of this makes Pentax more likely to have any reason to release a lens similar to Tokina's coming 12-28mm F/4. Unless the Pentax-Tokina collaboration has been renewed. Or unless it wasn't stopped at all in the first place, but was just put on hold for some time instead.

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tigrebleu Senior Member • Posts: 2,020
True.

Marc Sabatella wrote:

Yes, I remember that. But still, that doesn't really anyone single-handedly designed any given lens. Still could well have been joint designs all around, with the "lead" team for each lens filing the patent for each. Not that it's really important to sort this out, but given the extent of the assumption that Pentax is simply in the rebadging business, I think it important (?) to remind people it isn't that simple with these lenses. There really was some joint effort according to all published reports, but the exact nature of it is unclear. As opposed to the "Pentax" versions of the 18-250 and 18-270, which really are plain and simple licenses of Tamron designs.

Indeed, joint design is not the same as rebadging. For instance, Hoya is one of the world's most important provider for lenses, producing them to many other manufacturer's specifications, ending up in videocameras, digicams and lenses from many imaging companies. While Nikon and Canon usually build their lenses from the ground up (in the case of Nikon, through one of its subsidiaries, see this link:  http://nikonrumors.com/2013/01/26/the-wholly-owned-subsidiary-hikari-glass-is-where-nikon-glass-is-made.aspx/ ), many other manufacturers don't have the resources to polish their own lenses from the ground up, so they resort to outsourcing, and sometimes joint development (like Panasonic and Olympus working together on 4/3 and M4/3 lenses and technology).

Truth is, collaborations like the one that occurred between Tokina and Pentax and Panasonic and Olympus are far more common than many believe. Years ago, Ford and Mazda designed a fews cars together through such an agreement of collaboration.

The Ford Probe and the Mazda 626 (and MX-6) had the same mechanical designs, with the car body and the options offered by each manufacturer being different from one another. Many technologies had to be shared, so one manufacturer had to fill a patent and give the other one the right to use the patent without it being considered infringement. That didn't mean the company filling the patent had developed the technology alone.

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MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 38,514
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way? Maybe...

One thing to note is that the Tokina 16.5-135 lens was not designed by Tokina as Pentax actually holds the patent on that one, Tokina Licensed Pentax to design it for them by the look of things.

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dpnaiba Regular Member • Posts: 121
Re: DA 12-28mm on the way?

According to the roadmap this would be a Limited ... wouldn't that mean some sort of compact or Pancake-ish design?

A compact (fingers cross for WR too, but I don't think so) pancake style 12-28 would be an instant buy for me

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Jim in Hudson Senior Member • Posts: 2,242
Re: True.

tigrebleu wrote:


Truth is, collaborations like the one that occurred between Tokina and Pentax and Panasonic and Olympus are far more common than many believe. Years ago, Ford and Mazda designed a fews cars together through such an agreement of collaboration.

The Ford Probe and the Mazda 626 (and MX-6) had the same mechanical designs, with the car body and the options offered by each manufacturer being different from one another. Many technologies had to be shared, so one manufacturer had to fill a patent and give the other one the right to use the patent without it being considered infringement. That didn't mean the company filling the patent had developed the technology alone.

That's a different situation than Pentax and Tokina.  At its high water mark, Ford owned 33% of Mazda so naturally they were sharing technologies and manufacturing assets.

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