DP3M photos

Started Jan 29, 2013 | Discussions
HBowman
HBowman Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: DP3M photos
3

Please SIGMA, give us a device able to render skin tones as every post 2009 camera can already do very well.



Skin tones of 2008 Bayer camera.

Actually, I can't photograph my wife because of her skin. She have a ginger skin and, whatever PP skills you have, it is impossible to have a realistic skin tone, especially when you have some freckles.

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Laurence Matson
Laurence Matson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,975
Re: On Banding and Noise

Raist3d wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

Just to stir the pot one more time before it heads for the back burner:

Well that doesn't sound like you are about to act in good faith, does it?

No, it sounds like you have no sense for irony.

I saw some banding in the early SD1 stuff and the blotchiness issues back in early days of that device. There were some improvements made to SPP, and for the most part, they were a think (sic) of the past.

The purple and green splotches are a thing of the present. The banding, I agree except at high iso Ill give sigma the benefit of the doubt these are dp3m pre production samples

Banding is not visible in the shot cited (lady with green bag) on the Sigma shot. Mike had to amplify the signal to show it.

However, I saw this less as an idée fix and more as an idea looking for a fix.

I am sorry but I can't agree to that. Seems to me the issue is being ignored or its not an Issue to you. However being the case foveon has been pro claimed as a sensor of top image quality its only natural to hold It to that standard, and point out it is not all like that when it isn't at least in some rather somewhat common situations.

Of course you can't Ricardo. And now you come with your specious reasoning: "Seems to me . . . "

Right now, I am gaining the impression that some people - not evil people or trolls: just people - look for ways to make their point by manipulating the image a bit.

You tell me what is going on.

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/image/148556058

Am I the only one seeing this with the example of the lady with the green bag?

Well I can only speak for myself on that. You should ask Signa because I am looking at their directly posted example. I believe at this point the issue is rather consistent and has a bit of a pattern. Do you think Sigma is trying to purposely show their camera on a bad light?

And are you telling me you see banding in the image of the lady with the green bag as posted on the Japan site? If that is the case, then I am quite sure the issue is with your equipment. It seems to me that your monitor is not calibrated in the least.

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Laurence
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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
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Laurence
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Stankus Regular Member • Posts: 218
Re: DP3M photos

HBowman wrote:

Please SIGMA, give us a device able to render skin tones as every post 2009 camera can already do very well.



Skin tones of 2008 Bayer camera.

Actually, I can't photograph my wife because of her skin. She have a ginger skin and, whatever PP skills you have, it is impossible to have a realistic skin tone, especially when you have some freckles.



Here is my example. What do you think about skin colour ?

HBowman
HBowman Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: DP3M photos
3

Hello Stankus,

On your photo, skin colour is great. This is because it is done with a SIGMA DP2 S with the Fx17-78-F13D sensor in it.

My concern is with the Merrill sensor. He does not output the same skin tone at all. It is impossible to have this result out of the camera. It can be sorted, sometimes, after extensive PP.

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mike earussi Veteran Member • Posts: 8,136
Re: On Banding and Noise
1

Laurence Matson wrote:

.

I saw some banding in the early SD1 stuff and the blotchiness issues back in early days of that device. There were some improvements made to SPP, and for the most part, they were a think (sic) of the past.

The purple and green splotches are a thing of the present. The banding, I agree except at high iso Ill give sigma the benefit of the doubt these are dp3m pre production samples

Banding is not visible in the shot cited (lady with green bag) on the Sigma shot. Mike had to amplify the signal to show it.

Actually, it is visible in the shot without any amplification, not only the black skirt but in the green jacket to the left, it's just faint.

Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 38,677
Re: On Banding and Noise
1

Laurence Matson wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

Just to stir the pot one more time before it heads for the back burner:

Well that doesn't sound like you are about to act in good faith, does it?

No, it sounds like you have no sense for irony.

well, you never know

I saw some banding in the early SD1 stuff and the blotchiness issues back in early days of that device. There were some improvements made to SPP, and for the most part, they were a think (sic) of the past.

The purple and green splotches are a thing of the present. The banding, I agree except at high iso Ill give sigma the benefit of the doubt these are dp3m pre production samples

Banding is not visible in the shot cited (lady with green bag) on the Sigma shot. Mike had to amplify the signal to show it.

no amplification needed I can certainly see it. You may want to consider the time I made my post which is earlier than Mike's.

However, I saw this less as an idée fix and more as an idea looking for a fix.

I am sorry but I can't agree to that. Seems to me the issue is being ignored or its not an Issue to you. However being the case foveon has been pro claimed as a sensor of top image quality its only natural to hold It to that standard, and point out it is not all like that when it isn't at least in some rather somewhat common situations.

Of course you can't Ricardo. And now you come with your specious reasoning: "Seems to me . . . "

Its not specious. I can readily see the issue you can also check the second dog shot in the darker areas.

Right now, I am gaining the impression that some people - not evil people or trolls: just people - look for ways to make their point by manipulating the image a bit.

You tell me what is going on.

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/image/148556058

Am I the only one seeing this with the example of the lady with the green bag?

Well I can only speak for myself on that. You should ask Signa because I am looking at their directly posted example. I believe at this point the issue is rather consistent and has a bit of a pattern. Do you think Sigma is trying to purposely show their camera on a bad light?

And are you telling me you see banding in the image of the lady with the green bag as posted on the Japan site?

That is indeed exactly what I said and yes,  I can sure see it. I pointed it out earlier along with other issues.

If that is the case, then I am quite sure the issue is with your equipment.

I don't think so. My equipment is working fine.

It seems to me that your monitor is not calibrated in the least.

Actually my monitor is. It's also one of the best kinds in the market right now- a retina display.

Oh by the way, The fact the image has that banding at low iso at all that shows to you with minimal amplification is not good news either but yeah, you don't have to amplify anything to see it.

Do keep in mind I also pointed out posterization (which the second dog shot also has) and magenta/green splotches on the jacket of the right most lady which again seems another issue of the current generation Foveon image quality wise.

Finally I gave examples of some shots sigma posted that have the kind of images quality I was expecting to see across all the shots or examples of shots that do not suffer from these issues.

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Laurence
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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
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Laurence
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Laurence Matson
Laurence Matson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,975
Re: On Banding and Noise
1

mike earussi wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

.

I saw some banding in the early SD1 stuff and the blotchiness issues back in early days of that device. There were some improvements made to SPP, and for the most part, they were a think (sic) of the past.

The purple and green splotches are a thing of the present. The banding, I agree except at high iso Ill give sigma the benefit of the doubt these are dp3m pre production samples

Banding is not visible in the shot cited (lady with green bag) on the Sigma shot. Mike had to amplify the signal to show it.


Actually, it is visible in the shot without any amplification, not only the black skirt but in the green jacket to the left, it's just faint.

With all due respect, I have checked that on my monitor, had others with far sharper eyes than mine do the same, even used a lupe: I cannot find it there.

I also called other people who have excellent, calibrated monitors, where I know this to be true and asked them to find it: They found nothing.

For the past 14 months, I have not engaged much in these discussions, because I did not have a calibrated monitor and thus did not trust what I was seeing. Needless to say, things like printing and color correction were hëll. This situation has changed. I trust what I am seeing and that which others see where I know the monitor.

I also appreciate that amplification can be useful to help us see something, and that that work remains for Sigma and Foveon. But in a print and under normal viewing conditions, there is nothing there whether as a result of the processing in SPP, careful work by the person doing it, an improvement in the technology, or all of the above.

The aim must be to show the best results of what any technology and tool can do and not to pry up every nail in the metal roof in the search for potential leaks.

Ricardo and the Fuddists (Dave Barry says that is a great name for a band) have enough in their feed bowl as it is.

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Laurence
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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,857
Re: On Banding and Noise

Actually my monitor is. It's also one of the best kinds in the market right now- a retina display.

iPhone? iPad? Macbook Pro?

I'm sure retina is ok, but for real photo work i would name Eizo, Quato...

Nevertheless...i also see faint banding in the original picture of the two ladies, and my monitor is calibrated. (Eizo)
The picture itself is anyway terrible, wrong white balance, ugly skin tones, photographed trough a window..

Maceo

HBowman
HBowman Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: On Banding and Noise

maceoQ wrote:

Actually my monitor is. It's also one of the best kinds in the market right now- a retina display.

iPhone? iPad? Macbook Pro?

I'm sure retina is ok, but for real photo work i would name Eizo, Quato...

Nevertheless...i also see faint banding in the original picture of the two ladies, and my monitor is calibrated. (Eizo)
The picture itself is anyway terrible, wrong white balance, ugly skin tones, photographed trough a window..

Maceo

I'm on calibrated monitor too, Eizo and Nec. There is banding (on many other photos too).

BUT this is done with prototype camera so I do hope it will be FAR better on the commercial unit.

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Hornbrille
Hornbrille Regular Member • Posts: 360
Skin tones

Hulyss,

can you elaborate on those skin tone problems. I seldom shoot people but i mentioned with my DP2M some difficulties mostly with autoportrait under bad light. Do you mean the desaturated parts between light and shadow appearing green? Can you provide examples?

Uwe 8-)

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 38,677
Re: On Banding and Noise

maceoQ wrote:

Actually my monitor is. It's also one of the best kinds in the market right now- a retina display.

iPhone? iPad? Macbook Pro?

I'm sure retina is ok, but for real photo work i would name Eizo, Quato...

spare me the high end brands, the retina monitor has more than good enough color gamut for "real photo work" ;-). And I calibrated it.

Nevertheless...i also see faint banding in the original picture of the two ladies, and my monitor is calibrated. (Eizo)

well look at that, I can sleep better now

The picture itself is anyway terrible, wrong white balance, ugly skin tones, photographed trough a window..

the skin colors are  indeed a bit weird. it actually shows. Other pattern I have been seeing- it's like some noise reduction being done T some layers affect the final color. Is the kind of color I would see from the previos foveo. On skin to es but at higher isos- like they tend to shift to a bit of monochromatic toned color.

Maceo

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 38,677
Re: On Banding and Noise

HBowman wrote:

maceoQ wrote:

Actually my monitor is. It's also one of the best kinds in the market right now- a retina display.

iPhone? iPad? Macbook Pro?

I'm sure retina is ok, but for real photo work i would name Eizo, Quato...

Nevertheless...i also see faint banding in the original picture of the two ladies, and my monitor is calibrated. (Eizo)
The picture itself is anyway terrible, wrong white balance, ugly skin tones, photographed trough a window..

Maceo

I'm on calibrated monitor too, Eizo and Nec. There is banding (on many other photos too).

BUT this is done with prototype camera so I do hope it will be FAR better on the commercial unit.

I agree with you on that. I also expect the banding to most likely be solved at low iso given what they did with the other cameras.  The color splotches though seems to still happen all across all models using the new x3 sensor, as well as some posterizarion at times

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 38,677
An yes personal attacks for the win
2

Sorry Lawrence but looks like more people can readily see the issue. Of course instead of plolitely agree to disagree you throw me in as a "fuddist" since you are yourself such a paragon of objective assessments when it comes to Sigma equipment (Which you seem to 'buy' all the time).

When you miss the obvious in a snow shot compared with the previos Sigma foveon side to side at low iso in full spectrum light we sure know we can count on you for a good objective assessment.

Nevermind I did say i loved my dp2 even when not ultimately quite a match for what I wanted to do (and have recommended it to several people actually), and never mind I pointed several examples that sigma posted that show the image quality i was expecting. Never mind either I have said now three times that I do think the banding at low iso we are seeing here will be most likely fixed given what Signa did to dp2m's output.

But no worries. Sleep well. We all know it's me... Punkt?

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

One River Regular Member • Posts: 341
Re: DP3M photos

HBowman wrote:

mmm... I wanted to by this DP3m but I'm not sure, actually.

The problem is, in my world, that Old DP and SD add the best skin rendition I ever seen. SD15 was awesome for skin tones, DP2s and X was awesome for that too. No banding and easy way to get around "splotches".

I agree that the old sensor was in many ways superior for people shooting, although the new sensor seems like a landscaper's dream.

Question about the DP2x/s. Does it focus substantially faster than the original DP2 (with updated firmware)?

Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 38,677
Re: DP3M photos

One River wrote:

HBowman wrote:

mmm... I wanted to by this DP3m but I'm not sure, actually.

The problem is, in my world, that Old DP and SD add the best skin rendition I ever seen. SD15 was awesome for skin tones, DP2s and X was awesome for that too. No banding and easy way to get around "splotches".

I agree that the old sensor was in many ways superior for people shooting, although the new sensor seems like a landscaper's dream.

Question about the DP2x/s. Does it focus substantially faster than the original DP2 (with updated firmware)?

I am inclined to agree with both assessments though I have seen a few shots the skin tones are fine in the new X3- perhaps its more of an issue of the range of light conditions you can get those skin tones, vs the older X3.   I would add the new sensor to me is better at b/w, low iso. I still want to see the new SPP monochrome mode and how well it does in a good iso range.

As a side point the lens of the dp2m vs previous dp2's is a clear improvement.

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--> LSN Senior Member • Posts: 1,309
Haters gonna hate. (n/t)
1
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Charles2
Charles2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,755
This discussion has become evidence for Roger's Law of New Product Intros
1
HBowman
HBowman Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: Haters gonna hate. (n/t)
2

Yes, I do not like those forum fights. But I'm a fervent supporter of Sir Laurence Matson. Even if sometime we can disagree on some points, he does not deserve AT ALL any kind of hate. Nobody deserve it.

It is because of him I discovered and dreamed many nights about the SD15 (even with Carl's Blog). I do not like this sort of harassment/stalking some ppl do toward him over here ...

One River wrote:

HBowman wrote:

mmm... I wanted to by this DP3m but I'm not sure, actually.

The problem is, in my world, that Old DP and SD add the best skin rendition I ever seen. SD15 was awesome for skin tones, DP2s and X was awesome for that too. No banding and easy way to get around "splotches".

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I agree that the old sensor was in many ways superior for people shooting, although the new sensor seems like a landscaper's dream.

Question about the DP2x/s. Does it focus substantially faster than the original DP2 (with updated firmware)?

Yes, the Dp2x does has a much faster AF than the original DP

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BarrytheB Veteran Member • Posts: 3,535
Re: This discussion has become evidence for Roger's Law of New Product Intros

Best post in this thread:)

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Barry Byrd
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One River Regular Member • Posts: 341
Re: Haters gonna hate. (n/t)

HBowman wrote

Yes, the Dp2x does has a much faster AF than the original DP

That's great news, maybe the perfect next camera for me!

Somewhere I had read that the latest DP2 firmware brought it up to speed so I wasn't going to bother, but if there is a speed advantage I will go for it.

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