Photo Ninja vs Aperture

Started Jan 26, 2013 | Discussions
Sgt_Strider Senior Member • Posts: 2,288
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture
1

Hen3ry wrote:

in fact you only really need support for one camera -- the one you have. Or the two or three you have. Any other support is just a waste of resources from your PoV is you look at it from a real world perspective.

Cheers, geoff

I don't agree with you. What if there's a camera that I want to buy, but PN doesn't support it? I know odds are pretty good that Adobe will support it. I think PN will need to clarify what kind of cameras they will ultimately support.

exdeejjjaaaa
exdeejjjaaaa Veteran Member • Posts: 8,263
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture

Sgt_Strider wrote:

Hen3ry wrote:

in fact you only really need support for one camera -- the one you have. Or the two or three you have. Any other support is just a waste of resources from your PoV is you look at it from a real world perspective.

Cheers, geoff

I don't agree with you. What if there's a camera that I want to buy, but PN doesn't support it? I know odds are pretty good that Adobe will support it. I think PN will need to clarify what kind of cameras they will ultimately support.

normal converters typically have no issues w/ regular bayer CFA cameras as their developers can just always see how it is done in dcraw and its derivatives (libraw)... now w/ foveon and xtrans CFA that might be a different story, even the code is present in dcraw it might be restricted, etc.

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Robgo2 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,846
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture
1

Sgt_Strider wrote:

I'm not sure if comparing the default rendering between ACR and PN will really determine which is the best RAW processor. Even after editing with both software, will one really notice the difference between PN and ACR? I'm also concerned about how much resources PN is spending to get more camera support. Adobe have a lot of resources at its disposal so most cameras will be added to its database. I'm not sure PN will do that. Until I get more specifics from PN with respect to its policy of camera support, I'm not sure I can ever move away from Adobe.

You ask a good question, and the answer is "no."  You cannot equal PN's results with any amount of adjusting in ACR or Capture One, which are the two programs that I have used to run numerous head to head comparisons.  PN outperforms them in a number of ways, including artifact free detail, highlight recovery and shadow detail.  And the shadow detail does not come at the expense of global contrast, as is the case with almost every other raw convertor.

If you have questions regarding camera support, send them to Picture Code.  They are a two person operation, but they are very responsive and helpful.  And by all means, reconsider your devotion to Adobe.  When you originally bought their software, did you take an oath of loyalty?  Software is software.  It is constantly being improved, and I can see no reason to deny oneself the benefit of those improvements for reasons that amount to a misplaced sense of commitment and force of habit.  Use what works best for you.

BTW, for those Lightroom devotees who are considering Photo Ninja, it is quite easy to use both programs in a complementary fashion.  LR can serve for file management, local adjustments and printing, while PN does the raw conversion.  Best of both worlds.  Also, the upcoming PN v1.1 will be available as a Photoshop plugin.  That will be my preference, as I like doing local adjustments at the pixel level.

Rob

Robgo2 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,846
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture
1

Sgt_Strider wrote:

I'm not sure if comparing the default rendering between ACR and PN will really determine which is the best RAW processor. Even after editing with both software, will one really notice the difference between PN and ACR? I'm also concerned about how much resources PN is spending to get more camera support. Adobe have a lot of resources at its disposal so most cameras will be added to its database. I'm not sure PN will do that. Until I get more specifics from PN with respect to its policy of camera support, I'm not sure I can ever move away from Adobe.

I would bet that the little guys will be more eager to please than the big guys.  Just write to Picture Code regarding support of any particular camera, and they will do their best to get it covered.  It may not happen overnight, but it will happen sooner than you think.

Rob

OP Mads Bjerke Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Opinions on the Adobe Forum. / Photo Ninja.
1

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

Found this.

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4753607


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Thanks, I came across that too. The more images I process with PN the more I am convinced about its qualities.

My only issue is what to do about the workflow. 
If I use Aperture as a catalog and edit all RAW files in PN, I end up with duplicate files (TIFF and RAW) and the catalog will nearly double in size.

I am also having the problem with Aperture displaying slightly soft images on screen, unless zoom is 100%. Anybody else seeing the same?

Mads

Shirozina Regular Member • Posts: 422
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture
1

Sgt_Strider wrote:

I'm not sure if comparing the default rendering between ACR and PN will really determine which is the best RAW processor. Even after editing with both software, will one really notice the difference between PN and ACR? I'm also concerned about how much resources PN is spending to get more camera support. Adobe have a lot of resources at its disposal so most cameras will be added to its database. I'm not sure PN will do that. Until I get more specifics from PN with respect to its policy of camera support, I'm not sure I can ever move away from Adobe

As I said ( the main point of my post) there are observable differences between PN and my other converters with regard to demosaicing.  Will it replace LR for day to day processing? - no as LR still has by far the best workflow. Will I use it for instances where I want the very best out of an image for say a big print  - Oh yes.

Robgo2 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,846
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture
1

Shirozina wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

I'm not sure if comparing the default rendering between ACR and PN will really determine which is the best RAW processor. Even after editing with both software, will one really notice the difference between PN and ACR? I'm also concerned about how much resources PN is spending to get more camera support. Adobe have a lot of resources at its disposal so most cameras will be added to its database. I'm not sure PN will do that. Until I get more specifics from PN with respect to its policy of camera support, I'm not sure I can ever move away from Adobe

As I said ( the main point of my post) there are observable differences between PN and my other converters with regard to demosaicing. Will it replace LR for day to day processing? - no as LR still has by far the best workflow. Will I use it for instances where I want the very best out of an image for say a big print - Oh yes.

As I mentioned previously, you can easily blend PN into a LR based workflow with very little additional time required. Here's how I might do it (although I do not use LR):

1. Import images as usual into LR.

2. Sort and rate images as usual.

3. Select images for further editing.

4. Export selected images to PN in one of two ways: a) right click on thumbnail and choose Edit In; or b) drag and drop thumbnail into PN.

5. Edit in PN.

6. Render (process) image in PN as TIFF or JPG with output going to original folder.

7. Import rendered output files into LR for local adjustments, printing, collections etc.

I would estimate that the total additional time required for this particular workflow would be less than 30 sec per image, and this does not take into account the fact that you can fully edit images in PN much faster than in LR/ACR, so the total time spent may actually be less.

Note:  At the present time, Photo Ninja does not have batch processing, but it is definitely on the drawing board.

Rob

Aleo Veuliah
MOD Aleo Veuliah Forum Pro • Posts: 14,655
Re: GH3

ajamils1 wrote:

Wanted to give Photo Ninja a try but apparently it does not support GH3 raw files because when I opened them up in PN, all pictures have Magenta color cast on them.

True, I have sent an email asking some questions to Picture Code, one of them was about the updates for new cameras and I mentioned the GH3, they said that for the GH3 they are already working on the RAW support. They also said that an upgrade to version 1.1 will be available to download soon.


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Aleo Veuliah
MOD Aleo Veuliah Forum Pro • Posts: 14,655
Re: Shirozina.
1

Shirozina wrote:

Thanks for this - I'm very impressed. I use mainly LR for it's efficient workflow but Ninja is looking better for outright quality. It's managing to render more fine detail for a start which makes the demosaicing quality of LR, C1 and DXO look quite crude in comparison. On my 5DII files they look like they have gained an extra 10mp! when you peep at 100%. I've always though the big boys in the RAW processing game have traded off a bit of demosaicing quality for processing speed......

GX1 files and 5DII files look great but it looks like they need to develop support for GH3 files as the colour looks like some out of date C41 neg film.

I have sent an email asking some questions to Picture Code, one of them was about the updates for new cameras and I mentioned the GH3, they said that for the GH3 they are already working on the RAW support. They also said that an upgrade to version 1.1 will be available to download soon.


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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

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Aleo Veuliah
MOD Aleo Veuliah Forum Pro • Posts: 14,655
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture

Sgt_Strider wrote:

Hen3ry wrote:

in fact you only really need support for one camera -- the one you have. Or the two or three you have. Any other support is just a waste of resources from your PoV is you look at it from a real world perspective.

Cheers, geoff

I don't agree with you. What if there's a camera that I want to buy, but PN doesn't support it? I know odds are pretty good that Adobe will support it. I think PN will need to clarify what kind of cameras they will ultimately support.

I have sent an email asking some questions to Picture Code, one of them was about the updates for new cameras and I mentioned the GH3, they said that for the GH3 they are already working on the RAW support. They also said they expect to do updates for other cameras support sooner than the other programs. Let's see if it is true.

They also said that an upgrade to version 1.1 will be available to download soon.


-- hide signature --

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

 Aleo Veuliah's gear list:Aleo Veuliah's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS1 Panasonic FZ1000 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 +5 more
Aleo Veuliah
MOD Aleo Veuliah Forum Pro • Posts: 14,655
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture / True.

Robgo2 wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

I'm not sure if comparing the default rendering between ACR and PN will really determine which is the best RAW processor. Even after editing with both software, will one really notice the difference between PN and ACR? I'm also concerned about how much resources PN is spending to get more camera support. Adobe have a lot of resources at its disposal so most cameras will be added to its database. I'm not sure PN will do that. Until I get more specifics from PN with respect to its policy of camera support, I'm not sure I can ever move away from Adobe.

You ask a good question, and the answer is "no." You cannot equal PN's results with any amount of adjusting in ACR or Capture One, which are the two programs that I have used to run numerous head to head comparisons. PN outperforms them in a number of ways, including artifact free detail, highlight recovery and shadow detail. And the shadow detail does not come at the expense of global contrast, as is the case with almost every other raw convertor.

If you have questions regarding camera support, send them to Picture Code. They are a two person operation, but they are very responsive and helpful. And by all means, reconsider your devotion to Adobe. When you originally bought their software, did you take an oath of loyalty? Software is software. It is constantly being improved, and I can see no reason to deny oneself the benefit of those improvements for reasons that amount to a misplaced sense of commitment and force of habit. Use what works best for you.

BTW, for those Lightroom devotees who are considering Photo Ninja, it is quite easy to use both programs in a complementary fashion. LR can serve for file management, local adjustments and printing, while PN does the raw conversion. Best of both worlds. Also, the upcoming PN v1.1 will be available as a Photoshop plugin. That will be my preference, as I like doing local adjustments at the pixel level.

Rob

True words, and I can confirm, for a two persons operation, they hare very helpful, I saw that on the emails I received from them. Also for a two persons operation I think this Photo Ninja is really a breakthrough and amazing.


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Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
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Robgo2 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,846
Re: Opinions on the Adobe Forum. / Photo Ninja.
1

Mads Bjerke wrote:

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

Found this.

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4753607


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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

Thanks, I came across that too. The more images I process with PN the more I am convinced about its qualities.

My only issue is what to do about the workflow.
If I use Aperture as a catalog and edit all RAW files in PN, I end up with duplicate files (TIFF and RAW) and the catalog will nearly double in size.

I am also having the problem with Aperture displaying slightly soft images on screen, unless zoom is 100%. Anybody else seeing the same?

Mads

Mads,

Is it really necessary to edit all of the photos in your catalogs?  If your work is anything like mine, only a small portion deserve any further attention.  Of those that do, most of those can stay in the raw format, and a smaller number deserve local adjustments and fine tuning in Photoshop.  But if you really want all of the PN edited images back in Aperture, you can render (process) them out of Photo Ninja either as JPGs (small files) or TIFFs (larger files) and then re-import them into Aperture.

Also, remember that the catalogs themselves take up almost no space.  It is the underlying image files that do, but with the cost of storage being so low, I don't see this as a major issue.

Rob

Shirozina Regular Member • Posts: 422
Re: Shirozina.

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

Shirozina wrote:

Thanks for this - I'm very impressed. I use mainly LR for it's efficient workflow but Ninja is looking better for outright quality. It's managing to render more fine detail for a start which makes the demosaicing quality of LR, C1 and DXO look quite crude in comparison. On my 5DII files they look like they have gained an extra 10mp! when you peep at 100%. I've always though the big boys in the RAW processing game have traded off a bit of demosaicing quality for processing speed......

GX1 files and 5DII files look great but it looks like they need to develop support for GH3 files as the colour looks like some out of date C41 neg film.

I have sent an email asking some questions to Picture Code, one of them was about the updates for new cameras and I mentioned the GH3, they said that for the GH3 they are already working on the RAW support. They also said that an upgrade to version 1.1 will be available to download soon.


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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

That's great news and thanks for letting me know:-)

Aleo Veuliah
MOD Aleo Veuliah Forum Pro • Posts: 14,655
Re: Shirozina.

Shirozina wrote:

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

Shirozina wrote:

Thanks for this - I'm very impressed. I use mainly LR for it's efficient workflow but Ninja is looking better for outright quality. It's managing to render more fine detail for a start which makes the demosaicing quality of LR, C1 and DXO look quite crude in comparison. On my 5DII files they look like they have gained an extra 10mp! when you peep at 100%. I've always though the big boys in the RAW processing game have traded off a bit of demosaicing quality for processing speed......

GX1 files and 5DII files look great but it looks like they need to develop support for GH3 files as the colour looks like some out of date C41 neg film.

I have sent an email asking some questions to Picture Code, one of them was about the updates for new cameras and I mentioned the GH3, they said that for the GH3 they are already working on the RAW support. They also said that an upgrade to version 1.1 will be available to download soon.


-- hide signature --

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

That's great news and thanks for letting me know:-)

You are welcome.

Picture Code is a small but trusted and good. We have confirmed this the years the Noise Ninja was produced. They should follow the same good behavior and their interest like others is to have satisfied costumers.


-- hide signature --

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

 Aleo Veuliah's gear list:Aleo Veuliah's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS1 Panasonic FZ1000 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 +5 more
Sgt_Strider Senior Member • Posts: 2,288
Re: Photo Ninja vs Aperture

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

Hen3ry wrote:

in fact you only really need support for one camera -- the one you have. Or the two or three you have. Any other support is just a waste of resources from your PoV is you look at it from a real world perspective.

Cheers, geoff

I don't agree with you. What if there's a camera that I want to buy, but PN doesn't support it? I know odds are pretty good that Adobe will support it. I think PN will need to clarify what kind of cameras they will ultimately support.

I have sent an email asking some questions to Picture Code, one of them was about the updates for new cameras and I mentioned the GH3, they said that for the GH3 they are already working on the RAW support. They also said they expect to do updates for other cameras support sooner than the other programs. Let's see if it is true.

They also said that an upgrade to version 1.1 will be available to download soon.


-- hide signature --

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

Any specifcs as to when they'll fully support the X-Trans sensors? It's good that they say that they'll support more cameras and release faster update, but that's still a bit vague.

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