DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Started Jan 26, 2013 | Discussions
Arky Regular Member • Posts: 433
Re: Stripes

SigmaChrome wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

SigmaChrome wrote:

I'm not seeing these "stripes" in either my SD1M or DP2M. Show some examples.

Maceo sent me some X3F files, as told in this post
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50785796

But, there are two images in the DP3M gallery with the same problems.
Its image 02 and 30 here: http://www.sigma-dp.com/DP3Merrill/samplephoto.html

Its very nice to hear that you dont have the problems. It would be very useful for me to get some X3F files from your two cameras. There have to be some rather dark and even areas.

Why? To what purpose Roland? So that IF you did find some so-called "stripes" you could do what, exactly...? Heap more criticism of Foveon...? To what end? You don't even own a Sigma camera - so you have no stake in it - ipso-facto - you have nothing to gain OR lose by continuing you're endless critique. So for me it would be a waste of time, at best. So I’ll decline.

It seems to me that you camera may have stripes and you have your suspicions about it. You claim it doesn't, but you get up on your high horse and refuse to back up your claims by providing a simple raw file.

Why not back up your claims that your camera is stripe free? Could it be that spreading the factual truth is not your primary motivation here?

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SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 10,836
Re: Stripes

Arky wrote:

It seems to me that you camera may have stripes and you have your suspicions about it. You claim it doesn't, but you get up on your high horse and refuse to back up your claims by providing a simple raw file.

I have no suspicions.

Why not back up your claims that your camera is stripe free? Could it be that spreading the factual truth is not your primary motivation here?

It could be that it's exactly as I have said. I don't have the time or the inclination. And just because you dare me to won't change that. Find someone else to harass.

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SandyF Forum Pro • Posts: 14,941
Re: Stripes?

Roland Karlsson wrote:

SigmaChrome wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

I am currently deciding what to do

  • Buy an SD1M with one good lens. Then I get an IR camera for free.
  • Buy a DP2M and a close up lens
  • Buy a DP3M, mainly due to its better close up capability
  • Buy no Sigma camera at all

Based on your previous form, Roland, you'll choose the last option. But, go ahead and surprise us all!

You are probably right

But - I can reveal that there is just one little tiny thing right now that is the main reason why I hesitate. Its the stripes. I have looked at a RAW file of an image with stripes, and the stripes in the "blue" layer are VERY strong. There is no stripes in any other layer. So - some elaborate stripe removal algorithm is needed, which I assume the newer SPP does. Thats strange, and not so fun.

This issue needs investigation.

And if my observation is true, and I cannot device any reliable fix, then I doubt I will buy any Merrill camera.

The biggest question is of course if this stripes problem varies between cameras. Maybe sensors with such strong stripes are broken, and should be returned.

Just for clarification, what do you guys in this sub-thread mean by "stripes"?

BANDING?

for example in sky areas?

FWIW I shot the DP2Merrill at ISO200 all during the Death Valley trip, and I see some grainy type noise in the blue sky areas in many photos (see even the top Artists Palette series on my flickr link below... original (large) size is online.

But I honestly don't see a banding pattern in this 'noise' sky area. It doesn't show in the prints I've made to date, but I haven't printed large yet.

I understand that 'sky noise' is less at ISO100 than at ISO200. But I don't think I have any DV sky shots at ISO100 for comparison. Long way to travel back to Death Valley for a "do over" but I wish I had some shots at ISO100 AND had used [ ] metering rather than eval AND had set some +EV. Most of my DP2Merrill shots are too dark.... my fault. I'm bad at looking at histograms.

Anyway, please clarify what you mean by "stripes."

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current, Death Valley photos mentioned)

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Arky Regular Member • Posts: 433
Re: Stripes

SigmaChrome wrote:

Arky wrote:


It seems to me that you camera may have stripes and you have your suspicions about it. You claim it doesn't, but you get up on your high horse and refuse to back up your claims by providing a simple raw file.

I have no suspicions.

I do.

Why not back up your claims that your camera is stripe free? Could it be that spreading the factual truth is not your primary motivation here?

It could be that it's exactly as I have said. I don't have the time or the inclination. And just because you dare me to won't change that. Find someone else to harass.

You have managed to post to these forums 2.91 times a day for the last 5 1/2 years but you you don't have time to back up your claims. Right.

You also have no inclination to back up your claims with easily supplied evidence. Hmm...

You talk a lot, but when asked to back up your claims with evidence you call it harassment.

Man up Vitee. If what what you say is true, I will be the first to apologize publicly for doubting your veracity.

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SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 10,836
Re: Stripes

Arky wrote:

SigmaChrome wrote:

Arky wrote:


It seems to me that you camera may have stripes and you have your suspicions about it. You claim it doesn't, but you get up on your high horse and refuse to back up your claims by providing a simple raw file.

I have no suspicions.

I do.

Why not back up your claims that your camera is stripe free? Could it be that spreading the factual truth is not your primary motivation here?

It could be that it's exactly as I have said. I don't have the time or the inclination. And just because you dare me to won't change that. Find someone else to harass.

You have managed to post to these forums 2.91 times a day for the last 5 1/2 years but you you don't have time to back up your claims. Right.

You also have no inclination to back up your claims with easily supplied evidence. Hmm...

You talk a lot, but when asked to back up your claims with evidence you call it harassment.

Man up Vitee. If what what you say is true, I will be the first to apologize publicly for doubting your veracity.

This is intimidation - plain and simple. How dare you tell me to "Man up". How utterly pathetic. Who the blazes do you think you are? Grow up. This is not a dictatorship. You have no right to demand anything from me. And I have nothing to prove to you.

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MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,384
Pot calling kettle...
1

<...>

Arky wrote:


You have managed to post to these forums 2.91 times a day for the last 5 1/2 years but you you don't have time to back up your claims. Right.

Note this is coming from a user who has posted just *13* times in the last five months...

I know which of the two I'd be inclined to believe more.

It's rather hilarious (and rude) that a suspiciously alt-looking account such as yours is using someone's heavily contributing to the forum against him!

You also have no inclination to back up your claims with easily supplied evidence. Hmm...

He posts photos, you could look at those you know.  Yet you expend no effort while asking him to exert himself substantially.  Hmm...

You talk a lot, but when asked to back up your claims with evidence you call it harassment.

No, he calls harassment harassment.  And it seems he has your number cold.

Man up Vitee. If what what you say is true, I will be the first to apologize publicly for doubting your veracity.

Over time I have come to realize the primary goal of trolls is to steal time away from productive people into meaningless and foolhardy pursuits.   Sorry if the productive people have no interest in photographic snipe hunts.  If you really cared you'd shoot your own images and find results of banding to share.  What's the matter, no inclination to spend your own time and effort?

This very thread is a similar attempted time waster, so I'll leave you to it as I've expended all the mental capital it's worth.

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Arky Regular Member • Posts: 433
Re: Stripes

ubting your veracity.

This is intimidation - plain and simple. How dare you tell me to "Man up". How utterly pathetic. Who the blazes do you think you are? Grow up. This is not a dictatorship. You have no right to demand anything from me. And I have nothing to prove to you.

You feel intimidated by me? I have no power over you, believe me I am not a threat to anyone. You are of course correct that I have no right to demand anything from you, but when you make an easily verifiable ascertain and then refuse to back it up with evidence it is your credibility that suffers, not mine.

I would like to know whether the stripes are common or rare in the latest sensors others are probably curious too.

You have an opportunity to add to the collective knowledge of this group but instead of seizing this chance you just want to jump in and slam Roland because he doesn't own a Sigma camera. Your behavior toward Roland is tiresome and uncalled for. You do own Sigma cameras but your credibility is suspect. Unlike Roland in both respects.

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SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 10,836
Re: Stripes

Arky wrote:


ubting your veracity.

This is intimidation - plain and simple. How dare you tell me to "Man up". How utterly pathetic. Who the blazes do you think you are? Grow up. This is not a dictatorship. You have no right to demand anything from me. And I have nothing to prove to you.

You feel intimidated by me? I have no power over you, believe me I am not a threat to anyone. You are of course correct that I have no right to demand anything from you, but when you make an easily verifiable ascertain and then refuse to back it up with evidence it is your credibility that suffers, not mine.

I would like to know whether the stripes are common or rare in the latest sensors others are probably curious too.

You have an opportunity to add to the collective knowledge of this group but instead of seizing this chance you just want to jump in and slam Roland because he doesn't own a Sigma camera. Your behavior toward Roland is tiresome and uncalled for. You do own Sigma cameras but your credibility is suspect. Unlike Roland in both respects.

Of course, Arky, you're a saint. Have a nice life.

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Arky Regular Member • Posts: 433
Re: Pot calling kettle...

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:


<...>

Arky wrote:


You have managed to post to these forums 2.91 times a day for the last 5 1/2 years but you you don't have time to back up your claims. Right.

Note this is coming from a user who has posted just *13* times in the last five months...

You are right, I usually don't post unless I feel like I can be helpful. Unfortunately, those times are few and far between around here. I am strictly a hobbyist photographer and truthfully not a very good one. I enjoy learning about optics and photography though, and I do spend money on it. That is one reason I frequent this forum, to determine where to best spend my disposable income.

I know which of the two I'd be inclined to believe more.

I don't think I've asked you or anyone else to believe anything I've said.

It's rather hilarious (and rude) that a suspiciously alt-looking account such as yours is using someone's heavily contributing to the forum against him!

Yes I was rude to Vitee, but he is constantly rude to Roland and others that are less than entirely enthusiastic about all things Sigma. If someone constantly plays in the gutter they shouldn't expect to come out smelling like a rose.

It's hilarious that such a prolific poster pleads lack of time, he could at least be honest as to the reason for refusing my request. Or just ignore me completely, like he did Roland.

You were rude to me by calling me lazy because I didn't equalize the FOV when comparing a single 50mm lens on two cameras with differing size sensors. I still don't know how I was supposed to accomplish that equalization though.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/32287700

Even so, if you feel I'm unnecessarily rude please accept my apologies.  I don't mean to come off as rude to anyone without good reason.

Laurence Matson falsely accused me once, he apologized publicly in this forum, for which I respect him greatly. Apologies are often due in this forum I don't see them often enough.

You also have no inclination to back up your claims with easily supplied evidence. Hmm...

He posts photos, you could look at those you know. Yet you expend no effort while asking him to exert himself substantially. Hmm...

Nobody would want to see my photos I'm sure. I do however contribute to the group in my own way. I have a SD14 dis-assembly gallery online for many years now and it is still quite popular.

http://www.pbase.com/bigflat/sd14_disassembly

I have posted a comparison of the SD14 and a Canon 15MP camera when such comparisons were rare, and made the raws available to download for everyone.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/30106778

I am always willing to help anyone with SA to EF or EF to SA mount conversion questions. Check my posting history and you will find numerous examples. I contribute to the group when I can, but as you point out, that's not very often.

I don't consider asking Vitee to make one of his raw files available to be asking him to "exert himself substantially". When he could be generous and helpful, he chooses to be petty.

You talk a lot, but when asked to back up your claims with evidence you call it harassment.

No, he calls harassment harassment. And it seems he has your number cold.

I guess if that's your opinion of harassment okay then. It's not mine.

Man up Vitee. If what what you say is true, I will be the first to apologize publicly for doubting your veracity.

Over time I have come to realize the primary goal of trolls is to steal time away from productive people into meaningless and foolhardy pursuits. Sorry if the productive people have no interest in photographic snipe hunts. If you really cared you'd shoot your own images and find results of banding to share. What's the matter, no inclination to spend your own time and effort?

So now I'm a troll? I have never chimed in with the frequent Foveon - Bayer debates one way or another. I have owned 5 sigma cameras and still own 4, that should tell you something. I'm not unceasingly pro Sigma but I don't bash them either.

I don't own a camera with the new Foveon sensor but I am interested. I'm still investigating and trying to ascertain the truth, warts and all. I don't expect perfection but I would like to have a good idea of what I'm buying into. It's tough trying to find unbiased information around here and I think Roland is truly unbiased. If he says the stripes are an uncommon anomaly I will believe him unquestioningly. Anecdotal evidence or self-serving testimony is always suspect in my opinion.

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Antone
Antone Senior Member • Posts: 1,211
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

kuri wrote:

Just my two cents, but I'm of the opinion that buying fixed lens cameras are actually worse investments than lenses.. I agree that the DPs cost similar to L lenses, but L lenses (or lenses in general) will still remain relevant even when sensor technologies improve.

Well, my FD L lenses have been collecting dust for about 20 years now. I guess I could buy a ILC and FD adapter, though.

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Tony-S

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,080
Re: Stripes?

SandyF wrote:

Just for clarification, what do you guys in this sub-thread mean by "stripes"?

BANDING?

for example in sky areas?

FWIW I shot the DP2Merrill at ISO200 all during the Death Valley trip, and I see some grainy type noise in the blue sky areas in many photos (see even the top Artists Palette series on my flickr link below... original (large) size is online.

But I honestly don't see a banding pattern in this 'noise' sky area. It doesn't show in the prints I've made to date, but I haven't printed large yet.

I understand that 'sky noise' is less at ISO100 than at ISO200. But I don't think I have any DV sky shots at ISO100 for comparison. Long way to travel back to Death Valley for a "do over" but I wish I had some shots at ISO100 AND had used [ ] metering rather than eval AND had set some +EV. Most of my DP2Merrill shots are too dark.... my fault. I'm bad at looking at histograms.

Anyway, please clarify what you mean by "stripes."

There are two examples on this site http://www.sigma-dp.com/DP3Merrill/samplephoto.html

Look at the lower parts of DP3M-02, under the windows. Its very visible.

In this image: DP3M-30, its not so visible. But you can easily see it if try to recover some shadow details.

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,080
Re: No so true anymore...

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

That's what I don't think will hold true. In the coming years the lifecycle of a lens will not be that much longer as more and more software is introduced into the lenses themselves. There's only so much you can do with firmware upgrades.

You might be right there - and its a pity. One example is that many modern lenses dont have any aperture ring. Makes them rather useless in man adapter scenarios, although Novoflex has aperture support for Pentax KAF in their adapters.

You don't see it much yet but it will happen soon and rapidly I think.

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SandyF Forum Pro • Posts: 14,941
Re: Stripes?

okay, your 'stripes' = what most people term 'banding'

I see it under the windows on photo #2.

I cannot think of any similar banding I've seen come from my DP2Merrill. As I wrote, 'noise' in the sky yes, but it's grainy looking, not stripes (or bands).

Could be because that #2 was beta still, and perhaps SPP hadn't handled it well yet... or my favorite culprit, underexposure.

Let's wait 'til we get lots of users-in-the-field photos with the DP2Merrill before passing final judgement.

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)

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