DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Started Jan 26, 2013 | Discussions
SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 10,836
Re: Stripes

I'm not seeing these "stripes" in either my SD1M or DP2M. Show some examples.

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Harold66
Harold66 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,092
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Harold66 wrote:

well i guess you do not have too much experience shooting moving subjects in the sun

DP-2M (the framing BTW is exactly as I intended when planning the shot):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kigiphoto/8420785751/in/set-72157632623889387

ALSO. When you shoot people on the street for instance with a 40mm a slight mive may not change the composition too much but with the narrower field of vie of a 75mm focal length a LCD. Only makes very little sense for the customer base of this camera

Even just from limited playing with the DP-3M at the Sigma booth I do not think that is so

YEAH right. You are making an opinion for a few minutes at the display booth. It is not serious. It is like those who post what they call a camera review from handling for a few hours at a store ..

let s be serious for a second, shall we?

and this is pure common sense. When you shoot with a small tele lenses , most of the images are going to be shot within a given distance bracket , say 2 to 5 meters ir so

Harold

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,081
Re: Stripes

SigmaChrome wrote:

I'm not seeing these "stripes" in either my SD1M or DP2M. Show some examples.

Maceo sent me some X3F files, as told in this post
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50785796

But, there are two images in the DP3M gallery with the same problems.
Its image 02 and 30 here: http://www.sigma-dp.com/DP3Merrill/samplephoto.html

Its very nice to hear that you dont have the problems. It would be very useful for me to get some X3F files from your two cameras. There have to be some rather dark and even areas.

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3dreal Senior Member • Posts: 2,271
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Oliver_B wrote:

1) Add RAM

Yup, there is some potential there.

2) Add a solid state (flash) drive.

I'll save that for the next machine.

Thanks!

Install win7 ultimate 64 together with a Ram-Disk(a second reduced windows running in quick memory) and it will surpass even SSD-drives. Yes, a complicated but doable task.

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MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,385
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Harold66 wrote:

YEAH right. You are making an opinion for a few minutes at the display booth. It is not serious. It is like those who post what they call a camera review from handling for a few hours at a store ..

It was more like about 30 minutes total.  And it's not like I have not shot other digital cameras with an LCD over my lifetime that had zoom, and thus offered similar shooting FOV and challenges.

let s be serious for a second, shall we?

I thought I was being serious by posting opinions based on actually handling the camera and using existing LCD cameras for model shots.  It's not that big of a leap from shooting models with a DP-2M to a DP-3M.  I've shot both 30mm and 50mm lenses before on the SD-1.

and this is pure common sense. When you shoot with a small tele lenses , most of the images are going to be shot within a given distance bracket , say 2 to 5 meters ir so

Here I'm not quite sure what you are saying...  If you are talking about just shooting models, then that would be the approximate range used - although I would disagree with that range in terms of environmental portraiture or outdoor nudes and so on.

As I said, I am very picky about framing and to me even a few mm does matter.  I have no issues shooting LCD cameras in that regard because I also have eyes and can see things shift either as I move by body with the camera or on the LCD.

But if you're also talking about other uses I totally disagree.  As a landscape camera shooting within those ranges would actually be pretty uncommon - you'd be more likely to be close and shooting macro, or somewhat distant scenes.

Common sense AND practical experience tell me the DP-3M will work for shooting models, I really can't see any arguments to the contrary especially given that you can use the LCD as a viewfinder if you absolutely require that.

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ammca66564 Regular Member • Posts: 415
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

What I'm interested in is the DP?, which will feature interchangeable prime lenses made just for it.

hilld Regular Member • Posts: 119
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Yes, count me in. I already have the DP2 Merrill and the medium telephoto of the DP3 looks very attractive.

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Harold66
Harold66 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,092
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Harold66 wrote:

YEAH right. You are making an opinion for a few minutes at the display booth. It is not serious. It is like those who post what they call a camera review from handling for a few hours at a store ..

It was more like about 30 minutes total. And it's not like I have not shot other digital cameras with an LCD over my lifetime that had zoom, and thus offered similar shooting FOV and challenges.

you are completely missing my point

let s be serious for a second, shall we?

I thought I was being serious by posting opinions based on actually handling the camera and using existing LCD cameras for model shots. It's not that big of a leap from shooting models with a DP-2M to a DP-3M. I've shot both 30mm and 50mm lenses before on the SD-1.

irrelevant on the sd1m you can always revert to the ovf

and this is pure common sense. When you shoot with a small tele lenses , most of the images are going to be shot within a given distance bracket , say 2 to 5 meters ir so

Here I'm not quite sure what you are saying... If you are talking about just shooting models, then that would be the approximate range used - although I would disagree with that range in terms of environmental portraiture or outdoor nudes and so on.

maybe show us some images..and again I am not saying it would always be the case but most often for most models photogs

As I said, I am very picky about framing and to me even a few mm does matter. I have no issues shooting LCD cameras in that regard because I also have eyes and can see things shift either as I move by body with the camera or on the LCD.

your eyes in bright sun on the LCD won t be much use. Maybe you can just show us your portraits with the dp3m when you get one?

But if you're also talking about other uses I totally disagree.

NO, I am not. Please read what I wrote

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Tom Schum
OP Tom Schum Veteran Member • Posts: 8,038
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

ammca66564 wrote:

What I'm interested in is the DP?, which will feature interchangeable prime lenses made just for it.

You and me both, but no telling if or when Sigma will do that.  Because of the completely doubtful timetable for this, I'm thinking more about the DP3M in the near term.

If they do the DP?, I'd like to see them add a fully functional SA-mount adapter so I can use my lenses.  Again, no telling if or when.

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Tom Schum

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kuri Regular Member • Posts: 213
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Just my two cents, but I'm of the opinion that buying fixed lens cameras are actually worse investments than lenses..  I agree that the DPs cost similar to L lenses, but L lenses (or lenses in general) will still remain relevant even when sensor technologies improve.  Barring any refreshes and massive sensor resolution increases of course. Lenses stay relevant a lot longer compared to camera bodies in general and I'm sure Sigma will replace the existing foveon sensor before it refreshes the newly released 35 1.4 for example.

As much as I'm addicted to my DP2M, I know that once a new foveon sensor is out (and new Merrill bodies), I will feel like my existing DP2M has become somewhat obsolete (yes even though it can still take pics). I think you know can see what I'm getting at.

SandyF wrote:

vile on wrote:

Tom Schum wrote:

I'm just wondering how many on this forum are interested in purchasing a DP3M.

So, if I wanted all three focal lengths (19mm, 30mm and 50mm) I'd need to buy three camera bodies. Way to go Sigma, it ranks way up there with your $10,000 SD1 camera.

So to answer your question, a definite no at this time. Sorry.

I don't think it's that outrageous a situation (different cameras for different mm's). Pick which you 'need' or prefer.

I think of them as almost like lenses... it's really easy to pay about $1000 (or more) for a Canon L lens or prime. The DPxMerrill cameras are a heck of a lot lighter and smaller and easier to carry around than most L lenses too!

Best regards, Sandy
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)

Oliver_B Contributing Member • Posts: 850
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?
3dreal wrote:

Oliver_B wrote:

1) Add RAM

Yup, there is some potential there.

2) Add a solid state (flash) drive.

I'll save that for the next machine.

Thanks!

Install win7 ultimate 64 together with a Ram-Disk(a second reduced windows running in quick memory) and it will surpass even SSD-drives. Yes, a complicated but doable task.

Sorry but I am not going to put Windows on my Macintosh Computer   Doubling the RAM did speed things up a little.

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MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,385
Re: DP3M Poll: Who's interested?

Harold66 wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Harold66 wrote:

YEAH right. You are making an opinion for a few minutes at the display booth. It is not serious. It is like those who post what they call a camera review from handling for a few hours at a store ..

It was more like about 30 minutes total. And it's not like I have not shot other digital cameras with an LCD over my lifetime that had zoom, and thus offered similar shooting FOV and challenges.

you are completely missing my point

I thought I answered the point you were making.  Could you re-phrase what that point was?

let s be serious for a second, shall we?

I thought I was being serious by posting opinions based on actually handling the camera and using existing LCD cameras for model shots. It's not that big of a leap from shooting models with a DP-2M to a DP-3M. I've shot both 30mm and 50mm lenses before on the SD-1.

irrelevant on the sd1m you can always revert to the ovf

I was speaking to the point you made about a longer focal length meaning that smaller changes mattered more in framing, which I understand already from framing using different lenses of the same focal length on the SD-1.  That has nothing to do with LCD clarity.

and this is pure common sense. When you shoot with a small tele lenses , most of the images are going to be shot within a given distance bracket , say 2 to 5 meters ir so

Here I'm not quite sure what you are saying... If you are talking about just shooting models, then that would be the approximate range used - although I would disagree with that range in terms of environmental portraiture or outdoor nudes and so on.

maybe show us some images..and again I am not saying it would always be the case but most often for most models photogs

I posted these images a few days ago:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50831350

As I said, I am very picky about framing and to me even a few mm does matter. I have no issues shooting LCD cameras in that regard because I also have eyes and can see things shift either as I move by body with the camera or on the LCD.

your eyes in bright sun on the LCD won t be much use. Maybe you can just show us your portraits with the dp3m when you get one?

What I am telling you is that I have already done a LOT of outdoor shooting (including some models) with the DP-M cameras and sunlight on the LCD is not an issue.  It was somewhat with the older DP cameras, but the newer LCD is not too hard to read outdoors.

If I get a DP-3M I will be doing some model shooting with it.

But if you're also talking about other uses I totally disagree.

NO, I am not. Please read what I wrote

Could you re-phrase?  It honestly was hard to understand exactly what you meant there, if my response was not it I need more information...

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MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,385
No so true anymore...

kuri wrote:

Just my two cents, but I'm of the opinion that buying fixed lens cameras are actually worse investments than lenses.. I agree that the DPs cost similar to L lenses, but L lenses (or lenses in general) will still remain relevant even when sensor technologies improve.

To some degree this is true.  But technology is a beast that changes ALL things.  Look at Sigma's new lenses - they support multi-point microfotcus adjustment via USB collar.  This is a capability that cannot be retro-fitted onto older lenses, so if something like that becomes popular every existing L lens is obsolete.

Not to mention that over time coatings and AF motors and optics also improve, so that older lenses that were once very good on newer cameras with higher resolution sensors, could easy show substantial CA, or not be sharp across the frame.

With a dedicated lens/sensor combo, you get two elements that are properly paired, like a great wine with a meal.

Barring any refreshes and massive sensor resolution increases of course.

But how can you bar that when it defines the whole photographic industry!

Lenses stay relevant a lot longer compared to camera bodies in general and I'm sure Sigma will replace the existing foveon sensor before it refreshes the newly released 35 1.4 for example.

Possibly - but it's also probable that at that same time a new DP camera would come out.  So instead of making do with a 35mm that might not fully perform on a new camera, you could instead sell off the old DP camera, and buy a new one with a lens perfectly tailored to the new sensor in a timeframe much closer to a newer sensor coming out (although a FF SD-1M would probably not result in a FF DP-M camera).

As much as I'm addicted to my DP2M, I know that once a new foveon sensor is out (and new Merrill bodies), I will feel like my existing DP2M has become somewhat obsolete (yes even though it can still take pics). I think you know can see what I'm getting at.

I understand what you are saying, I just don't think lenses have the same half-life they did in the days of film.

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MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,385
Can also use a ramdisk in OSX.

Oliver_B wrote:

3dreal wrote:

Oliver_B wrote:

1) Add RAM

Yup, there is some potential there.

2) Add a solid state (flash) drive.

I'll save that for the next machine.

Thanks!

Install win7 ultimate 64 together with a Ram-Disk(a second reduced windows running in quick memory) and it will surpass even SSD-drives. Yes, a complicated but doable task.

Sorry but I am not going to put Windows on my Macintosh Computer Doubling the RAM did speed things up a little.

You can install a RAM-disk in OSX also.  It does help but even with 8GB of memory you have limited storage space for RAW files.  It might help if you are editing a small set though.

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Tiffles Veteran Member • Posts: 4,974
Very much so

The DP1 still does a great job in the mountains. The DP2m is a bit too wide for my taste to team up with the DP1. I want to say that I had preferred something in the middle between DP2 and DP3 (right now I am still lugging around a Nikon D700 with 50mm, much too heavy for high altitudes) but I will get the DP3m and am sure alongside the DP1 it won't leave much to desire as a "travel set". If I can justify it I will replace DP1 with DP1m aswell, coming to think of it I should sell off my Nikon gear as long as it is worth some dollars

r-1

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MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,385
I'm thinking along the same lines

Tiffles wrote:

The DP1 still does a great job in the mountains. The DP2m is a bit too wide for my taste to team up with the DP1. I want to say that I had preferred something in the middle between DP2 and DP3 (right now I am still lugging around a Nikon D700 with 50mm, much too heavy for high altitudes) but I will get the DP3m and am sure alongside the DP1 it won't leave much to desire as a "travel set". If I can justify it I will replace DP1 with DP1m aswell, coming to think of it I should sell off my Nikon gear as long as it is worth some dollars

r-1

Although I really like the DP-2M, I think the DP-3M may replace it for me - I could use just the 1M and the 3M.

The 3M also has an advantage over the 2M in that you can do closer shots too, also better for landscape.

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kuri Regular Member • Posts: 213
Re: No so true anymore...

Yes, it's not as long as the days of film.  But even so, I'm still assuming that the lifecycle of a lens is still much longer than that of a sensor.  I'd surmise that a successor to the DP series is bound to come up within 2 years.  However, the new Sigma lens refresh will likely be here for a good decade or so.

Point being that over that time: the lens stays relevant for of a good deal longer (with no replacement in sight), whereas you need to keep upgrading the DP body/lens in order to avoid obsolescence (and keep losing money with each buy/sell cycle).

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:


kuri wrote:

Just my two cents, but I'm of the opinion that buying fixed lens cameras are actually worse investments than lenses.. I agree that the DPs cost similar to L lenses, but L lenses (or lenses in general) will still remain relevant even when sensor technologies improve.

To some degree this is true. But technology is a beast that changes ALL things. Look at Sigma's new lenses - they support multi-point microfotcus adjustment via USB collar. This is a capability that cannot be retro-fitted onto older lenses, so if something like that becomes popular every existing L lens is obsolete.

Not to mention that over time coatings and AF motors and optics also improve, so that older lenses that were once very good on newer cameras with higher resolution sensors, could easy show substantial CA, or not be sharp across the frame.

With a dedicated lens/sensor combo, you get two elements that are properly paired, like a great wine with a meal.

Barring any refreshes and massive sensor resolution increases of course.

But how can you bar that when it defines the whole photographic industry!

Lenses stay relevant a lot longer compared to camera bodies in general and I'm sure Sigma will replace the existing foveon sensor before it refreshes the newly released 35 1.4 for example.

Possibly - but it's also probable that at that same time a new DP camera would come out. So instead of making do with a 35mm that might not fully perform on a new camera, you could instead sell off the old DP camera, and buy a new one with a lens perfectly tailored to the new sensor in a timeframe much closer to a newer sensor coming out (although a FF SD-1M would probably not result in a FF DP-M camera).

As much as I'm addicted to my DP2M, I know that once a new foveon sensor is out (and new Merrill bodies), I will feel like my existing DP2M has become somewhat obsolete (yes even though it can still take pics). I think you know can see what I'm getting at.

I understand what you are saying, I just don't think lenses have the same half-life they did in the days of film.

MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,385
Re: No so true anymore...

kuri wrote:

Yes, it's not as long as the days of film. But even so, I'm still assuming that the lifecycle of a lens is still much longer than that of a sensor. I'd surmise that a successor to the DP series is bound to come up within 2 years. However, the new Sigma lens refresh will likely be here for a good decade or so.

Point being that over that time: the lens stays relevant for of a good deal longer (with no replacement in sight), whereas you need to keep upgrading the DP body/lens in order to avoid obsolescence (and keep losing money with each buy/sell cycle).

That's what I don't think will hold true.  In the coming years the lifecycle of a lens will not be that much longer as more and more software is introduced into the lenses themselves.  There's only so much you can do with firmware upgrades.

You don't see it much yet but it will happen soon and rapidly I think.

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SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 10,836
Re: Stripes
1

Roland Karlsson wrote:

SigmaChrome wrote:

I'm not seeing these "stripes" in either my SD1M or DP2M. Show some examples.

Maceo sent me some X3F files, as told in this post
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50785796

But, there are two images in the DP3M gallery with the same problems.
Its image 02 and 30 here: http://www.sigma-dp.com/DP3Merrill/samplephoto.html

Its very nice to hear that you dont have the problems. It would be very useful for me to get some X3F files from your two cameras. There have to be some rather dark and even areas.

Why? To what purpose Roland? So that IF you did find some so-called "stripes" you could do what, exactly...? Heap more criticism of Foveon...? To what end? You don't even own a Sigma camera - so you have no stake in it - ipso-facto - you have nothing to gain OR lose by continuing you're endless critique. So for me it would be a waste of time, at best. So I’ll decline.

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,081
Re: Stripes

SigmaChrome wrote:

Why? To what purpose Roland? So that IF you did find some so-called "stripes" you could do what, exactly...? Heap more criticism of Foveon...? To what end? You don't even own a Sigma camera - so you have no stake in it - ipso-facto - you have nothing to gain OR lose by continuing you're endless critique. So for me it would be a waste of time, at best. So I’ll decline.

Nope. No plans at bashing.

I do it for four reasons.

  1. As an investigation if I want to buy a Merrill camera, or not. I would not accept stripes as soon as I decided to enhance shadow detail. Then its a no buy.
  2. Because I am interested to see what this stripes problem really is about. Its rather mysterious.
  3. Is it something that can be fixed?
  4. If cameras varies in this problem, is there then a method to measure if the camera is defect or not. That would potentially be a great help for those that might have defective cameras. A good argument when contacting Sigma for a replacement.

Regarding waste of time. Its mainly my waste of time. I do the work. You can just upload the images somewhere where I can fetch them.

And I will ask all that uploads images if they wants to be anonymous when I present the result.

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